Why do some people believe and some do not?

[GWH]

Yes, I understand the "calloused" definition and usage. Callouses on the hand for example form from extensive use and the feeling through a callous is much less sensitive than through skin without callous. Thus the heart when used repetitively in disobedience becomes more and more insensitive to God. Both the lexical definition and the word callous are speaking of insensitivity. I normally prefer to translate closer to the actual definition and then elaborate from there. The paraphrasing in translation seems to never end.

Because dull and callous are essentially synonymous, I do not see why you can say one is more exactly the "lexical definition" than the other.

IOW, couldn't/shouldn't you also have referred to "dullness on the blade"? (logically speaking :^)

 

[studier]

Because dull and callous are essentially synonymous, I do not see why you can say one is more exactly the "lexical definition" than the other.

IOW, couldn't/shouldn't you also have referred to "dullness on the blade"? (logically speaking :^)

I say what I did because I read the Lexicons. Also, because I think consistency is good in translation and theology. Also, because many of such tools are more contemporary than old English, which I don't use:

NKJ Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'​

​

NET Matthew 13:15 For the heart of this people has become dull; they are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes, so that they would not see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'​

​

ESV Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'​

​

NAS Matthew 13:15 For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I should heal them.'​

​

KJG Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

​

KJV Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

​

NIV Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'​

​

Please feel free to add your own elaboration. When I showed the Greek and the Hebrew showing dull comparing to insensitive, I thought that would suffice. If you like dull vs. sharp, then I'll let you explain how sharp means sensitive.

 

[studier]

I agree with everything you said, (but I would point out that the only difference between "calloused" and "dull" is that the former can refer to physical hardness on the fingers, whereas the latter can refer to physical wearing of blades :^)

BTW, this all goes back to the word and concept "fat." I'm not in disagreement re: callous, I'm simply trying to take this back to a simple level of translation and meaning. It ends up being a discussion in the figurative use of language which can become almost never ending, especially with English which becomes very circular.

 

[cv5]

I agree with you. I'm quoting just the above to keep it simple, but I'm not negating the omni's you also stated, which are also vital to the instruction.

There's more to this hardening than is usually discussed. That's why I quoted the verses I did. It was not just God hardening but also Pharaoh hardening himself. And in Paul's commentary he essentially tells us that God puts up with things for awhile, until He doesn't and then He as the Potter does what He wills and who are we to speak against Him [in His omni's and perfect essence]. Can we really judge Him? He always comes out righteous.

As @cv5 pointed out, there's even more to the actual story. Additionally to the verse cv5 quoted, I'd note that the words "oppressed" and "afflicted" are used in Ex3 so it's not as if Israel was being treated righteously. Also, when God has Moses go to Pharaoh, He tells him what to say to Pharaoh and that notification to Pharaoh includes "YHWH God" and "YWHW our God" in one brief notification. The narrative is setting up that Pharaoh is refusing YHWH God.

As @GWH looks to be following up with and as you've stated and I've agreed with, IMO human choice is normally in the picture. And I'm calling it 'choice' so as not to get into the 'free will' debacle.

God knows all the facts and functions accordingly as He wills.

Spot on and totally agree.
And factor in that it was God's chosen people (His "firstborn" aka priests) that were being oppressed.
And that Pharoah CERTAINLY KNEW that they were. Pharoah was FULLY INFORMED of Joseph and Jacob, yet CHOSE of his OWN FREE WILL
to stand AGAINST the God of the Hebrews. To DEFY Him, to oppose Him (same as Jericho BTW with the same result!).

So.....God made an example of Pharoah. And glorified Himself while doing so. All perfectly legal, and a perfectly righteous judgment.
Which of course solves Romans 9:17. And indemnifies God of any wrongdoing rather than CONDEMNING God for His actions as the Calvinites do.

Here is the key verse again:
[Exo 3:19]
"But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand.

[Exo 7:13 KJV]
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

[Exo 7:22 KJV]
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

[Exo 9:12 KJV]
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

[Exo 9:35 KJV]
And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

====================================================================

Knowing this is ALSO a KEY to rightly understanding the entire chapter of Romans 9.
As opposed to WRONGLY mis-understanding it as the Calvinites do.

[Rom 9:17 KJV]
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

=====================================================================

Bottom line: Pharoah made his bed and God said OK you are going to lie in it.

 

[studier]

Bottom line: Pharoah made his bed and God said OK you are going to lie in it.

Thanks for all the elaboration. It takes some work, but the answers are quite often there.

 

[HeIsHere]

honestly the more i think about it, the more i am convinced this reply is nonsense.

Augustine is absolutely unrelated to the rcc. You clearly don't know what you are talking about in terms of history.

And Augustine quotes the scriptures and apocrypha exclusively - - not once any Greek philosophy at all - - and even the apocrypha is not quoted alone, but substantiating what is already fully proven by scripture.
you also clearly don't know what you are talking about in terms of what this man wrote.

i do not think you ever read him. i think all you did was once years ago read a blog by someone who hated him, who completely misrepresented and lied about him, and you absorbed it because it was easier than actually examining your own influences.


Just
Like
Every
Other
Vain
Worthless
Human
Ever

Blogs and internet was not in widespread use when I read Augustine, and I read the The City of God and other excerpts of his work when I took philosophy as a first year student.
What "influenced his thinking" it is not just what he quotes that matters.
If you are fan that is your choice but,
You need to grow up, but for now ignore will do.

 

[cv5]

The more important debate is whether God is omnilove or hateful toward half of humanity.

Not much of a debate there man.
God was and is sending out His CALL to salvation worldwide 24/7 day in and day out.
Likewise, Almighty merciful God is ALWAYS available on the spiritual crisis hotline for anyone who asks for Him.

[Pro 1:24 KJV]
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

[Isa 65:2 KJV]
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;

[Jer 25:4 KJV]
And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending [them]; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

[Jer 35:15 KJV]
I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them], saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

 

[cv5]

What IS required are "episodes" harmonizing God's sovereignty or omnipotence with His righteousness or omnilove.

For example, here are two ways of jibing Scripture re the king of Egypt:

1. God allowed him not to let Moses go, and foreknew that would be what the king did, but the EX writer ascribed causality to God.

2. God hardened the king's heart and caused him not to let Israel go, because that was needed in order to work His POS, but He allowed the king to repent--or not--which the EX writer did not realize.

You have to factor in the nuanced mentality of the "Hebraism's" in these passages.
Frankly this is oftentimes LOST on the Greek influenced and Greek saturated mind.

There is a much different mindset going on there that I am admittedly scarcely able to perceive after much time and effort.
But at least I have a small (and hopefully useful) insight into the phenomenon.

We are crippled in this regard IMO.

 

[cv5]

Thanks for all the elaboration. It takes some work, but the answers are quite often there.

Here is another passage that concatenates with the foregoing.
A lot of people are VERY OFFENDED that God is outside of time, is omniscient and a righteous judge.
The "Pharaoh mentality" is nothing new and is in the world today.

Which of course is both the reason and purpose for the 7 year tribulation to come.

[Gen 15:16 KJV]
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

 

[Cameron143]

Our understanding of what constitutes nature is not the same so there is no point continuing hashing that out. As far as I am concerned, man has a human nature and that has never changed. Adam was not made good, he was declared good. How is man "greatly" different? Jesus Christ was like us in all ways except without sin.

I did not assume, I made a judgment call based on the many posts of yours I have read. You have never said in any of those posts that he is not born evil either. And what's more, I did not categorically state you think man is born evil, I said it seemed to me. You say he is not born evil but broken and corrupt. So where is this brokenness and corruption? In his soul or his flesh?

On the basis, the very thing that evil needs to be redeemed, truth, is the very thing it rejects which is what makes it evil. We both know there are things God cannot do, like lie. God does not forsake reality, His word is the reality.

I appreciate your reply. And I'm fine with your explanations of nature and assumptions, although I don't share them.

Jesus certainly was like us in all ways. The verse is Hebrews 4:15 and states that He was tempted in all the ways that we are and yet without sin. To be without sin is very different than to be with sin.

To find the corruption in man we need only look to what God does in redemption to resrore him. Acts 2:37 says that after hearing the message and being pricked in their hearts, they asked what they should do. Hearing involves the mind and understanding, pricking involves the circumcision made without hands, and these together being changed act upon the volition or will...what shall we do? If we move to Romans 6:17 we find this as a pattern of life for the redeemed: ...ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed...the will...from the heart...the heart...that form of doctrine...the mind. Notice, the order is now reversed. In salvation, the mind is changed, then the heart, affecting the will. Now the will proceeds the heart and mind. Why? Because they are no longer servants of sin, but servants of righteousness. When we fall back into sin, it is because we get the order backwards.

Lastly, by your definition of evil, wouldn't everyone qualify as evil at some point? As some are certainly redeemed, and I've shown you the process, can't evil be redeemed?

 

[Mem]

God knows all the facts and functions accordingly as He wills.

The direction of the discussion stirs my want to examine the implications of the word "continually" against the essence of the word "continuously." Man cannot seem to maintain anything very continuously, but God can do so effortlessly.

 

[Cameron143]

Ironically, I agree--but I think it is better to "adjust understanding" or interpret problematic Scriptures in a way that affirms BOTH God's omnipotence AND omnilove rather than cut off the latter, which results in implicit moral blasphemy against the HS.

Omnilove isn't a attribute of God. God is love. For omnilove to be what that means, God would have to exercise love at all times. Was it love that was exercised toward the Egyptians at the Red Sea?

 

[Magenta]

The direction of the discussion stirs my want to examine the implications of the word "continually" against the essence
of the word "continuously." Man cannot seem to maintain anything very continuously, but God can do so effortlessly.

Continually is an adverb that means something happens repeatedly, regularly, or frequently, but with periods of interruption.

Continuously is also an adverb, meaning without interruption or gaps.

 

[studentoftheword]

Thread Title

Why do some people believe and some do not?

Because God knows the Heart of a person and who will and who won't respond to His Persuasion ----His Drawing ---

God in my view is forever pulling on our hearts to come back to Him ==== but we are a stubborn lot and don't want to accept His Drawing -----as we have free will to choose -----

 

[Mem]

Continually is an adverb that means something happens repeatedly, regularly, or frequently, but with periods of interruption.

Continuously is also an adverb, meaning without interruption or gaps.

I meant my comment as a note to my 'bet?' that the word continually is exclusively used with regard to any exertions of man, but only as a starting point of study to the validity of this claim. That is, for example man loses the battle to maintain the law, though he attempts to do so continually. So then, knowing this weakness inherent in man, does God then require continuous faith or, for that man, provide it in order that one can maintain continuous faith. I suspect that He doesn't as much as He is ever present to provide accordingly, as needed, (no more, no less) in accordance to His will. i.e. "My grace is sufficient."

 

[cv5]

I don't really think at root this is too deep a mystery. I think human choice is and remains part of the equation since the Garden. And i think this answers the question this thread asks. I do leave opening for someone to convince me I'm wrong. But only by Scripture and not by Scripture by traditions.

Its not a mystery at all. People have free will and exercise it for good or evil.
And God has free will as well......but His will is ALWAYS GOOD.

[Exo 1:16 KJV]
And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see [them] upon the stools; if it [be] a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it [be] a daughter, then she shall live.

-God in His omniscience KNEW that the point had come that Pharaoh was past repentance and
was now engaging in extreme wickedness
-this being the case, even greater harm was to come upon God's covenant people who He has promised to preserve.
-Gods plan of salvation is inextricably linked to His priestly nation, and it MUST survive.
-God is mandated to DEFEND his plan of salvation as this is the GREATEST GOOD
-judgement upon Egypt was therefore the RIGHTEOUS course of action.....the only righteous course left available in fact

Though evil and darkness was (and is) working, God's necessary intervention ALWAYS leads to deliverance and salvation.
Which of course is why He is our God and no other.

[Gen 50:20 KJV]
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

 

[studier]

The direction of the discussion stirs my want to examine the implications of the word "continually" against the essence of the word "continuously." Man cannot seem to maintain anything very continuously, but God can do so effortlessly.

continually - may be interrupted vs. continuously - without interruption? Part of the discussion is probably based in the word "is" and in the concept of essence. Thoughts?

@Cameron143 & @GWH discussion re: "omnilove" probably has to go here as well as I think Cameron is bringing up.

 

[studier]

Its not a mystery at all.

More succinctly put. I'm using a little rhetoric. Once I stack rhetoric upon rhetoric I end up where you are. Kind of like the earlier NET article drew out re: the Isaiah6 language.

 

[Mem]

continually - may be interrupted vs. continuously - without interruption? Part of the discussion is probably based in the word "is" and in the concept of essence. Thoughts?

This initial stream of thought is all I have at the moment, having become preoccupied with getting ready for work.

"Everything is given from above" comes to mind, and no one can, nor will, continue to "be" without God. He will abandon no issue, but is faithful to resolve it, that is the essence of God's character, in striking contrast to the character of ordinary men....

And

Man [IS] saved by grace through faith... so then if any one is lost, is it grace that is missing?

I'm struggling with my want to abandon my work in serving public cheese plates to the public and my want of sufficient income!

 

[Melach]

Spot on and totally agree.
And factor in that it was God's chosen people (His "firstborn" aka priests) that were being oppressed.
And that Pharoah CERTAINLY KNEW that they were. Pharoah was FULLY INFORMED of Joseph and Jacob, yet CHOSE of his OWN FREE WILL
to stand AGAINST the God of the Hebrews. To DEFY Him, to oppose Him (same as Jericho BTW with the same result!).

So.....God made an example of Pharoah. And glorified Himself while doing so. All perfectly legal, and a perfectly righteous judgment.
Which of course solves Romans 9:17. And indemnifies God of any wrongdoing rather than CONDEMNING God for His actions as the Calvinites do.

Here is the key verse again:
[Exo 3:19]
"But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand.

[Exo 7:13 KJV]
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

[Exo 7:22 KJV]
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

[Exo 9:12 KJV]
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

[Exo 9:35 KJV]
And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

====================================================================

Knowing this is ALSO a KEY to rightly understanding the entire chapter of Romans 9.
As opposed to WRONGLY mis-understanding it as the Calvinites do.

[Rom 9:17 KJV]
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

=====================================================================

Bottom line: Pharoah made his bed and God said OK you are going to lie in it.

Psalms 105:24-25
24 The LORD made his people very fruitful; he made them too numerous for their foes,
25 whose hearts he turned to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.

let me just leave this verse here. something those who refuse to admit its all predestined cant deal with in a reasonable manner

anyhow. since you probably believe God knows everything in the future that will happen which would be called exhaustive foreknowledge.
if you believe this then you are already one of those dreaded calvinists. because whether you admit it or not, if God knows the future with 100% certainty and it can go no other way, and still decided to create a world in which these events occur, then what? that means everything is predestined to go as it is going.

this is the big thing that convinced me. the only difference is: does it all serve a purpose, or not?