Why do some people believe and some do not?
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This initial stream of thought is all I have at the moment, having become preoccupied with getting ready for work.
"Everything is given from above" comes to mind, and no one can, nor will, continue to "be" without God. He will abandon no issue, but is faithful to resolve it, that is the essence of God's character, in striking contrast to the character of ordinary men....
And
Man [IS] saved by grace through faith... so then if any one is lost, is it grace that is missing?
I'm struggling with my want to abandon my work in serving public cheese plates to the public and my want of sufficient income!
"Everything is given from above" comes to mind, and no one can, nor will, continue to "be" without God. He will abandon no issue, but is faithful to resolve it, that is the essence of God's character, in striking contrast to the character of ordinary men....
And
Man [IS] saved by grace through faith... so then if any one is lost, is it grace that is missing?
I'm struggling with my want to abandon my work in serving public cheese plates to the public and my want of sufficient income!
I'll start by saying that in the context of the discussion, God's grace is not missing.
thanks for saying this sister. it was the standard for most (all?) reformers. not just calvin. but the man who God used to start it all.
martin luther actually wrote a book called 'bondage of the will' where he argues against erasmus on the subject.
quote from wikipedia:
"
On the Bondage of the Will (Latin: De Servo Arbitrio, literally, "On Un-free Will", or "Concerning Bound Choice", or "The Enslaved Will") by Martin Luther argued that people can achieve salvation or redemption only through God, and could not choose between good and evil through their own willpower. It was published in December 1525. It was his reply to Desiderius Erasmus' De libero arbitrio diatribe sive collatio or On Free Will, which had appeared in September 1524 as Erasmus' first public attack on some of Luther's ideas.
The debate between Erasmus and Luther is one of the earliest of the Reformation over the issue of free will and predestination, between synergism and monergism, as well as on scriptural authority and human assertion."
for those new to the faith or this subject, synergism means two parties working together while monergism means that regeneration is ONE party working and that is God.
martin luther actually wrote a book called 'bondage of the will' where he argues against erasmus on the subject.
quote from wikipedia:
"
On the Bondage of the Will (Latin: De Servo Arbitrio, literally, "On Un-free Will", or "Concerning Bound Choice", or "The Enslaved Will") by Martin Luther argued that people can achieve salvation or redemption only through God, and could not choose between good and evil through their own willpower. It was published in December 1525. It was his reply to Desiderius Erasmus' De libero arbitrio diatribe sive collatio or On Free Will, which had appeared in September 1524 as Erasmus' first public attack on some of Luther's ideas.
The debate between Erasmus and Luther is one of the earliest of the Reformation over the issue of free will and predestination, between synergism and monergism, as well as on scriptural authority and human assertion."
for those new to the faith or this subject, synergism means two parties working together while monergism means that regeneration is ONE party working and that is God.
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if you actually read st.augustine he goes against a lot of roman catholic doctrines. people may read an old confession of faith and read the word catholic and get spooked by it. but realize catholic means universal and back then 'catholic' was a positive thing. they werent always this bad. thats why the reformation happened, the papists have gone so far in their idolatry that there was no other way but a massive reformation. im not gonna say for sure but i think i remember reading somewhere that luther did not want to leave the catholic church, but he was kind of forced into it, he wanted to reform it from within.
at this point we obviously know, there is no reforming this mess.
at this point we obviously know, there is no reforming this mess.
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Important point. I just read a history leading up to and going a bit beyond the Nicene Creed. The point was stressed that in the first ECF writings it can be seen that catholic essential applied to the earliest days after the Apostles where the job was to simply carry forward the Apostolic Faith.
It's easy to get wrong impressions today.
It's easy to get wrong impressions today.
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It sure does to our ears. Here's a little history of the language. Note the tie to "fat" which is at root in the Hebrew:
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gross
Add "waxed" to it for "waxed gross"
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=waxed
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gross
Add "waxed" to it for "waxed gross"
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=waxed
Short answer: Yes. Long answer:
A problematic issue is reconciling God’s power and love with the fact of evil and its consequence. A person—even a theist (like Cam)—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People (like Cam) who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people (like Cam) to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls (like C--atheist humanity), it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent (atheist) people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons (which some of them act like anyway).
Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle (as the wicked want), they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).
However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28).
God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative--although one took place at the Red Sea).
Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love. Hebrews 12:4-11 offers the clue for harmonizing these two themes. This passage indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline: to teach people (including the Egyptians) to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19) before they die, after which divine wrath will be experienced justly without the opportunity for repentance.
If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what occurred rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of how people should behave. Of course, because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or volition (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (JM 1:13-17, TIT 3:11, IS 45:19).
This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm free will as a paradoxical fact (DT 30:19). It is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd.
Amen!
A problematic issue is reconciling God’s power and love with the fact of evil and its consequence. A person—even a theist (like Cam)—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People (like Cam) who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people (like Cam) to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls (like C--atheist humanity), it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent (atheist) people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons (which some of them act like anyway).
Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle (as the wicked want), they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).
However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28).
God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative--although one took place at the Red Sea).
Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love. Hebrews 12:4-11 offers the clue for harmonizing these two themes. This passage indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline: to teach people (including the Egyptians) to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19) before they die, after which divine wrath will be experienced justly without the opportunity for repentance.
If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what occurred rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of how people should behave. Of course, because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or volition (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (JM 1:13-17, TIT 3:11, IS 45:19).
This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm free will as a paradoxical fact (DT 30:19). It is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd.
Amen!
Well Cam? I said yes in the short answer, and then I explained why the Bible says yes in the long answer. I did not characterize your beliefs at all, but merely personalized the answer for you--as I insert my own name in my mind in the same places yours was. Sorry if I confused you.
(However, at my stage of memory I welcome updates on what was said day before yesterday :^)
(However, at my stage of memory I welcome updates on what was said day before yesterday :^)
Unfortunately your "process" sounds a little too mystical for my taste. I'm a practical person and I find most Christian explanations of how things work little more than platitudes and/or vague generalities. The call is "repent and believe" so the change of mind must occur before believing otherwise how can you believe? The will is central in both the drawing process and after salvation. If you're unwilling to hear, the mind will never understand. And should it be a surprise that God has made man's will central to his existence? Afterall, reality expressed is because of the will of God and we are made as a reflection of Him. If His will is central to His working, shouldn't it be central to ours?
Mark 1:15
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
We are all culpable of evil because we are ignorant but that doesn't mean we are evil by nature or have an evil character. How do you define evil? It is the rejection of truth and replacing it with a lie. If one consistently rejects truth (Christ is the truth), how can one be redeemed? It is the truth that sets us free. Evil can never be free because it rejects the very thing it needs to be redeemed. It is this very rejection that makes it evil. The Lord has mercy on ignorance and unbelief but evil is sent to "hell".
1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
Mark 1:15
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
We are all culpable of evil because we are ignorant but that doesn't mean we are evil by nature or have an evil character. How do you define evil? It is the rejection of truth and replacing it with a lie. If one consistently rejects truth (Christ is the truth), how can one be redeemed? It is the truth that sets us free. Evil can never be free because it rejects the very thing it needs to be redeemed. It is this very rejection that makes it evil. The Lord has mercy on ignorance and unbelief but evil is sent to "hell".
1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
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Rom. 3:10-19 “As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; The poison of asps is under their lips; Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”
Rom. 8:7, 8 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
I Cor. 2:14 “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
II Cor. 4:3, 4 “But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”
Eph. 4:17-19 “This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to licentiousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.”
Eph. 5:8 “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.”
Eph. 2:1-2 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Rom. 8:7, 8 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
I Cor. 2:14 “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
II Cor. 4:3, 4 “But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”
Eph. 4:17-19 “This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to licentiousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.”
Eph. 5:8 “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.”
Eph. 2:1-2 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Many deny a plethora of verses concerning what the Bible teaches of the natural man.
They ascribe to him qualities and abilities that only the spiritual man possesses. They do not know the difference.
And it seems they do not want to know, either.
Some are ever eager to broad brush any they disagree with.
It seems to be like a sport to them.
They ascribe to him qualities and abilities that only the spiritual man possesses. They do not know the difference.
And it seems they do not want to know, either.
Some are ever eager to broad brush any they disagree with.
It seems to be like a sport to them.
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