Why do some people believe and some do not?
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Having thought about this topic many times, I think a good starting point is Jesus’ instruction in John6.
NKJ John 6:59-69 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJ John 6:59-69 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
- John is making certain through repetition that we know Jesus is dealing with His disciples (6:60, 61, 66). So, we’re being instructed about men who were walking with Jesus (6:66).
- At a point in Jesus’ teaching, what He said caused a strong reaction. Many of Jesus’ disciples said Jesus’ word:
- Was hard/harsh/unpleasant
- Could not be heard (most literal definition) (6:60)
- Jesus knowing in Himself that His disciples complained/grumbled asked them if what He taught offended them (6:61).
- Jesus’ next question in essence asks them to rethink – what if you see Him ascend back into the Heavens where He came from? In other words, who do you think Jesus is?
- Then, here’s the point re: belief and salvation:
- Some of these disciples who were walking with Jesus did not believe.
- Jesus ties this unbelief to not having been given to Him by His Father.
- Observation: God the Father determines if men believe or do not believe.
- Then we’re told who our Father never gave to Jesus – those who did not believe and walked away from Jesus for good.
- Then we’re informed about those our Father did give to Jesus:
- They know there is nowhere else to go but to Jesus who has the words of eternal life
- NKJ Ecc. 3:10-11 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
- They know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God (Paul will later refer to this as the only foundation that can be placed – Jesus [is the] Christ (1Cor3:11).
- Jesus says He will raise all who the Father gives to Him (6:39, 40).
- Jesus says our Father must draw men to Jesus (6:44)
- Our Father draws men to Jesus by teaching them (6:45)
- Men who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus (6:45)
- I view this coming to Jesus as parallel to believing in Jesus (6:45 c.f. 47).
- Here’s the point:
- Our Father is assessing those who hear and learn from Him about His Son and believe Him about His Son.
- Our Father determines who believes and who to give to Jesus.
- We believe in Jesus if and when our Father says we believe in Jesus.
- Those who truly believe in Jesus – that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the only one to go to for eternal life, will remain with Him.
- I say truly believe because it seems to me our omniscient Father who is able to assess the thoughts and intents of the heart, knows when a man truly believes, meaning Faith that will endure.
- This true abiding Faith is not the same as the belief Jesus spoke of in Luke8 in the soils parable that believes for a while. Like it or not, our western minds like to think in ways the Bible does not speak. Belief for awhile is belief but not true abiding belief as determined by our Father in granting men to His Son.
- Jesus will go on to explain things like true discipleship, abiding and enduring Faith (true Faith), etc. John will expand on this in 1John. Other writers will instruct and command things on behalf of Jesus that also teach what true Faith is according to our Father and our Lord.
- At this point, I don’t think we can so called lose our salvation – lose what we never entered into. I think men can believe but not truly believe. I think our Father knows everything and all men, knows who hears and learns from Him about His Son and truly believes in His Son, and He grants such men to His Son.
- Jesus says He will raise all His Father gives to Him.
- So, the question is: Have we been granted to Jesus Christ by God the Father? IOW, have we truly believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the only one who has the words of and grants eternal life to men?
- If we truly believe Jesus is YHWH’s Christ (Ps2; Acts13:33 Paul’s actual evangelizing) then we will submit to Him as the highest KING (Ps2) and only absolute Ruler and Lord (Jude1:4) who has been given all authority in Heaven and on earth (Matt28:18) to whom all knees shall bow (Rom14:11; Phil2:10). True belief obeys. This should be a major part of our evangelizing.
- It may well take a lifetime to play this out. And therefore, the concept of having eternal life while at the same time knowing eternal life is granted at the judgment. Assurance with an edge of fearing God as we work with our Father to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil2:12-13) pursuing the resurrection (Phil3:7-21).
If you teach different plan of salvation nowhere found in scripture (regeneration/special enabling before belief for all men throughout all time) then you teach a different Gospel.
There really is no good news because no one can believe it, yet people can believe all manner of other religions and do all kinds of actions but that is the one thing they cannot do. They cannot believe the life giving words of the Saviour!
It is a big deal because it presents itself as a very high view of scripture .... yet this is what they teach...although some are not quite so forthright in their presentation......
........God only really loved the elect enough to save them,
-that Jesus only died for the elect,
-that salvation is only truly offered to the elect,
-that God is the ultimate (and essentially only) cause of sin, evil, and unbelief because he created man to be that way after the fall (but He punishes the non elect even though they were never offered redemption) for His good pleasure I might add
-that no one can believe IN Christ Jesus unless and until God gives or makes them (depending how forthright they are) do it.
There really is no good news because no one can believe it, yet people can believe all manner of other religions and do all kinds of actions but that is the one thing they cannot do. They cannot believe the life giving words of the Saviour!
It is a big deal because it presents itself as a very high view of scripture .... yet this is what they teach...although some are not quite so forthright in their presentation......
........God only really loved the elect enough to save them,
-that Jesus only died for the elect,
-that salvation is only truly offered to the elect,
-that God is the ultimate (and essentially only) cause of sin, evil, and unbelief because he created man to be that way after the fall (but He punishes the non elect even though they were never offered redemption) for His good pleasure I might add
-that no one can believe IN Christ Jesus unless and until God gives or makes them (depending how forthright they are) do it.
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Hmmm.... Seems you don't like being put in a label shoebox. Even IF the label doesn't fit you or only partially fits you.
I TOTALLY understand. Ya know, since I've said about a thousand times I do not consider myself a Calvinist. Yet you continue to try and shoehorn me in with a label.
There are many things I agree with those that call themselves Calvinists. There are a few I don't. I call myself a CHRISTIAN. Born Again from being DEAD.
But I am CERTAIN the majority of them are saved brothers and sisters in Christ.
I think they and myself, has touched on issue that is very uncomfortable to those that want to claim that it wasn't COMPLETELY God, that enabled you to admit your sin, led you to Christ, GAVE you the Faith to believe His Gospel, and quickened your soul, to put the Faith HE gave you in Jesus.
It WASN'T YOU! You were DEAD, not mostly dead.
God did it ALL.
And of course, I wish nothing but a great day to you as well.
I TOTALLY understand. Ya know, since I've said about a thousand times I do not consider myself a Calvinist. Yet you continue to try and shoehorn me in with a label.
There are many things I agree with those that call themselves Calvinists. There are a few I don't. I call myself a CHRISTIAN. Born Again from being DEAD.
But I am CERTAIN the majority of them are saved brothers and sisters in Christ.
I think they and myself, has touched on issue that is very uncomfortable to those that want to claim that it wasn't COMPLETELY God, that enabled you to admit your sin, led you to Christ, GAVE you the Faith to believe His Gospel, and quickened your soul, to put the Faith HE gave you in Jesus.
It WASN'T YOU! You were DEAD, not mostly dead.
God did it ALL.
And of course, I wish nothing but a great day to you as well.
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Buttons not working on Windows computers, so 'Informative'
What are the effects of this?
An example: I met a guy & his 9-year-old son walking one day. Somehow the conversation went quickly into Christ. The guy was so proud of his son because his son prayed all the time to be one of the elect. He could tell where some of my questions began, so he promptly ended the discussion.
What are the effects of this?
An example: I met a guy & his 9-year-old son walking one day. Somehow the conversation went quickly into Christ. The guy was so proud of his son because his son prayed all the time to be one of the elect. He could tell where some of my questions began, so he promptly ended the discussion.
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I have never deeply studied what Calvinists believe.
Everything I know about them I've read here on CC over the years. And as I've said, much of it I agree with, some of it I don't.
I just know on this issue, God gave us the Faith to believe. I'm probably even OK with saying that means He chose us. There is plenty of Scripture to back that up.
Ask yourself. WHY do you believe?
Everything I know about them I've read here on CC over the years. And as I've said, much of it I agree with, some of it I don't.
I just know on this issue, God gave us the Faith to believe. I'm probably even OK with saying that means He chose us. There is plenty of Scripture to back that up.
Ask yourself. WHY do you believe?
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Here's an anecdote.
Years ago a cousin, who is a great by guy worldly standards, I could spend hours talking about all the wonderful things he has done for others, and I had a conversation about God, the Bible and the Gospel.
We both went to the same Catholic Grammar school, and were moderately knowledgeable about the Basics. Albeit through a Catholic lens.
This convo took place 20 yrs. after we left that school.
During this talk, he said he fully understands the concepts of the Gospel, but had NO FAITH to believe it was true, and literally couldn't understand how I believed, but actually wished he had the Faith to believe.
Now, I'm NOT saying he will NEVER believe. The Lord may do something to him and in him, to gift him the faith. But for now, he simply doesn't have the Faith to believe.
Further, I couldn't explain how I believed. The Word seems so crystal clear to me, and I believe it.
And that's exactly what Scripture tells us. The natural man is INCAPABLE of believing UNTIL the LORD does a work in him.
Years ago a cousin, who is a great by guy worldly standards, I could spend hours talking about all the wonderful things he has done for others, and I had a conversation about God, the Bible and the Gospel.
We both went to the same Catholic Grammar school, and were moderately knowledgeable about the Basics. Albeit through a Catholic lens.
This convo took place 20 yrs. after we left that school.
During this talk, he said he fully understands the concepts of the Gospel, but had NO FAITH to believe it was true, and literally couldn't understand how I believed, but actually wished he had the Faith to believe.
Now, I'm NOT saying he will NEVER believe. The Lord may do something to him and in him, to gift him the faith. But for now, he simply doesn't have the Faith to believe.
Further, I couldn't explain how I believed. The Word seems so crystal clear to me, and I believe it.
And that's exactly what Scripture tells us. The natural man is INCAPABLE of believing UNTIL the LORD does a work in him.
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Yes, important question. I'll answer in a moment.
God giving us Faith is not as explicit in the Text as you seem to be presenting it. It deserves a close review of all the Scriptures used to argue from both sides. Anytime I ask on CC or other sites if someone wants to go through each of the Scriptures used in the debate, I get no takers who will not ultimately devolve into fallacious argumentation, mainly personal attacks.
Re: your question, I'll look at it experientially, brief version, and try to tie some Scripture in along the way:
- When I was very young, I recall laying in a field wondering where all my senses were taking in came from. I never rejected this nor what I had heard about there being God. There's more involved here, but this is a start (Rom1).
- After living an ungodly life for the next 20-30 years I ended up in the fetal position on the floor realizing the mess of a life I was living was due to choices I had made in who and what to listen to and what to do. This was my conversion point, and I had learned enough about God and Jesus Christ - the Gospel - to know where to go in prayer (the Prodigal discussions seem pertinent).
- I believed because I came to the point in life that nothing in this world makes sense. To me there were no ultimate answers in the world and men were basically stupid about such things and were putting out constantly so much recycled information every decade or so, calling themselves or others calling them experts, but their guidance was basically bs. God made sense to me as the only and ultimate guide re: life (the Psalms & Isaiah that speak of a contrite spirit seem pertinent).
- I think as I wrote in #884 (some formatting was lost) God drew me though teaching me through life and word about His Son, and I finally heard and learned and abidingly believed/submitted and He granted me to Jesus the Christ, the Son of God, the only One who has the words (from the Father) re: eternal life.
- Within this I can speak about how Faith comes.
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I agree. The problem ......is that mankind can REJECT it. It's equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.
God opens the eyes and ears of ALL. Equal privilege.
Take it or leave it. Equal opportunity.
John 16:8-9
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Matt 27:51
And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
John 12:32
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”
2 Cor 6:2
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Acts 16:31~~~Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved....
Equal privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.
God opens the eyes and ears of ALL. Equal privilege.
Take it or leave it. Equal opportunity.
John 16:8-9
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Matt 27:51
And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
John 12:32
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”
2 Cor 6:2
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Acts 16:31~~~Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved....
Equal privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.
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This can simply be discussion from a learned perspective and empty wishes from someone who does not desire to believe - a.k.a. obey the Truth - the Good News from God about His Son. To "fully understand" and reject is simply sin that remains.
And this simply sounds to me like more learned, likely erroneous conclusion that might be flushed out through a willing openness to Scripture, one way or the other.
Understood. It can seem mysterious and there seems to be no set or singularized experience. It would take more info to even begin to discuss it.
That's a Calvinistic interpretation of Scripture I don't agree with.
And this simply sounds to me like more learned, likely erroneous conclusion that might be flushed out through a willing openness to Scripture, one way or the other.
Understood. It can seem mysterious and there seems to be no set or singularized experience. It would take more info to even begin to discuss it.
That's a Calvinistic interpretation of Scripture I don't agree with.
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