Why do some people believe and some do not?

[Magenta]

Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[Magenta]

From Ephesians 1 According to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, God has made known to us the mystery of His will, which He purposed in Christ before the foundation of the world. In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him Who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory. .

 

[Magenta]

We put on the righteousness of Christ. “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” You were dead in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. The Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it. If Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[Kroogz]

but that is not what God says here, at all.

God says,

Go, and tell this people, ​

Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.​

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; ​

lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​

​

we are not writing a scripture of things we think God should have said, mr. Thompson.
we are reading a scripture of things God has actually said.

I agree. And we know God from His word. He Is benevolent and fair/just.
Equal opportunity for ALL. Some come to Jesus with a gentle nudge. And some need to hit a BRICK WALL. God puts whatever it takes in front of us to get our attention.

He is in the saving business. And if some people take a BRICK WALL to get their attention......He gives them a BRICK WALL.......Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears......to be healed.

 

[PaulThomson]

What Scripture do you believe disqualifies the perspective that God does not desire to harden hearts when He does harden hearts?

I currently think it's as I posited to @GWH. Based upon His Righteousness and Justice for example, He ultimately has to be said to desire hardening hearts because He does harden hearts that self-initiate the hardening process. Either this or He does what He does not desire since He does harden hearts.

I think desire works both ways in a creation that has both good and bad.

"
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9
"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:2

God wanting to make hearts harder seems to go against the flow of these two texts.

When I insist that my son leave his game and do his chores, and I push that demand unrelentingly, and he hardens his heart toward me and my words... I want him to do his chores and I may end up hardening his heart, even though I do not at all want his heart to be hardened, but rather that he accept responsibility, show respect and serve. Hardening someone's heart implies neither that I was aiming to harden their heart nor that I wanted to harden their heart.

 

[Magenta]

"
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9
"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:2

God wanting to make hearts harder seems to go against the flow of these two texts.

When I insist that my son leave his game and do his chores, and I push that demand unrelentingly, and he hardens his heart toward me and my words... I want him to do his chores and I may end up hardening his heart, even though I do not at all want his heart to be hardened, but rather that he accept responsibility, show respect and serve. Hardening someone's heart implies neither that I was aiming to harden their heart nor that I wanted to harden their heart.

God specifically says He is going to harden Pharaoh's heart.

Furthermore, He tells us why. Too bad you cannot accept what the text says.

Instead you subtract from it and add your own ideas instead.

Nothing has changed with you.

 

[PaulThomson]

You're still giving him an imperative: an imperative is an imperative, even if it has a qualifier.

but in Isaiah there is no "if"

you are not at all being persuasive; in fact, your position is looking weaker and weaker and weaker with every argument you try. to be expected, since, you are trying to argue God's word isn't what it says.

The word of God does not exhaustively record all the details contributing to the events a particular text reports. The text does not need to tell us what Isaiah was thinking, for Isaiah to have been thinking something that God took into account in his addressing Isaiah. We are given a limited sketch of events. We all imagine a context surrounding the recorded details. And those imagined contexts give different nuances to the scant details we have been given. None of us can be certain that our imaged extra-biblical details were part of the actual context. The best we can do is to share our different perspectives and choose those aspects from our and others' perspectives that make most sense to us of the text and seem to best fit with the entire revelation.

 

[PaulThomson]

but that is not what God says here, at all.

God says,

Go, and tell this people, ​

Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.​

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; ​

lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​

​

we are not writing a scripture of things we think God should have said, mr. Thompson.
we are reading a scripture of things God has actually said.

We agree wit you on what God said. I disagree on the exact meaning of the words God said.

 

[PaulThomson]

the horses in the ark were not there by their will, or even by Noah's, but by God's.

Romans 9:16​

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.​

​

​

You have no way of proving the animals came into the ark against their will, coerced by God.

 

[PaulThomson]

no, you are projecting into me what you think must be the conclusion of the tearing down of your eisegwtical presuppositions.

your objections are not taking into account what the scripture literally says: God indeed hardens hearts, closes eyes, shuts ears and gives a spirit of stupor.
i am not speculatively arguing about what may or may not lead up to these actions; i am confirming and showing that it is indeed true, just as He has written.

I agree that "God indeed hardens hearts, closes eyes, shuts ears and gives a spirit of stupor." We disagree on what those words mean. There is not just one sense in which God can harden hearts, close eyes, shut ears and give a spirit of stupor. I have shown hiow we use the same grammatical construction do describe someone reacting to what we do by hardening their own heart, closing their own eyes, shutting their own ears, and confusing themselves.

 

[PaulThomson]

What Scripture do you believe disqualifies the perspective that God does not desire to harden hearts when He does harden hearts?

I currently think it's as I posited to @GWH. Based upon His Righteousness and Justice for example, He ultimately has to be said to desire hardening hearts because He does harden hearts that self-initiate the hardening process. Either this or He does what He does not desire since He does harden hearts.

I think desire works both ways in a creation that has both good and bad.

If I can harden someone's heart while trying to help them understand some issue, and anticipate doing so, without my deliberately aiming to harden their hearts, then God can also harden someone's heart while trying to help them understand something, and anticipate doing so, without Him deliberately aiming to harden their hearts.

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you believe the reason is for this?

-Some people are more spiritually inclined?

-Some people are chosen before the foundation of the world?

-Some people just love their sin and refuse to turn from it?

My opinion is:
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

God's grace gives light to everyman but some refuse to humble themselves:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Mt13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

jn10: 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[Magenta]

Mt13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

jn10: 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a mind to understand, eyes to see, or ears to hear.

Not to you... just saying that the Lord gives eyes to see and ears to hear. So many deny this.

Luke 8:10
He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others
I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’"

 

[Kroogz]

If I can harden someone's heart while trying to help them understand some issue, and anticipate doing so, without my deliberately aiming to harden their hearts, then God can also harden someone's heart while trying to help them understand something, and anticipate doing so, without Him deliberately aiming to harden their hearts.

The differing premises on how we view God is the stumbling block.

God hardening hearts..

Reformed premise~~To show His wrath. To show His Judgement. To show He doesn't love all. To show the non-elect.

Bibles perspective~~To slap a person so hard that that person WAKES up and chooses Christ.

All the crisis. All the judgement. All the discipline. All the suffering........Is to lead people to HIM. And If people have to go through hell on earth to get their attention.....He does it.

Gods in the business of saving......Judgement comes after our last breath on earth. We all have our chances to believe in Him while physically alive.

 

[sevoldoG]

I would like to say that’s I believe that sometime in eternity past, God took his proverbial pen, and wrote down in the book of life every single soul coming to his party. That book is sealed until an appointed time, and only Jesus Christ has the power to open it . There will be no erase marks, or “fresh ink” . Those names that are written in the book will spend eternity in the bosom of their loving father.
Those names in the book will be imputed with the Holy Spirit, and their salvation will be revealed and sealed at that appointed time. There is nothing we, or any other entity in existence can do to thwart the outcome. Why? Because God said so.
Those names not written in the book will not spend eternity with their maker. They will receive eternal damnation, or justice for their sins. There is nothing that we, or no other entity in existence can do to change that. Why, because that is the will of God .
We have absolutely nothing, zero. Nadda, to do with our eternal destiny.
I don’t believe an all powerful, all knowing, perfectly pure God would put the choice of who is going to tread his holy court, and be in his eternal presence into the hands of a marred, sin-filled, imperfect being. It is heresy to me. It makes a perfect will weak and fallible.
I believe that Christ’s first order of business was not to set an example, but to save with power and surety. Why? Because it was the will of God.
Know the truth, and the truth will MAKE you free. There is power in all truth, especially God’s divine truth.
This is that truth: God is who he says he is, and Christ was sent by him to give eternal life to those names written in the book of life, and there is nothing that you did to earn it, and there’s nothing you can do to lose it. Our salvation is 110% of God, and 0% us. Our belief is imputed by God through the Spirit of truth, and that is the ONLY requirement needed for our salvation.
If your name is not in the book of life, you will never possess true saving faith, and you will get justice, what you deserve.
My belief that I’ve explained will hit with power those that are truly saved, and will be disagreed upon by those who are most likely not.
There are two kinds of Christian’s: those who believe they are saved, and those that believe, and are saved.
“For God created all things for his own good pleasure, yeah, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Prob. 16:4)
Judas was chosen to betray Christ, and Christ said it would have been better that he was not born at all than to be the one to betray the son of man. Mary was chosen to give birth. Both are equally important in Gods will for the salvation of mankind.
When we know the truth, and we serve God out of gratitude and humility because for no other reason than he loved us, he gave us eternal life, and it can and will never change, we can love and please him freely.
“We love him because he first loved us” a piece of scripture that is not out in the forefront of popular ones, but it a powerful one. It confirms the truth, and if you know the truth, than this is why (the foremost reason) that we love God. If you love God for some other reason firstly, I would question the doctrine you believe in, and possibly, even your salvation.
I’m going to shut up now. Thanks for letting me comment. May God bless you and all you love.

 

[Magenta]

I would like to say...

Welcome!

 

[Ballaurena]

What do you believe the reason is for this?

-Some people are more spiritually inclined?

-Some people are chosen before the foundation of the world?

-Some people just love their sin and refuse to turn from it?

My opinion is:
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

God's grace gives light to everyman but some refuse to humble themselves:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

I think that for a person to be saved, both he and God have a part in making it happen. We have verses like in Matthew/Luke about ask and it shall be given, knock and the door will be opened, and how God our loving father gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask. Jesus said no one can come to him unless the father draws that person. All of these suggest both God and the person having a role in the process.

I also believe, though, that because God is outside of time, he maybe knows who is worth spending effort on to draw. There is a verse about how God called those He foreknew.

 

[posthuman]

The word of God does not exhaustively record all the details contributing to the events a particular text reports. The text does not need to tell us what Isaiah was thinking, for Isaiah to have been thinking something that God took into account in his addressing Isaiah. We are given a limited sketch of events. We all imagine a context surrounding the recorded details. And those imagined contexts give different nuances to the scant details we have been given. None of us can be certain that our imaged extra-biblical details were part of the actual context. The best we can do is to share our different perspectives and choose those aspects from our and others' perspectives that make most sense to us of the text and seem to best fit with the entire revelation.

we are discussing Isaiah's thoughts.
we are discussing God’s words.

Isaiah 6:8-10​

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ​

"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" ​

And I said, ​

"Here am I. Send me!" ​

He said, ​

"Go and tell this people: ​

'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' ​

Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."​

 

[posthuman]

We agree wit you on what God said. I disagree on the exact meaning of the words God said.

isn't that a bit like saying you agree God made water wet, you just don't agree that water is wet?

 

[studier]

If I can harden someone's heart while trying to help them understand some issue, and anticipate doing so, without my deliberately aiming to harden their hearts, then God can also harden someone's heart while trying to help them understand something, and anticipate doing so, without Him deliberately aiming to harden their hearts.

We seem to be moving all over the place here, touching on desire vs. doesn't desire, hardens vs. doesn't harden, and then desired results of hardening. And I think we're splitting this on 2 threads so I'm not always paying attention to which one.

The Scripture clearly says He hardens hearts. The Scripture clearly says people harden their own hearts. Do you agree that the Word tells us this?