Why do some people believe and some do not?
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I guess this answers my just posted question.
So, do we all agree that the Scripture says God hardens hearts? @GHW @posthuman
Haven't we already also agreed that people are complicit in and are the first to harden their own hearts?
Haven't we also agreed that all God has to do to harden hearts is to provide opportunity for people to continue to disobey Him?
@PaulThomson Does it really matter how we use the same grammatical construction to describe something? IMO we put too much effort into trying to protect God and keep His character in line with what we think it should be. This is probably what pushed Paul to reference the Potter and Clay analogy. God doesn't need protecting and He does what He wills and His will matches His perfect character in all its attributes and conforms to His omniscience.
I don't see this as being that difficult. He is working to accomplish whatever He wills to accomplish at any given time with any and every person on the planet while simultaneously keeping the universe in order to the most minute particle as He wills it.
I'm not great an analogies or making up parables, but here goes: If I know my neighbor is a thief (he's already in unrepentant rejection of God - he has hardened his heart) and I leave my keys in the car knowing he will steal it, then in effect I have hardened his heart and he has actually hardened his heart even further. The purpose for my doing so may be manifold.
God's purpose in hardening hearts are obviously even more manifold and He doing so in omniscience seeing how it plays out in all its interconnections and through time, as well as His doing so coupled with His perfect character means He can also use such hardening to glorify Himself, to reveal His wrath against all ungodliness, to push people to repentance, to push people to their inevitable end who He knows will not repent and use them all as He the Potter chooses to work all things for good as He defines good.
He wills all to be saved. He wills the second death for all who will not be saved. Love and Righteousness and Justice are perfectly coordinated. His thoughts & ways higher than ours.
Scripture says He hardens hearts. I believe Him. And I don't think He is to be messed with or second guessed and I don't think I'm able to protect Him nor that He needs such.
So, do we all agree that the Scripture says God hardens hearts? @GHW @posthuman
Haven't we already also agreed that people are complicit in and are the first to harden their own hearts?
Haven't we also agreed that all God has to do to harden hearts is to provide opportunity for people to continue to disobey Him?
@PaulThomson Does it really matter how we use the same grammatical construction to describe something? IMO we put too much effort into trying to protect God and keep His character in line with what we think it should be. This is probably what pushed Paul to reference the Potter and Clay analogy. God doesn't need protecting and He does what He wills and His will matches His perfect character in all its attributes and conforms to His omniscience.
I don't see this as being that difficult. He is working to accomplish whatever He wills to accomplish at any given time with any and every person on the planet while simultaneously keeping the universe in order to the most minute particle as He wills it.
I'm not great an analogies or making up parables, but here goes: If I know my neighbor is a thief (he's already in unrepentant rejection of God - he has hardened his heart) and I leave my keys in the car knowing he will steal it, then in effect I have hardened his heart and he has actually hardened his heart even further. The purpose for my doing so may be manifold.
God's purpose in hardening hearts are obviously even more manifold and He doing so in omniscience seeing how it plays out in all its interconnections and through time, as well as His doing so coupled with His perfect character means He can also use such hardening to glorify Himself, to reveal His wrath against all ungodliness, to push people to repentance, to push people to their inevitable end who He knows will not repent and use them all as He the Potter chooses to work all things for good as He defines good.
He wills all to be saved. He wills the second death for all who will not be saved. Love and Righteousness and Justice are perfectly coordinated. His thoughts & ways higher than ours.
Scripture says He hardens hearts. I believe Him. And I don't think He is to be messed with or second guessed and I don't think I'm able to protect Him nor that He needs such.
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The restraining influence of God restraining sin. I agree with this. I wish I understood His complexities better, to put it mildly. I think we can see some of this in Rom1 where He turns people over to their "worthless" (also translated reprobate for example) minds. As Paul says, we then see the proliferation of the degeneracy that ensues.
I did a study once on how this is conceptually discussed elsewhere in Scripture. I found Scripture that IMO says He controls the capacity for human thinking in accordance to Truth.
If He ever allows us to see what He has been restraining and providing to us to mitigate some of the sin damage, I think we'll understand His grace & mercy & love ever better. But that will likely be when He exercises judgment that He has also been restraining, so we'll learn one from the other.
So much to learn...
I did a study once on how this is conceptually discussed elsewhere in Scripture. I found Scripture that IMO says He controls the capacity for human thinking in accordance to Truth.
If He ever allows us to see what He has been restraining and providing to us to mitigate some of the sin damage, I think we'll understand His grace & mercy & love ever better. But that will likely be when He exercises judgment that He has also been restraining, so we'll learn one from the other.
So much to learn...
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If an antichristian says the Bible says the Holy Spirit had sex with Mary, it may be true that God does not need me to defend Him, as if the antichristian's accusation in some way hurts God and makes Him cry. But it is still a good thing for me to explain why I think the words the Bible uses does not men God had sex with Mary, in order to help the antichristian have a better understanding of God's noble character. I believe that the interpretation of scripture as saying that God wills/desires some to perish and actively prevents them from coming to repentance gives a false view of God's character that hinders a healthy relationship with Him developing. That is why I am pointing out the incongruence between such a view and scriptures such as 2 Pet 3:9, and am offering arguments for an alternative understanding of the texts used to paint god in such a light.
If people want to reject these other interpetations of the texts in favour of interpretations that claim there are some people God does not want to bring to repentance and be saved, but actively works with the intention of making repentance impossible for them, God has given them the freedom to choose to do that, but I know I have at east tried to help them have what I see as a more coherent God-honouring and correct understanding of the scriptures.
If people want to reject these other interpetations of the texts in favour of interpretations that claim there are some people God does not want to bring to repentance and be saved, but actively works with the intention of making repentance impossible for them, God has given them the freedom to choose to do that, but I know I have at east tried to help them have what I see as a more coherent God-honouring and correct understanding of the scriptures.
why? i know you aren't a universalist, so you must agree His judgment is both necessary and righteous.
Paul doesn't even dare to address this in Romans 9, saying "what if" He has created some vessels fit for destruction, not saying He has - urging only humility, saying who are we to answer back to Him?
and in this chapter, the the obvious objection Paul anticipated to the gospel, is how can God judge, for "who can resist His will?" - - but notice the apostle does not make your argument when it would seem this is the perfect place to: not denying that God exercises His will to show mercy to who He will and yes also, to harden who He will, he instead answers with 'who are you to question God?'
Paul doesn't even dare to address this in Romans 9, saying "what if" He has created some vessels fit for destruction, not saying He has - urging only humility, saying who are we to answer back to Him?
and in this chapter, the the obvious objection Paul anticipated to the gospel, is how can God judge, for "who can resist His will?" - - but notice the apostle does not make your argument when it would seem this is the perfect place to: not denying that God exercises His will to show mercy to who He will and yes also, to harden who He will, he instead answers with 'who are you to question God?'
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Actually, that is not the obvious objection Paul anticipated to the gospel. A different perspective on that passage is that Paul is dealing with the claim that no one can resist God's will, and rebuking that claim, since He has just given examples of people who did resist God's will: the Edomites and Pharaoh.