Why do theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in prophecy? See Rev 12
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well we knew that because for 5 pages all you've had to add is that you have something in the Bible to talk about but you 'ain't gonna' 
but is this like, losing your game?
just trying to understand what your rules are.
but is this like, losing your game?
just trying to understand what your rules are.
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Revelation 12 is about Israel.
The man child Jesus comes from them who is caught up to heaven.
Israel in the future is protected for 7 years from physical attack.
Which the 7 years period is the time that God causes all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
During the first three and one half years repentance and salvation are still available to the world.
At the end of the first three and one half years it is the falling away first which is the world in response to the Gospel, which they hindered it worldwide, and the time the world only wants to hear the Bible according to the new age movement, and the transgressors have come to the full.
So God allows the New Age Christ to rule over them.
War breaks out in heaven and the devils are cast to earth, which the earth becomes the habitation of devils which is their holding cell, and the New Age Christ deceives all people who do not love God.
The beast makes war against all people who keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus for the last three and one half years, and God brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
For the plan of God is to restore the kingdom to Israel.
The man child Jesus comes from them who is caught up to heaven.
Israel in the future is protected for 7 years from physical attack.
Which the 7 years period is the time that God causes all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
During the first three and one half years repentance and salvation are still available to the world.
At the end of the first three and one half years it is the falling away first which is the world in response to the Gospel, which they hindered it worldwide, and the time the world only wants to hear the Bible according to the new age movement, and the transgressors have come to the full.
So God allows the New Age Christ to rule over them.
War breaks out in heaven and the devils are cast to earth, which the earth becomes the habitation of devils which is their holding cell, and the New Age Christ deceives all people who do not love God.
The beast makes war against all people who keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus for the last three and one half years, and God brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
For the plan of God is to restore the kingdom to Israel.
For those of you struggling thinking Rev 12 predicts future events, let me try to help. First, the signs given in Rev 12 that appear in heaven (sky) were real astrological signs seen on earth. Gen 1:14 teaches "and let them be for signs." Thus in the sky signs are seen foretelling things to come, or things that already came. They didn't watch much TV back then so they watched the sky, especially in the cool of the night as many slept on their rooftops during the heat of summer.
1. Rev 12 starts out being about Israel giving birth to Jesus in 2 BC.
2. Rev 12 then discusses Satan's attempt, through Herod, to kill baby Jesus, all male children under 2.
3. Next, we see Jesus ascend back to Heaven, ~30 AD.
4. The "woman" in v 6 was Christ's bride, the church. More specifically it was the Jewish church then in Jerusalem which fled over the mountains to Pella before Jerusalem was surrounded by Vespasian and Titus in 67 AD, just as Christ had instructed them to do in Mat 24:16. They were kept safe in Pella for 1,260 days until Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD. According to early Christian writer, Eusebius, not one Christian life was lost.
5. War broke out in heaven after the victorious Christ returned having defeated Satan on the cross. So the Devil and his angels were cast out to earth.
6. In v 12, the inhabitants of the earth (Unbelieving Israel) and the sea (Rome) were given a warning of Satan's intense wrath. In 68 AD, Nero killed himself and Rome broke out into a brutal and bloody civil war that last nearly 1.5 years known as "The Year of the 4 Emperors." At the same time, Roman legions surrounded Jerusalem and built siege walls in fulfillment of Luke 19:43 and 21:20 thus entrapping 1.2 million Jews, half of which would starve to death and resort to eating their babies. The siege lasted 3.5 years which many know as "the Great Tribulation" spoken of in Mat 24. 1.1 million Jews would die of starvation, sickness, and by the sword. Those who lived by the sword, would die by the sword. In all 1.1 million or 93% of the non-Christian Jewish population was killed. Over 10,000 Romans were killed in their war with the Jews and many more during their civil war.
7. Prior to the Woman escaping to Pella, the Church endured heavy persecution at the hands of Nero but mostly from their fellow Jewish citizens leaving all but 1 (John) disciple dead by 69 AD. John was banished to Patmos by Nero after Nero failed to kill John in a boiling vat of oil. This is when and where John wrote Revelation, not in 96 AD which was wrongly recorded by French Bishop Irenaeus who had no first hand knowledge and whose incorrect version was repeated by later writers.
1. Rev 12 starts out being about Israel giving birth to Jesus in 2 BC.
2. Rev 12 then discusses Satan's attempt, through Herod, to kill baby Jesus, all male children under 2.
3. Next, we see Jesus ascend back to Heaven, ~30 AD.
4. The "woman" in v 6 was Christ's bride, the church. More specifically it was the Jewish church then in Jerusalem which fled over the mountains to Pella before Jerusalem was surrounded by Vespasian and Titus in 67 AD, just as Christ had instructed them to do in Mat 24:16. They were kept safe in Pella for 1,260 days until Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD. According to early Christian writer, Eusebius, not one Christian life was lost.
5. War broke out in heaven after the victorious Christ returned having defeated Satan on the cross. So the Devil and his angels were cast out to earth.
6. In v 12, the inhabitants of the earth (Unbelieving Israel) and the sea (Rome) were given a warning of Satan's intense wrath. In 68 AD, Nero killed himself and Rome broke out into a brutal and bloody civil war that last nearly 1.5 years known as "The Year of the 4 Emperors." At the same time, Roman legions surrounded Jerusalem and built siege walls in fulfillment of Luke 19:43 and 21:20 thus entrapping 1.2 million Jews, half of which would starve to death and resort to eating their babies. The siege lasted 3.5 years which many know as "the Great Tribulation" spoken of in Mat 24. 1.1 million Jews would die of starvation, sickness, and by the sword. Those who lived by the sword, would die by the sword. In all 1.1 million or 93% of the non-Christian Jewish population was killed. Over 10,000 Romans were killed in their war with the Jews and many more during their civil war.
7. Prior to the Woman escaping to Pella, the Church endured heavy persecution at the hands of Nero but mostly from their fellow Jewish citizens leaving all but 1 (John) disciple dead by 69 AD. John was banished to Patmos by Nero after Nero failed to kill John in a boiling vat of oil. This is when and where John wrote Revelation, not in 96 AD which was wrongly recorded by French Bishop Irenaeus who had no first hand knowledge and whose incorrect version was repeated by later writers.
Actually, what you said totally contradicts Christ's own teaching. In speaking to chief priests and the elders of the people, i.e. the leaders of apostate Israel He says the below. Let me refer you to Mat 21:
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
The kingdom was taken away from apostate Israel and given to what would become the Church. We have the Kingdom, not Israel. Apostate Israel was destroyed in 70 AD by the wrath of the Lamb using Rome as His instrument just as God frequently punished wicked nations by using other nations to conquer them.
Paul teaches the same thing in Romans 11:
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
The kingdom was taken away from apostate Israel and given to what would become the Church. We have the Kingdom, not Israel. Apostate Israel was destroyed in 70 AD by the wrath of the Lamb using Rome as His instrument just as God frequently punished wicked nations by using other nations to conquer them.
Paul teaches the same thing in Romans 11:
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
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The idea that the USA is mentioned in prophecy.......well, maybe it isn't credible because the Bible is a book written by individuals who didn't even know that it existed, so how could they write about it?
Additionally, this overall type of interpretation is a form of narcissism or ethnocentricism, more properly. Individuals and countries often attempt to read themselves into Scripture.
Listen to Steven Furtick if you can stomach him. He is a master of narcissistic interpretation of the Bible. Seems like he believes every verse was written for him, and he is the center of God's world, rather than vice versa.
Similarly, Americans have a tendency to think the same about themselves at some level. It is inconceivable to them that the mighty USA is not mentioned in Scripture. In fact, the teaching of British Israelism arose due to this tendency...several goofs in the 1800's and 1900's claimed that the Western Europeans were actually the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and all of the prophecies of the OT applied to them. Therefore, they needed to return back to covenant faithfulness to God. Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Flurry, David Pack, etcetera, are modern day Armstrongites.
And, then, there are the Hebrew Israelites who claim that black people, Native Americans, and Latinos are the twelve tribes of Israel.
I would really suggest reviewing the following teachings on Revelation. It will take you out of the world of ethnocentric interpretation of Revelation.
https://www.gfcto.com/sermons/series/stand-and-conquer:-the-revelation-series
Additionally, this overall type of interpretation is a form of narcissism or ethnocentricism, more properly. Individuals and countries often attempt to read themselves into Scripture.
Listen to Steven Furtick if you can stomach him. He is a master of narcissistic interpretation of the Bible. Seems like he believes every verse was written for him, and he is the center of God's world, rather than vice versa.
Similarly, Americans have a tendency to think the same about themselves at some level. It is inconceivable to them that the mighty USA is not mentioned in Scripture. In fact, the teaching of British Israelism arose due to this tendency...several goofs in the 1800's and 1900's claimed that the Western Europeans were actually the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and all of the prophecies of the OT applied to them. Therefore, they needed to return back to covenant faithfulness to God. Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Flurry, David Pack, etcetera, are modern day Armstrongites.
And, then, there are the Hebrew Israelites who claim that black people, Native Americans, and Latinos are the twelve tribes of Israel.
I would really suggest reviewing the following teachings on Revelation. It will take you out of the world of ethnocentric interpretation of Revelation.
https://www.gfcto.com/sermons/series/stand-and-conquer:-the-revelation-series
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Well said, UWC... America is not found in the Bible just as Australia can't be found. Japan isn't mentioned either and neither are the Philippines. There is no mention of South Africa either, or Brazil, or Argentina, or Canada or Mexico, etc., etc.
While other ancient countries are often mentioned in the Bible, especially those around Israel and impacting Israel, Israel is by far the primary country written about as they were once "God's chosen people." The Bible goes to great lengths detailing the founding of and events of Israel and Israelites of importance. Logic would dictate that the Bible would also detail it's final demise in 70 AD, which it does. But so many Christians skip over that and instead apply the events of 66-73 AD to some future event putting us right in the middle of these so-called future events.
It would be akin to there being a Super Bowl to be played next Sunday and me talking about it simply as "the Super Bowl" and them suggesting I was referencing a Super Bowl 2,000 years later.
Israel was in focus during Jesus' prophesy. The destruction of the temple and the end of the Mosiac (Law) age was in focus because, "the time was at hand." That generation would not pass until all things were fulfilled.
While other ancient countries are often mentioned in the Bible, especially those around Israel and impacting Israel, Israel is by far the primary country written about as they were once "God's chosen people." The Bible goes to great lengths detailing the founding of and events of Israel and Israelites of importance. Logic would dictate that the Bible would also detail it's final demise in 70 AD, which it does. But so many Christians skip over that and instead apply the events of 66-73 AD to some future event putting us right in the middle of these so-called future events.
It would be akin to there being a Super Bowl to be played next Sunday and me talking about it simply as "the Super Bowl" and them suggesting I was referencing a Super Bowl 2,000 years later.
Israel was in focus during Jesus' prophesy. The destruction of the temple and the end of the Mosiac (Law) age was in focus because, "the time was at hand." That generation would not pass until all things were fulfilled.
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DC,
The Bible mainly dealt with Israel from Abraham to 70 AD (From Genesis to Revelation), from its beginning to its end. There is zero indication of today's Israel in the Bible, NOT ONE WORD ABOUT IT. There is no mention of Nazi Germany and the holocaust which should be shocking to any futurist as only the events of 70 AD were more destructive to a people. It was also the catalyst for Israel to become a nation once again in their ancient lands but there isn't a mention of it in the Bible. Why??? Because the Bible, as an historical document, ends with the end of the Mosaic age with a few exceptions about life in our age, our Messianic age where Jesus was ruling the nations with a rod of iron, which He had been doing for nearly 2 millennia.
Today's Israel is more atheist than ancient Israel in many ways. In many ways, today's Israel is less accepting of their Messiah than ancient Israel as there were many more believing Jews back then as a percentage of their population as there are today (~ 2%). Many nations OF THE KNOWN WORLD are found in the Bible, those that effected Israel. Nations that had no importance to Israel, although ancient, are not named. I challenge you to show me a nation not in existence in the first century found in the Bible such as the USA.
The Eagle (Aquila) was a symbol of Rome, for instance, long before it became a symbol of the USA. You would have to cite me references to your above for me to help identify the nations you wonder about as I did not read this whole thread.
Bottom line is this. We are in a new age of Grace, the "age to come" as found in Heb 6:5, Mat 12:32, Mk 10:30, Eph 1:21 and other places. All the mentions of the "end of the age" dealt with the end of their age, the Mosaic age and the Law. The Bible is very clear that Jesus' generation and that of His disciples, were in the final days of their age. Paul in 1 Cor 10 issues a warning and teaches that all the errors of their forefathers were told to them so that they would not make the same mistakes. These mistakes, or sins, were examples to them. He then goes on to say this in v 11.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
This CANNOT be any clearer. They were living in the last days of their age. Their age would finally end with the destruction of the Temple which was a clear sign to the world that the LAW had passed and the new teachings of Christ and His disciples replaced the Law in our new age. We no longer go to Hades waiting for the restoration. Our connection to God is immediate upon death. When we die and are found in the Book of Life, we immediately go to Heaven. This is the big change between the two ages.
The Bible mainly dealt with Israel from Abraham to 70 AD (From Genesis to Revelation), from its beginning to its end. There is zero indication of today's Israel in the Bible, NOT ONE WORD ABOUT IT. There is no mention of Nazi Germany and the holocaust which should be shocking to any futurist as only the events of 70 AD were more destructive to a people. It was also the catalyst for Israel to become a nation once again in their ancient lands but there isn't a mention of it in the Bible. Why??? Because the Bible, as an historical document, ends with the end of the Mosaic age with a few exceptions about life in our age, our Messianic age where Jesus was ruling the nations with a rod of iron, which He had been doing for nearly 2 millennia.
Today's Israel is more atheist than ancient Israel in many ways. In many ways, today's Israel is less accepting of their Messiah than ancient Israel as there were many more believing Jews back then as a percentage of their population as there are today (~ 2%). Many nations OF THE KNOWN WORLD are found in the Bible, those that effected Israel. Nations that had no importance to Israel, although ancient, are not named. I challenge you to show me a nation not in existence in the first century found in the Bible such as the USA.
The Eagle (Aquila) was a symbol of Rome, for instance, long before it became a symbol of the USA. You would have to cite me references to your above for me to help identify the nations you wonder about as I did not read this whole thread.
Bottom line is this. We are in a new age of Grace, the "age to come" as found in Heb 6:5, Mat 12:32, Mk 10:30, Eph 1:21 and other places. All the mentions of the "end of the age" dealt with the end of their age, the Mosaic age and the Law. The Bible is very clear that Jesus' generation and that of His disciples, were in the final days of their age. Paul in 1 Cor 10 issues a warning and teaches that all the errors of their forefathers were told to them so that they would not make the same mistakes. These mistakes, or sins, were examples to them. He then goes on to say this in v 11.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
This CANNOT be any clearer. They were living in the last days of their age. Their age would finally end with the destruction of the Temple which was a clear sign to the world that the LAW had passed and the new teachings of Christ and His disciples replaced the Law in our new age. We no longer go to Hades waiting for the restoration. Our connection to God is immediate upon death. When we die and are found in the Book of Life, we immediately go to Heaven. This is the big change between the two ages.
The other big change, almost as HUGE, is this. We no longer follow the Rabbinical system for forgiveness of sins. No longer do we have to make sacrifices, and follow the ancient customs and feasts. We have a direct path to forgiveness (except Catholics) to God through Jesus. Think about what a HUGE change that is between the two ages.
The Temple had to go and its not coming back. The Temple represented the Law and the old way. It was so clever how God used the Muslim faith and allowed them to build a mosque on the old temple site thereby preventing the Jews from ever rebuilding it. God doesn't want, nor would He ever accept, the Jews sacrifices in a new temple. Jesus would never go there to be worshiped. If He did, He would void His own sacrifice on the Cross and acquiesce to the Jew's old way, the way He personally destroyed and replaced.
Those of you waiting on a 3rd temple, forget about it. It ain't gonna happen. Can you imagine the reaction from PETA and the whole world?
The Temple had to go and its not coming back. The Temple represented the Law and the old way. It was so clever how God used the Muslim faith and allowed them to build a mosque on the old temple site thereby preventing the Jews from ever rebuilding it. God doesn't want, nor would He ever accept, the Jews sacrifices in a new temple. Jesus would never go there to be worshiped. If He did, He would void His own sacrifice on the Cross and acquiesce to the Jew's old way, the way He personally destroyed and replaced.
Those of you waiting on a 3rd temple, forget about it. It ain't gonna happen. Can you imagine the reaction from PETA and the whole world?
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I would like to say that while I am DEFINITELY NOT a dispensationalist, I do believe it is possible a great, successful evangelism of Jewish individuals will occur just prior to, or at, Jesus' return.
I have no issue with that. My issue is the "separation theology" of dispensationalists that proposes there is more than one people of God. There is only one people of God, both Jew and Gentile, per Ephesians 2 and Galatians 3.
However, this thread is about nations and whether specific western countries are mentioned in the Bible. I don't think they are, and I believe nations like Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation are actually symbolic of God's enemies as a whole. I'm not chained to "literalistic" dispensationalist hermeneutics that claim such references are identifying specific nations
By the way, dispensationalists will assign meaning to symbols when it suits their purpose in perpetuating their doctrine. They won't allow others to do it, though, if the conclusion would compromise their doctrines. They are blinded from seeing their double standards.
I have no issue with that. My issue is the "separation theology" of dispensationalists that proposes there is more than one people of God. There is only one people of God, both Jew and Gentile, per Ephesians 2 and Galatians 3.
However, this thread is about nations and whether specific western countries are mentioned in the Bible. I don't think they are, and I believe nations like Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation are actually symbolic of God's enemies as a whole. I'm not chained to "literalistic" dispensationalist hermeneutics that claim such references are identifying specific nations
By the way, dispensationalists will assign meaning to symbols when it suits their purpose in perpetuating their doctrine. They won't allow others to do it, though, if the conclusion would compromise their doctrines. They are blinded from seeing their double standards.
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Even if it happened, the temple would be an abomination and an idol in God's sight. There is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ. It is not through temple worship.
God caused the temple to be destroyed in order to accentuate that there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ.
That's another reason why I have problems with dispensationalism. Most claim that temple sacrifices will be reinstituted in the "Millennium". Jesus died once for all time for the sins of his people. Animal sacrifices would be an abomination in light of this.
The Scriptures they reference in the Prophets are actually conveying information through the lenses of the Mosaic Covenant. They are prophesying a return to the true worship of God, with both Jews and Gentiles participating. I actually believe this is talking about the Church and the multinational nature of it...but it could also be talking about the eternal state. I don't think it is talking about a literal fulfillment in the Millennium though.
I would criticize one word of your explanation, and that is "rabbinical". I would substitute the word "Levitical". Perhaps you just made a mistake, though. I would associate "rabbinical" with extra-biblical teachings of the Jews whereas the animal sacrifices were biblical; they are simply part of an obsolete system relating to the old Mosaic economy.
God caused the temple to be destroyed in order to accentuate that there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ.
That's another reason why I have problems with dispensationalism. Most claim that temple sacrifices will be reinstituted in the "Millennium". Jesus died once for all time for the sins of his people. Animal sacrifices would be an abomination in light of this.
The Scriptures they reference in the Prophets are actually conveying information through the lenses of the Mosaic Covenant. They are prophesying a return to the true worship of God, with both Jews and Gentiles participating. I actually believe this is talking about the Church and the multinational nature of it...but it could also be talking about the eternal state. I don't think it is talking about a literal fulfillment in the Millennium though.
I would criticize one word of your explanation, and that is "rabbinical". I would substitute the word "Levitical". Perhaps you just made a mistake, though. I would associate "rabbinical" with extra-biblical teachings of the Jews whereas the animal sacrifices were biblical; they are simply part of an obsolete system relating to the old Mosaic economy.
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Glad you quoted the Bible and gave some reliable sources. Instead of just giving your unsupported opinion, again. Wait...you didn't do anything to support your unlikely opinions!
I highly suggest you take a course in Biblical hermeneutics. Then you would have a better idea on how to interpret God's Word, instead of ripping everything out of context to support your erroneous theology, or eisegesis. Greek for "read INTO the text, rather than exegesis, which is to take OUT what the Bible is really saying!
I highly suggest you take a course in Biblical hermeneutics. Then you would have a better idea on how to interpret God's Word, instead of ripping everything out of context to support your erroneous theology, or eisegesis. Greek for "read INTO the text, rather than exegesis, which is to take OUT what the Bible is really saying!
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