Why do theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in prophecy? See Rev 12

[RevelationMan]

Why is it that theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in bible prophecy when it is clear Revelation 12 is speaking about the United States of America? Many bible scholars believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel and the child is Jesus but there are two clues that indicate the woman is the good ole USA. The first is that this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son". The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son. The second clue is that it says "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America. There's much more that could be said but this is clearly speaking about the USA.

 

[Sipsey]

No, nope and unh ugh!

 

[iamsoandso]

I would think the sun nor moon no longer being needed in Revelation 21:22 would mean what of the USA then?

 

[RevelationMan]

it is unclear what that passage has to do with the USA. Rev 21:22 simply indicates that in the new city there is no need for the sun and moon to give its light because the light comes from the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb not the sun or moon.

 

[Dino246]

Why is it that theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in bible prophecy when it is clear Revelation 12 is speaking about the United States of America? Many bible scholars believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel and the child is Jesus but there are two clues that indicate the woman is the good ole USA. The first is that this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son". The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son. The second clue is that it says "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America. There's much more that could be said but this is clearly speaking about the USA.

Welcome to CC.

You're engaging in circular reasoning and anachronism. Somehow you've come to the conclusion that a few words in Scripture refer to a nation that would not exist for 1700 years. I assure you, Revelation 12 is not "clearly" speaking of the USA. The connections are tenuous at best.

Every other time in Scripture that God speaks of nations, He names them. He even named Cyrus over a century before he came to power, in Isaiah. If God had meant the USA, it is likely that He would have said so.

 

[Whispered]

I've heard that same thing about Theologians and America. I looked around and found a group of presumed Theologians that say otherwise.
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4998/t/the-usa-in-bible-prophecy

A very interesting read. I don't know if America is actually in the end times prophecies however, the information there with historic and Biblical references sustaining each point makes it seem plausible. I look forward to what others think after reading it, if they choose.

 

[iamsoandso]

Well they were warm up to 7b and missed the wound being healed...

 

[maxwel]

Why is it that theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in bible prophecy when it is clear Revelation 12 is speaking about the United States of America? Many bible scholars believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel and the child is Jesus but there are two clues that indicate the woman is the good ole USA. The first is that this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son". The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son. The second clue is that it says "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America. There's much more that could be said but this is clearly speaking about the USA.

You start with presuppositions, and then you connect them together with a chain of more presuppositions.

There is no evidence.



A. "this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son"."
No.
You can't just arbitrarily take a word, and substitute another word for it whenever you like.
And if you're going by the fact both words are hominems, meaning they sound the same - well they aren't hominems in Greek, the language in which God gave the text.
If you do a bit of research, you'll find this is the exact same absurd linguistic argument made by the new age Zeitgeist movement to try and prove Christianity is false.

You're altering the actual text by INJECTING english hominems back into the Greek... there aren't any rules of hermeneutics, basic linguistics, or logic which could EVER allow this.


B. "The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son."
Just no.

1. "clothed in the son" is NOT something stated in Revelation 12... so you're building an entire case around something NOT STATED in the New Testament at all.

2. Even if we accept your misunderstanding of the text here, and essentially allow you to completely change the text into something it does NOT say... there is STILL NOTHING in ANY PART OF THE BIBLE to indicate "clothed with the son" actually means "origins in Judaeo-Christian values".

You're just making things up.

After you alter the text in a way which is completely foreign to any rules of language, hermeneutics, or logic, you then go on to draw conclusions that have absolutely nothing to do with any Biblical text.


C. "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America.
This is entirely ad hoc.

Where in the Biblical text does it give ANY indication this verse is referring to the location of flags?
Where?
Nowhere.
You are simply making things up.

1. You are assuming "her" is America, but there is nothing in the text to indicate this.
2. You are assuming "moon" is the literal moon, rather than something symbolic (and the book of revelation explicitly states many of it's terms are symbolic).
3. You are assuming "feet" means "flag", which is nowhere indicated in the text.

You simply, and conveniently, inject all kinds of things into the text which are in no stretch of the imagination actually found in the text.
This is called eisegesis, to just take some outside ideas and INJECT them into the text.
This is the opposite of good biblical interpretation.

..

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why is it that theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in bible prophecy when it is clear Revelation 12 is speaking about the United States of America?

That would be a stretch.

 

[iamsoandso]

The things given to the world that they lust after...

Discovery of electricity,automobile,airplane,Colt,telephone,Rock and roll,bluegrass,country music,Hollywood,atomic bomb, NFL,baseball,video games,computer,internet,w.w.w.,bluetooth,vhs,cd players,electronic components world trade center,debit cards,credit cards,,ect.ect. it's not as if the current affairs can be blamed on someone else.

 

[RevelationMan]

this video shows the United States of America as depicted in Revelation 12 and illustrates many of the key concepts in Revelation. It also has displays from passages out of Luke and Peter

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/thedayofthelord.mp4

 

[maxwel]

Guys, we don't need to debate obscure bits of prophecy to know America is all messed up.

This is obvious from the normal parts of scripture that we can easily understand.
We can see that America is devolving into all kinds of sin.

But we don't need to debate some obscure bits of prophecy to know this.

It's obvious.

 

[JaumeJ]

Why is it that theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in bible prophecy when it is clear Revelation 12 is speaking about the United States of America? Many bible scholars believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel and the child is Jesus but there are two clues that indicate the woman is the good ole USA. The first is that this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son". The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son. The second clue is that it says "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America. There's much more that could be said but this is clearly speaking about the USA.

The understanding here is lacking on the founding fathers intentions in the founding of the USA. History has been effectively revised.

 

[iamsoandso]

History is astounding I think. You take an state like Mississippi and tell the stories of grandfathers and their sons who were slaves for generations in their plantations but then in the same history books they say that Mississippi became a state in 1817,then say in a different chapter that the Civil War ended in 1865.I suppose that from the time Mississippi became an state and was dwelt in and the time slavery was ended 1817-1865, which is 48 years, is an fallacy or else someone further north won the war and wrote into history someone else to bare the blame.

Now not that I endorse slavery or racism of any sort I believe that every man is the creation of God. Elisha was called baldy and God made him. Children called him baldy and the Lord fashioned him and he was bald. My eyes, I did not choose their color nor my feet, neither is their a man who chooses the coat of skin that they wear. In any form hatred and not love is incorrect,slavery, abuse of anyone at anytime seems our err in that we go from one to another picking and choosing who is next.

The people do not think and it is convenient for governments that they do not. Governments can tell you that there were thirteen colonies and that France ruled from Florida to Louisiana until the Louisiana purchase. And again say that Spain ruled from Mexico to California and almost to Canada in the west and after this say that the Louisiana purchase was in 1803. Louisanna became a state in 1812, 53 years before slavery was ended. Texas was ruled by Mexico until 1836 and was admitted into the union in 1845 20 years later slavery ended. Who is it who held the grandfathers of slavery,and sons and grandchildren in bondage the victors of war?

 

[Angela53510]

Why is it that theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in bible prophecy when it is clear Revelation 12 is speaking about the United States of America? Many bible scholars believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel and the child is Jesus but there are two clues that indicate the woman is the good ole USA. The first is that this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son". The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son. The second clue is that it says "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America. There's much more that could be said but this is clearly speaking about the USA.

This has to be the dumbest OP I have ever read. You took an idea you wanted to be true, and forced the text to say something it did not say! That is called eisegesis or reading into the text, and it is bad hermeneutics, or bad Bible interpretation.

My advice is that you take a class, online or in person, of what good hermeneutics is. Worse than the Mormons!

The US is NEVER mentioned in the Bible. And you may not know this, but this is an international site, not American forum, there are many people here who are not American. So sorry, you are not preaching to the faithful.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why is it that theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in bible prophecy when it is clear Revelation 12 is speaking about the United States of America? Many bible scholars believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel and the child is Jesus but there are two clues that indicate the woman is the good ole USA. The first is that this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son". The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son. The second clue is that it says "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America. There's much more that could be said but this is clearly speaking about the USA.

Greetings RevelationMan,

I'm sure that you would agree that scripture should support scripture, yes? I will tell you right off the bat that the United is nowhere to be found in Revelation 12. Regarding scripture supporting scripture, the woman clothed with the sun, moon and stars is revealed in Genesis 37:9-10 through Joseph's dream:

"Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

He told his father and brothers, but his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream that you have had? Will your mother and brothers and I actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"

The symbols of the sun, moon and stars, are used in Joseph's dream and identified by Jacob:

Will your mother (moon) and brothers (eleven stars) and I (sun) actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Eleven stars = Eleven of the twelve tribes, with Joseph as the twelth

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun (Jacob), with the moon under her feet (wife/wives) and a crown of twelve stars (twelve tribes) on her head. She was pregnant and crying out in the pain and agony of giving birth.

God purposely used the same symbols from Genesis to identify the woman of Revelation 12. The woman collectively represents the nation Israel. This is scripture supporting scripture. To apply the woman as representing the US is purely by conjecture and is anything but clear.

You are correct however in that, Jesus is not male child, as He does not fit the criteria. The "Male Child" is a collective name representing the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah and who will come out of the twelve tribes of Israel, ergo, she gives birth to.

Just by looking at the rest of the context one can see that the woman is not figuratively referring to the USA. For example, if the woman was the USA, who would she be giving birth to? Also, when Satan and his angels are cast down to the earth, the woman will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for 1260 days, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. This fleeing is also found in Matt.24:15-22 which is initiated by the setting up of the abomination, which states that it will be those in "Judea" who will be fleeing to the mountains. This alone would identify the woman as being Israel and disqualify the USA as being the woman.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I would think the sun nor moon no longer being needed in Revelation 21:22 would mean what of the USA then?

Hello Iamsoandso,

Don't confuse the sun, moon and stars in Rev.12, with the sun and moon in Rev.21, for the former is figurative and the latter literal.

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is obviously symbolic. Where Rev.21 is speaking literally in that, during the time of the new heaven, earth and new Jerusalem, there will be no need for the literal sun or moon to shine on the city or the new earth, because God will give it light. The fact that it also mentions that there will no longer be any oceans would also support the literal meaning of the sun and moon.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You start with presuppositions, and then you connect them together with a chain of more presuppositions.

There is no evidence.



A. "this woman is "clothed in the sun" which is another way of saying that she is "clothed in the Son"."
No.
You can't just arbitrarily take a word, and substitute another word for it whenever you like.
And if you're going by the fact both words are hominems, meaning they sound the same - well they aren't hominems in Greek, the language in which God gave the text.
If you do a bit of research, you'll find this is the exact same absurd linguistic argument made by the new age Zeitgeist movement to try and prove Christianity is false.

You're altering the actual text by INJECTING english hominems back into the Greek... there aren't any rules of hermeneutics, basic linguistics, or logic which could EVER allow this.


B. "The USA is the only major nation in the world that has it's origins in Judeo-Christian values and is clothed in the Son."
Just no.

1. "clothed in the son" is NOT something stated in Revelation 12... so you're building an entire case around something NOT STATED in the New Testament at all.

2. Even if we accept your misunderstanding of the text here, and essentially allow you to completely change the text into something it does NOT say... there is STILL NOTHING in ANY PART OF THE BIBLE to indicate "clothed with the son" actually means "origins in Judaeo-Christian values".

You're just making things up.

After you alter the text in a way which is completely foreign to any rules of language, hermeneutics, or logic, you then go on to draw conclusions that have absolutely nothing to do with any Biblical text.


C. "with the moon under her feet". There is only one nation that has a flag on the moon and that is the United States of America.
This is entirely ad hoc.

Where in the Biblical text does it give ANY indication this verse is referring to the location of flags?
Where?
Nowhere.
You are simply making things up.

1. You are assuming "her" is America, but there is nothing in the text to indicate this.
2. You are assuming "moon" is the literal moon, rather than something symbolic (and the book of revelation explicitly states many of it's terms are symbolic).
3. You are assuming "feet" means "flag", which is nowhere indicated in the text.

You simply, and conveniently, inject all kinds of things into the text which are in no stretch of the imagination actually found in the text.
This is called eisegesis, to just take some outside ideas and INJECT them into the text.
This is the opposite of good biblical interpretation.

..

Hi Maxwell!

I thought the part about the American flag being on the moon as being proof that the woman is the USA was pure conjecture . Russia and China have things up on the moon too. With this kind of reasoning, you could make these symbols anything you want. However, scripture will always reveal what the symbolism represents. See Genesis 37:9-10 for scripture's identity of the sun, moon and stars.

 

[Ahwatukee]

this video shows the United States of America as depicted in Revelation 12 and illustrates many of the key concepts in Revelation. It also has displays from passages out of Luke and Peter

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/thedayofthelord.mp4

So, you think that because of this website that it is set in stone that the USA is the woman of Rev.12? These are nothing but the false teachings of men, which you are adopting. I advise sticking with scripture for the answers.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That would be a stretch.

And then some!