Why do you believe the law is not binding on Christians?

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Mar 28, 2014
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So when you read "there remains a keeping of the Sabbath" it surely can't mean to keep the Sabbath? What pray tell does it mean? What does the seventh day mena here?

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

So these guys kept the seventh day Sabbath and still couldn't enter the rest that it pictured. How much chance does one have of entering that rest if they don't even understand that the seventh day Sabbath is the picture, the type of, the shadow of the rest of God?
[h=3]Hebrews 4:1-3[/h]King James Version (KJV)

4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3[/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.



Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
 
Jun 3, 2014
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How do you define a sin without the law?

Or do you blindly ask forgiveness knowing not what you have done wrong?
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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Tell me what book, chapter and number contradicts what Christ said here...

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Matthew 5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Here is the problem. Either nothing has changed - AT ALL, or we are in the New Heaven and New Earth. I had a problem with this verse for a long time.

Circumcision was part of the Law. And yet, Paul says, "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you." (Gal 5:2)

As a matter a fact, the very fact that Gentiles have been offered the same promise as the Israelite is a change in itself. Under the Law, Gentiles were excluded from the promise, except through being a slave that had an awl driven through their ear.



Acts 15:13-29
[SUP]13 [/SUP]After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. [SUP]15 [/SUP]With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,[SUP]16 [/SUP]‘After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, [SUP]20 [/SUP]but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and they sent this letter by them,
“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, [SUP]25 [/SUP]it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, [SUP]26 [/SUP]men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]27 [/SUP]“Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. [SUP]28 [/SUP]“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:[SUP]29 [/SUP]that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

The New Heaven and New Earth are spiritual. This did not mean a literal New Earth, but a new system, if you will, where Israelites and Gentiles could have hope in Jesus Christ. I have heard people say that this removes hope, but on the contrary, it is our hope. Until Jesus Christ died and was resurrected, we could not be saved - None of us. And in my opinion, the doing away with the old system was finalized in the destruction, by God (whether He used Romans, or not), of the Temple and the bloodline of the Levites. That was God's way of putting a complete end to the sacrifice, which became sin because it was a rejection of Jesus Christ.

If one "letter" or "stroke" has passed from the Law, then we are in the New Heaven/New Earth.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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There is one...

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Word for rest here is Sabbatismos, means keeping the Sabbath. The Diaglott has this...

Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.

So the reference is there. Your logic is faulty however. If we go by your logic (if it is not repeated in the N.T., it is not valid) then bestiality is perfectly acceptable because that Law is not repeated in the N.T.

So, how about it, is bestiality acceptable today?
What does "led by the Holy Spirit" mean to you? Would the Holy Spirit approve of bestiality? - No. And if anyone believe that they are being led by the Holy Spirit and that He is saying that bestiality is okay, then it is not the Holy Spirit that leads.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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How do you define a sin without the law?

Or do you blindly ask forgiveness knowing not what you have done wrong?
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


Rom 1
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[h=3]Acts 17:29-31[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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How do you define a sin without the law?

Or do you blindly ask forgiveness knowing not what you have done wrong?
Romans 14:22-23
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:10-12

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I don't believe a god fearing Israelite in "OT" would do his own thing in the six days like we modern Christians do in this world full of idols which many are not able to fully identify. They led a much simpler life don't you agree?

Ecclesiastes 9:7-10 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
actually, i like the idea of the simple life talked about in parts of ecclesiastes...
i'm sure a God-fearing israelite would sometimes do 'God' things during the six days... the deal, as i understand it, was that God gave the israelites six days to do their work and their stuff, and the seventh belonged to him... for the christian, God bought all seven days, so they all belong to him... there is no day to do 'my' work or stuff...
it's kind of like the tithing issue too... how much of their income does a christian tithe? ... the israelites tithed some percentage (10 or 33 or some other number)... the rest they had for themselves... for the christian, what percentage? ... well, a christian doesn't have any income... it all belongs to God... so the question is how much of God's money does he want me to put in the 'plate'... or send here or there?

grace and peace to you!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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[excerpt]
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
here's a possible interpretation of that passage for anyone interested... the guy asks 'what shall i do'... he's interested in what he can do... i think it's interesting that no one in the gospels (that i can think of) asks Jesus to forgive their sins... or for eternal life... just ask him... people ask him to answer a question, or for healings... it seems like a lot of the time, Jesus' answer is based on where they are coming from, what their question is... here, the guy is interested in what he can do, not what Jesus could do... so Jesus tells him what a person could do to get eternal life... imo no one can actually get eternal life that way, and maybe the plan is for the man to realize that as he follows Jesus' instructions...

grace and peace to y'all!
 
C

chubbena

Guest
actually, i like the idea of the simple life talked about in parts of ecclesiastes...
i'm sure a God-fearing israelite would sometimes do 'God' things during the six days... the deal, as i understand it, was that God gave the israelites six days to do their work and their stuff, and the seventh belonged to him... for the christian, God bought all seven days, so they all belong to him... there is no day to do 'my' work or stuff...
it's kind of like the tithing issue too... how much of their income does a christian tithe? ... the israelites tithed some percentage (10 or 33 or some other number)... the rest they had for themselves... for the christian, what percentage? ... well, a christian doesn't have any income... it all belongs to God... so the question is how much of God's money does he want me to put in the 'plate'... or send here or there?

grace and peace to you!
Blessed are those who do God's work all seven days and those who give it all. I'm far from such. I work for a living, I own a house and a car in a society which hates God and is full of poor people.
 
Jun 3, 2014
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Romans 14:22-23
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:10-12

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
So basically the definition of sin changes from the 613 commandments to "not believing in god".

Or donuts. Those are not "of the faith".
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Blessed are those who do God's work all seven days and those who give it all. I'm far from such. I work for a living, I own a house and a car in a society which hates God and is full of poor people.
let's talk about working for a living... imo if a person is devoted to God, then their living-work is God's work... the work-place is a place where your light can shine... and if a person is led by the Spirit, of course... a christian will want to consider the birds, and the lilies... like Jesus talked about... of course, we'll also want to be aware of greed, having enough and working for more...
i easily say that i'm not there yet... i want to follow the Spirit, who will lead me there... how will i know if i'm following? are the works of the flesh being strangled, and the fruit of the Spirit growing up?
imo, then what day of the week it is becomes less and less important... the goal is to do God's work / be led by the Spirit all the time...

Grace and Peace!
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Here I go again, wishing for nickels. If I had a nickel for everytime this scripture is misused, I could buy myself an island...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The word for "end" here is...

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

It means outcome or point aimed at. This word, G5056 τέλος, is used other places in the N.T., let's look at them...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Yep, G5056 τέλος is the word used here for end. So, is your faith obliterated? Done away with? Brought to an end? or is it brought to an outcome of salvation?

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Same word, G5056 τέλος, for end here. Is this the obliteration of the Lord? The doing away with Him? The use of the word is determined by context. Let's see how a few other translations render it...

New International Version:
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

International Standard Version:
For the Messiah is the culmination of the Law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes

Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For The Messiah is the consummation of The Written Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The sense of it is the end result, not the obliteration.

That does not say that we are free to violate the letter of the law but that we are not under the condemnation of the law to obey it.(Rom 6:14,15).
Why do you say it is condemnation to obey? The implication is that we justified by disobeying the Law. Care to show me a scripture for that? Here is one to chew on...

Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

I wish I had a nickel for every time someone has misused Rom 10:4
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
here's a possible interpretation of that passage for anyone interested... the guy asks 'what shall i do'... he's interested in what he can do... i think it's interesting that no one in the gospels (that i can think of) asks Jesus to forgive their sins... or for eternal life... just ask him... people ask him to answer a question, or for healings... it seems like a lot of the time, Jesus' answer is based on where they are coming from, what their question is... here, the guy is interested in what he can do, not what Jesus could do... so Jesus tells him what a person could do to get eternal life... imo no one can actually get eternal life that way, and maybe the plan is for the man to realize that as he follows Jesus' instructions...

grace and peace to y'all!
You have your opinion, I have my opinion but the Bible says...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
 
C

chubbena

Guest
let's talk about working for a living... imo if a person is devoted to God, then their living-work is God's work... the work-place is a place where your light can shine... and if a person is led by the Spirit, of course... a christian will want to consider the birds, and the lilies... like Jesus talked about... of course, we'll also want to be aware of greed, having enough and working for more...
i easily say that i'm not there yet... i want to follow the Spirit, who will lead me there... how will i know if i'm following? are the works of the flesh being strangled, and the fruit of the Spirit growing up?
imo, then what day of the week it is becomes less and less important... the goal is to do God's work / be led by the Spirit all the time...

Grace and Peace!
Talking about the Holy Spirit:
John 14:23-26
If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

........which is to fulfill Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The part that condemns us as we have been set free in Christ!
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Here I go again, wishing for nickels. If I had a nickel for everytime this scripture is misused, I could buy myself an island...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The word for "end" here is...

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

It means outcome or point aimed at. This word, G5056 τέλος, is used other places in the N.T., let's look at them...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Yep, G5056 τέλος is the word used here for end. So, is your faith obliterated? Done away with? Brought to an end? or is it brought to an outcome of salvation?

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Same word, G5056 τέλος, for end here. Is this the obliteration of the Lord? The doing away with Him? The use of the word is determined by context. Let's see how a few other translations render it...

New International Version:
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

International Standard Version:
For the Messiah is the culmination of the Law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes

Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For The Messiah is the consummation of The Written Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The sense of it is the end result, not the obliteration.



Why do you say it is condemnation to obey? The implication is that we justified by disobeying the Law. Care to show me a scripture for that? Here is one to chew on...

Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

I wish I had a nickel for every time someone has misused Rom 10:4
What is your proof that I misused the text,show me the words I used to prove I misused the text .... forget it brother because I responded to " Why do you believe the law is not binding on Christians? " and Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.( I speak of the Law of Moses) Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

  • Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
You have your opinion, I have my opinion but the Bible says...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
yes, it's important to keep God's commandments...
Jesus had an interesting way of doing that... a way that was, well, different... so, i'm into following Jesus' pattern...

grace and peace!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Talking about the Holy Spirit:
John 14:23-26
If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

........which is to fulfill Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
yes, 'He will teach you all things'... i think there are things about law-keeping that go way beyond what a human will get just by reading... Jesus has access to a level of torah-understanding that's way beyond what most humans can get on their own... do you wish to keep the law? if you follow the Spirit while doing the law-keeping, you may find yourself criticized by other keepers of the law around you...

grace and peace!
 
T

The_Seeker

Guest
When I read a question like the OP, I am often saddened, because in order to properly answer that question, I am going to have to write a book, defining clearly some terms I use and then explaining... let's just say a lot of typing is required.

Here is my short-version answer.

Gentiles are not a part of the Laws of Moses because the Laws of Moses is a covenant given to the sons and daughters of Israel. The Laws of Moses are the Laws that the people who live in Jerusalem and the area around Jerusalem are supposed to follow. It is a land agreement with bonuses.

Israelites get land that is designated by God to be theirs. In exchange, they get the God who has segmented this land to Himself. That is it. There is nothing else promised in this land agreement between the Israelites and the God of Israel, except that God will show Himself through them. If I am a Jew and I live in Israel, then the Law of Moses is for me. If I am Gentile, and I live in Israel, I have to honor the laws of that land, which should be the Laws of Moses.

People confuse the issue of salvation with the Laws of Moses. Salvation from sin and death was never promised to the Israelite in the Laws that Moses wrote. The promise of Salvation came with the promise of the Messiah who is to rule them and the world. When Jesus walked onto the scene, He brought salvation with Him. The Jews did not accept Him then, and that is why Christianity is here on Earth. Christianity is the promise of salvation, the benefit of accepting the Messiah. This promise is only given by the Messiah, and only those who follow the Messiah can obtain it.

If you are a Gentile and you do not live in Jerusalem, how is following the laws that are designed for those who actually live in Jerusalem going to affect you? How are you a part of something that has nothing to do with you? In fact, by following the Laws of Moses, nothing is guaranteed other than the promises that are found in the Laws themselves, mainly prosperity and a good long life here on Earth. That is all it promises. If you want success here on Earth, then following the Laws of Moses is not a bad idea, but unless you are a Jew who is convinced that following the laws of your forefathers is how you show your devotion to Jesus Christ or are actually living in the holy land, the Laws of Moses have nothing truly to offer you, except the knowledge of the sins that have gotten nations wiped from the face of the Earth. That knowledge is beneficial, but by itself, will not save anyone from Hell, Judgment, and the Lake of Fire.