Why does Eschatology divide the Church into 3 camps

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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#121
Jan 6, 2018
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#121
Stunnedbygrace said:
I'm not. You are reading what people say and coming to bizarre conclusions.

And here is my recollection of the passage I am referring to: As they were peering, straining their eyes, squinting,watching Him as He went, two white robed men came and spoke to them and said, why are you staring into the sky. He will come back to you the same way you saw Him go. And then, a cloud came and took Him from their sight.

And so you say I have said He won't return a certain way when I didn't even mention anything about that. You are quite difficult to speak with. You appear to want to argue with literally everyone, even people who are agreeing with you at times. In every thread you are searching for things to argue about with everyone. You remind me of Jimbo...
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Now you are being dishonest because you did say in #82 that nobody will be sitting on a cloud:

https://christianchat.com/threads/w...e-the-church-into-3-camps.177522/post-3627561
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#122
Nov 12, 2015
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#122
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#123
#123
DevotiontoBible said:
It is pretty obvious that they were dominionists because they had spiritual gifts and not waiting for the new era of Christ's reign.
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that does not prove a thing, Christs reign had just started, so of course they had gifts, alot of people did.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#125
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#125
Stunnedbygrace said:
I disagree that just because a prophecy uses heavy symbolism, this means it will not happen. Jesus will come again. Will He literally be holding a huge sickle in His hand? Probably not. But this does not then mean He won't literally come again and that some men are going to die.

At 6:00 I have to go see a man about a horse.
When I say this, you think I am saying I have to leave and conduct some business at 6 tonight. You do not literally think I am going to buy a horse, but I WILL literally go to handle some matter of business.
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So let's talk about the coming of Jesus.

"Every eye shall see Him, even those who crucified Him.."

In what configuration does every eye on earth see something at the same time? flat earth?!!
Even those that crucified Him will see Him? will they be resurrected?

Did Jesus literally lie when He said:

Matt 10:23When they persecute you in onetown, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 16: 28 Truly I tellyou, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matt 26:
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e

So, when do you believe Jesus will come? future?!!
I say. He has always been coming and will continue coming not as a literal being but as the kingdom of God when He indwells believers one by one.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#126
#126
Stunnedbygrace said:
That's not even my post...how am I being dishonest when you quote a post that isn't even mine? You are quite mad man!
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Maybe he is talking about Noose, I can not see what the man says so I do not know, but that post is right above the post in question.
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#127
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#127
eternally-gratefull said:
that does not prove a thing, Christs reign had just started, so of course they had gifts, alot of people did.
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It proves Paul had to remind them that just because they had spiritual gifts it didn't mean they were at the echatological age yet of Christ's kingdom in 1 Cor 1:7.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#128
#128
DevotiontoBible said:
It proves Paul had to remind them that just because they had spiritual gifts it didn't mean they were at the echatological age yet of Christ's kingdom in 1 Cor 1:7.
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That does not prove what you have been saying. I think your reading into the passage something that is not there.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#129
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#129
DevotiontoBible said:
I'm sorry. I confused you with Noose who also has a green ball icon like yours.
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Apology accepted. It is good to know you do not think I am dishonest but were just confused because of not reading carefully enough and paying more attention.

He could be sitting on a cloud when He comes. He could be holding a literal giant sickle in his hand. I personally don't think it will be that way but it could be that some aspects are not completely symbolic and others are.

But as for when the disciples saw Jesus go, it reads as if they were watching Him go sort of like when you release a balloon and it gets smaller and smaller until a cloud passes by and obscures the tiny red dot from your eye. It's in Acts 1 somewhere I think. Read it and see if it reads that way to you too.
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#130
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#130
Noose said:
So let's talk about the coming of Jesus.

"Every eye shall see Him, even those who crucified Him.."

In what configuration does every eye on earth see something at the same time? flat earth?!!
Even those that crucified Him will see Him? will they be resurrected?

Did Jesus literally lie when He said:

Matt 10:23When they persecute you in onetown, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 16: 28 Truly I tellyou, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matt 26:
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e

So, when do you believe Jesus will come? future?!!
I say. He has always been coming and will continue coming not as a literal being but as the kingdom of God when He indwells believers one by one.
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Then you don't believe this is literal:

After saying this, he was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see him. As they strained to see him rising into heaven, two white-robed men suddenly stood among them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!”
Acts of the Apostles 1:9‭-‬11 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/act.1.9-11.NLT
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#131
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#131
eternally-gratefull said:
Maybe he is talking about Noose, I can not see what the man says so I do not know, but that post is right above the post in question.
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Yes, I see that noose was saying there is symbolism in the prophecy. I agree there is symbolism there. Jesus is not coming back to collect grapes. The grapes are people. This man who is complaining believes the cloud is a literal aspect and the grapes and sickle are a symbolic aspect. I have no problem with him thinking that. He may or may not be sitting on a cloud as this man thinks. I don't understand why he thinks it's such a huge deal, but he does. He really gets heated about it being a literal cloud and Jesus having to be seated on it. I can't understand the man. It's been this way in many threads. I don't think he engages his whole mind in his conversations. He gets very heated and sees things no one said and...he's difficult to speak with. I'm hoping he will settle down some and enjoy us as much as we enjoy each other. :)
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#132
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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#132
DevotiontoBible said:
Then you don't believe this is literal:

After saying this, he was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see him. As they strained to see him rising into heaven, two white-robed men suddenly stood among them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!”
Acts of the Apostles 1:9‭-‬11 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/act.1.9-11.NLT
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Jesus went up and was covered by the clouds i agree but to what regard would His coming back be the same as His ascension? it has a hidden meaning and is not literal because when he ascended, few people witnessed, how many people will witness His coming back?

That's why i ask, with what regard is His ascension same as His coming back?
I have always known that clouds of heaven represent/are symbolic of glory, so to me, Jesus being hidden by the clouds means His body was glorified so in the same sense, He will come with glory not literal body of flesh and bones but as spirit.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#134
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#134
But it reads like this to me. They saw a cloud take Him from their sight. But THEN, it describes this in more detail - they were straining(their eyes) to keep sight of Him as He ascended and became smaller.

It helps too, to read a few different translations.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#135
#135
Stunnedbygrace said:
Haha! The NLT is my favorite translation! Haha!
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It is much easier to read. That aspect I like

We tried to use it to teach in church, and had to correct so many mistakes we finally gave up and went back to the other versions.

I would never want a new believer to use that translation.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#136
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#136
Noose said:
Jesus went up and was covered by the clouds i agree but to what regard would His coming back be the same as His ascension? it has a hidden meaning and is not literal because when he ascended, few people witnessed, how many people will witness His coming back?

That's why i ask, with what regard is His ascension same as His coming back?
I have always known that clouds of heaven represent/are symbolic of glory, so to me, Jesus being hidden by the clouds means His body was glorified so in the same sense, He will come with glory not literal body of flesh and bones but as spirit.
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Interesting for sure. As to coming back the same way they saw Him go, it is disciples this is said to. Since I am pre-trib gathering, I see this statement by the white robed men to be for believers and not to be the same event as when every eye will see Him.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#138
#138
Stunnedbygrace said:
Interesting for sure. As to coming back the same way they saw Him go, it is disciples this is said to. Since I am pre-trib gathering, I see this statement by the white robed men to be for believers and not to be the same event as when every eye will see Him.
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I see it as he will return the same way, We will see him in the sky, and he will ascend to earth. and set up his kingdom in Jerusalm (the mount of Olives will split in 2 as it is said) and many people will die (so much so that the birds feed for a year again as prophesy says)

The rapture or "catching up" Paul spoke about, we meet Christ in the sky, there is no literal return to earth (boots on ground so to speak)
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#139
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#139
eternally-gratefull said:
It is much easier to read. That aspect I like

We tried to use it to teach in church, and had to correct so many mistakes we finally gave up and went back to the other versions.

I would never want a new believer to use that translation.
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It was the first translation God put in my hands and the one that has remained in my hands since. I do have many other translations and I read them too at times to compare, but I always go back to NLT. I did find a pretty confusing mistake once though. But I just look at parallel translations online and get a rounder understanding. But that dang NLT is just what is used to recall what He has said to my mind and it's the one I can find stuff in, so it keeps being in my hands again. :LOL:
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#140
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#140
eternally-gratefull said:
I see it as he will return the same way, We will see him in the sky, and he will ascend to earth. and set up his kingdom in Jerusalm (the mount of Olives will split in 2 as it is said) and many people will die (so much so that the birds feed for a year again as prophesy says)

The rapture or "catching up" Paul spoke about, we meet Christ in the sky, there is no literal return to earth (boots on ground so to speak)
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That wouldn't make much sense in light of what Jesus also said somewhere else:

Matt 10:23When they persecute you in onetown, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son ofMan comes.

Matt 16: 28 Truly I tellyou, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matt 26:
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e
 
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