Why forever torment in Hell?

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DerVille

Junior Member
Jul 13, 2017
22
9
3
#41
I'd say we don't know 100% exactly what "hell" will be like.

So, the concept many have is that hell is being thrown into a lake of fire and "burning" or feeling agonizing burns forever. I'm guessing this is the view you are reacting to? Well, I'd say this view on hell might not be accurate and there are a lot of verses that describe what happens to those that die in their sins.

If it is eternal, meaning the person/soul will always exist forever and will be "weeping and gnashing teeth" for eternity than I must admit, that sounds cruel. It would have been (in my opinion) more merciful to just never create them. If a person lived and died at 25. Eternal punishment for 25 years of sin? It does sound cruel. It seems at some point it would seem merciful to just let them move on to a state of not existing anymore.

Well, I'd just say I don't think anyone knows for sure what all goes in for sinners in the afterlife. We can guess and make the most of what we can with the scriptures but I'd say it is hard to fully say.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,579
2,490
113
#42
Hi cross,

To me unquenchable is a fire that cannot be put out. How do you interpret it?
Well you used the verse in defense of your position.

Luke 3:17 KJVS
[17] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

So according to that verse and your definition it is saying that the chaff (unbelievers) will burn with a fire that cannot be put out'.

It then appears that verse supports eternal torment.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,579
2,490
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#43
Well, I'd just say I don't think anyone knows for sure what all goes in for sinners in the afterlife. We can guess and make the most of what we can with the scriptures but I'd say it is hard to fully say.
You may call it 'guessing' if you wish, but hopefully that 'guessing' is based on Scripture and not our emotions or fallen reason.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,863
1,410
113
#44
its all about who you break against

if you break against regular man you are in trouble

if you break against a earthly king you are in even more trouble

if you break against God you are in eternal trouble.
 

DerVille

Junior Member
Jul 13, 2017
22
9
3
#45
Well you used the verse in defense of your position.

Luke 3:17 KJVS
[17] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

So according to that verse and your definition it is saying that the chaff (unbelievers) will burn with a fire that cannot be put out'.

It then appears that verse supports eternal torment.
It can be interpreted that way. A literal exact description or is it just a farming metaphor of getting rid of the bad and keeping the good, a metaphor the people would understand? No way to know for sure. Also chaff would burn up and be gone. Even if the fire continues. Would the sinner be gone or just continue to burn? Do afterlife beings have the same sensations as the physical body? The unimaginable pain that one feels in life if in direct contact with flame?

In Joshua it says: "The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!"

Did the sun stop? Well, based on what we know about the solar system this would most likely mean the Earth stopped rotating.

Burning the chaff? It is hard for us to know on this side of the grave 100% if this is literal, a metaphor or how it plays out.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,071
1,410
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#46
"Would you say it much match salvation in a similar way receiving the end from the beginning."

Not sure what this means, other than the wages of sin is death, not eternal life of torment.

Jesus called judgement the 2nd death,

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One
who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10

Humans kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. In hell ones soul is destroyed.
Destruction does not imply torture, but taking that which is alive and killing it.

I suppose those who believe Jesus meant torture the soul, then equally killing the
body would mean torturing the body, which clearly it does not mean, because when
we are killed we die, we stop being aware of anything and so therefore cannot be
tortured.

You said..receiving the end of suffering from the beginning rather than the giving end and then judgment.

Is it the same kind of principle with salvation receiving the end of salvation from the beginning (no condemnation) .

One ending in death never to rise to new spirt life. The other a spirit that will rise on the last day?
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
682
44
28
#47
Hi cross,

To me unquenchable is a fire that cannot be put out. How do you interpret it? (From post #40)


Ezekiel 20:47-48 ( 47 Say to the southern forest: ‘Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees, both green and dry. The blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it. 48 Everyone will see that I the Lord have kindled it; it will not be quenched.’”) [From the New International Version (NIV) bible]

This fire is not still burning, so no one will be able to put it out, but it will eventually burn out.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,579
2,490
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#48
Hi cross,

To me unquenchable is a fire that cannot be put out. How do you interpret it? (From post #40)


Ezekiel 20:47-48 ( 47 Say to the southern forest: ‘Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees, both green and dry. The blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it. 48 Everyone will see that I the Lord have kindled it; it will not be quenched.’”) [From the New International Version (NIV) bible]

This fire is not still burning, so no one will be able to put it out, but it will eventually burn out.
I'm not sure of your point, but what is the purpose of eternal fire if it eventually isn't burning anything?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,071
1,410
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#49
I'm not sure of your point, but what is the purpose of eternal fire if it eventually isn't burning anything?
I would suggest it is another way of saying . "never to rise to new life". A relentless after affect.

It would be like the burning love of the Father and Son working together in perfect harmony and submission to bring us the peace of God that does surpass our understanding.... giving us the faith to believe...... a relentless burning .A burning, purifying love he promises he will work in us to the end.

Those not given a new born again Spirit of Christ as the power of God in us. Their corrupted body returns to the dust and water.(Clay) and their corrupted temporal spirit returns to the father of all Spirit life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,579
2,490
113
#50
I would suggest it is another way of saying . "never to rise to new life". A relentless after affect.
Atheists believe we will never rise to new life, with a relentless after effect of eternal matter recycling itself as worm food. Nothing special about that.
It would be like the burning love of the Father and Son working together in perfect harmony and submission to bring us the peace of God that does surpass our understanding.... giving us the faith to believe...... a relentless burning .A burning, purifying love he promises he will work in us to the end.
Are you then saying all will be saved? Even those who reject God? Or are you speaking of the purifying process believers now go through?
Those not given a new born again Spirit of Christ as the power of God in us. Their corrupted body returns to the dust and water.(Clay) and their corrupted temporal spirit returns to the father of all Spirit life.
Umm. I am a Christian and derive truth from all of Scripture taken as a whole. You just excised hell and the Lake of Fire...

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15)

Universalism is anti-biblical and anti-Gospel, in effect, it is ANOTHER GOSPEL...

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

I hate to be blunt, but if you claim to be born again you need to try to stick at least to the basics found in Scripture.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,071
1,410
113
#51
Atheists believe we will never rise to new life, with a relentless after effect of eternal matter recycling itself as worm food. Nothing special about that.

Are you then saying all will be saved? Even those who reject God? Or are you speaking of the purifying process believers now go through?

Umm. I am a Christian and derive truth from all of Scripture taken as a whole. You just excised hell and the Lake of Fire...

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15)

Universalism is anti-biblical and anti-Gospel, in effect, it is ANOTHER GOSPEL...

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

I hate to be blunt, but if you claim to be born again you need to try to stick at least to the basics found in Scripture.

It is one of doctrines that needs to be looked at. Many look at the wrong kind of fear.The commandment to believe is not a threatening fear. but one that draws according to mercy.

Basically the Bible does not teach God is merciless or relentless. He is subject to the same law that governs mercy as that of the creature. . Mercy does its good work against our judgement. It does not apply to the unbelief of the whole world.

James 2:13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

They are already judged because they have no faith that comes by hearing God. they had their tribulation as a living hell. described of Jonas and Jesus .A three day work of suffering in the belly of hell. the father deliveed them both

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John3:18

Yes Universalism is anti-biblical and anti-Gospel. The gospel is in respect to as many as the father has given to the Son. They alone which are given a new spirit can come. They already lived in a body of death. There new spirit will be raised on the last day Those who are not found in the lambs book of life as the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, again they will not rise. . There will be no torture for those who have not the Spirit of Christ. God is a God of mercy. He is not merciless where one person would suffer for ever relentlessly . Christ jeopardized a living spirit to satisfy the need of a living hell , as a living spiritual sacrifice.
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
682
44
28
#52
I'm not sure of your point, but what is the purpose of eternal fire if it eventually isn't burning anything?
From Post #48

I am not sure that it is eternal for everyone. It may very well be for Satan and the rest that are to reside alive forever in it, but for those who are to be totally destroyed, it may only be burning for long enough to consume their bodies with no one able to put it out until it has consumed all of the bodies, which would probably seem like forever considering the billions it will have to consume.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,579
2,490
113
#53
From Post #48

I am not sure that it is eternal for everyone. It may very well be for Satan and the rest that are to reside alive forever in it, but for those who are to be totally destroyed, it may only be burning for long enough to consume their bodies with no one able to put it out until it has consumed all of the bodies, which would probably seem like forever considering the billions it will have to consume.
Speculation and hope?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,579
2,490
113
#54
It is one of doctrines that needs to be looked at. Many look at the wrong kind of fear.The commandment to believe is not a threatening fear. but one that draws according to mercy.

Basically the Bible does not teach God is merciless or relentless. He is subject to the same law that governs mercy as that of the creature. . Mercy does its good work against our judgement. It does not apply to the unbelief of the whole world.

James 2:13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

They are already judged because they have no faith that comes by hearing God. they had their tribulation as a living hell. described of Jonas and Jesus .A three day work of suffering in the belly of hell. the father deliveed them both

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John3:18

Yes Universalism is anti-biblical and anti-Gospel. The gospel is in respect to as many as the father has given to the Son. They alone which are given a new spirit can come. They already lived in a body of death. There new spirit will be raised on the last day Those who are not found in the lambs book of life as the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, again they will not rise. . There will be no torture for those who have not the Spirit of Christ. God is a God of mercy. He is not merciless where one person would suffer for ever relentlessly . Christ jeopardized a living spirit to satisfy the need of a living hell , as a living spiritual sacrifice.
God is a God of mercy.
His mercy is found IN Jesus Christ and His atoning blood.
His wrath in it's fulness is found outside of Jesus and His atoning blood.
Think Passover.
Selah.
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
682
44
28
#56
One of the pieces of information is the use of forever and ever. In the Greek it can have more than one meaning. It can be eternity or it can be for an age, or length of time. The same phrase is used in Revelation 19:3 to describe the smoke of Babylon going up forever and ever. It is not likely that smoke will be rising from it forever. In the case of Satan and the rest I can easily see that it means forever, but it may not mean forever for all.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,579
2,490
113
#57
One of the pieces of information is the use of forever and ever. In the Greek it can have more than one meaning. It can be eternity or it can be for an age, or length of time. The same phrase is used in Revelation 19:3 to describe the smoke of Babylon going up forever and ever. It is not likely that smoke will be rising from it forever. In the case of Satan and the rest I can easily see that it means forever, but it may not mean forever for all.
'Houston, we have a problem'.
If we can arbitrarily pick one of two meanings for the word 'forever' or 'eternal', then we would have to apply the same nuance of meaning when it also comes to living 'forever' or 'eternal' life. IOW perhaps our 'eternal life' promised by Jesus is not 'forever' but for just 'an age' or 'period of time'.
Also to say some outside of Christ will suffer eternal punishment for eternity, while others will only be destroyed or annihilated is also an arbitrary sleight of hand which is based at best on speculation. I definitely wouldn't count on it.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,071
1,410
113
#58
God is a God of mercy.
His mercy is found IN Jesus Christ and His atoning blood.
His wrath in it's fulness is found outside of Jesus and His atoning blood.
Think Passover.
Selah.
Yes Passover forever in respect to the eternal not seen.When he sees the blood not when we see it .Not forever in respect to the temporal . He uses the word forever in both ways depending on context. . Like for instance with Ruth a Moabite a nation used to represent or signify unbelief (no faith) . It as far not using other nations was used to represent the unseen eternal held to the principle of protecting the spiritual seed Christ using Israel to signify the work of the Holy Spirit..... until the Son of man Jesus came to fulfill that shadow. The reformation is here the shadows met their fulfilment.. the genealogy has ended. Ruth in respect to the eternal, not seen has her place in the genealogy of the generation of Christ.(Mathew 1) The born again generation.

Forever is used two ways depending on which creation it is in respect to. . One to those in whom he did not apply his saving grace as one kind of mercy .The other he withheld grace from that mercy. It proved to be the end an eternity in respect to this corrupted world which can be described as the belly of hell a living suffering.

Deuteronomy 23:2-4 King James Version (KJV) A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord. An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever: Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee., .