Why free will?
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I agree with you that He knows all things, sometimes only seconds, sometimes only minutes, sometimes only days, sometimes months, or sometimes years, before they happen. And that some things that He has planned to do Himself from before creating the world, these He knew from the beginning, I don't agree with those who claim He knew before creation all things that would ever happen.
And nothing you cited says that God foreknows all things people will do before He makes them. Maybe you agree, but I can't tell from that particular post.
So, I still think it doesn't make sense that God would repent of making man, if before He made them He knew the outcome of every choice of the men He would make. I don't think it is necessary to assume that God exhaustively knows the future, in order to also believe the Bible and the Gospel.
And nothing you cited says that God foreknows all things people will do before He makes them. Maybe you agree, but I can't tell from that particular post.
So, I still think it doesn't make sense that God would repent of making man, if before He made them He knew the outcome of every choice of the men He would make. I don't think it is necessary to assume that God exhaustively knows the future, in order to also believe the Bible and the Gospel.
I believe this verse explains God's emotion for us. It pained God, it grieved God, to see what His creation was doing. He's weeping.....Because He alone has to carry out the judgement of His creation. We get a true view of the personal God that He is. If He did not carry out His perfect judgement, there would be no bloodline for the Lord Jesus Christ.
And, I believe He knew it all and knows it all. He has not and will never learn anything. He knew every action and thought of every person who has lived or will live. Perfect knowledge. Omniscient~~All knowing.
Job 37~~16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
Matt 6~~ 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
And, I believe He knew it all and knows it all. He has not and will never learn anything. He knew every action and thought of every person who has lived or will live. Perfect knowledge. Omniscient~~All knowing.
Job 37~~16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
Matt 6~~ 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
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You have merely restated the same irrational exhaustive foreknowledge oxymoron and asserted it to be justified by a plea to mystery. Why would it pain and grieve God to observe the corruption of mankind that He for centuries had known would certainly happen, because He chose that possible universe and history, which He then instigated intentionally, and He had already known before creation He would resolve by a flood and destruction of all but eight people and successfully move history onward toward the fulfilment of His foreknown middle and end.
I do believe God was actually grieved and regretted setting in motion the course of history that led to so deep and extensive person-on-person abuse through the misuse of the gift of free will. I think He was not expecting evil to spread so quickly and pervasively and perversely as it did as events unfolded. But being God, he was able to devise a viable plan forward toward His ultimate goal of producing a family conformed to the image of the Son.
I do believe God was actually grieved and regretted setting in motion the course of history that led to so deep and extensive person-on-person abuse through the misuse of the gift of free will. I think He was not expecting evil to spread so quickly and pervasively and perversely as it did as events unfolded. But being God, he was able to devise a viable plan forward toward His ultimate goal of producing a family conformed to the image of the Son.
“I don't think it is necessary to assume that God exhaustively knows the future, in order to also believe the Bible and the Gospel”
yeah people have opinions you know ? Sounds like you don’t think God knows all things I do believe he does
i never said it was essential to think it or you can’t believe the gospel though not sure where that came from .
but either way I think we agree that God gives us a choice whether he knows what that will be or not we have to choose
yeah people have opinions you know ? Sounds like you don’t think God knows all things I do believe he does
i never said it was essential to think it or you can’t believe the gospel though not sure where that came from .
but either way I think we agree that God gives us a choice whether he knows what that will be or not we have to choose
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Hi Gideon
Adam had freewill ... we don't. We ARE sinners and we all will die.
But God has determined and is determined to save mankind and He has the means to bring man to repentance as with the prodigal son ... if he had prospered he never would have returned. But in the way in which man is made when he was brought to dearth and despair his "freewill" was subdued and over ridden.
"Freewill" is an illusion, a hoax, it is the deception that Satan used to lure Adam into sin HOW?
By taking away the consequences, "you will not die."
"Human freewill" will always lead to bondage and death.
Adam had freewill ... we don't. We ARE sinners and we all will die.
But God has determined and is determined to save mankind and He has the means to bring man to repentance as with the prodigal son ... if he had prospered he never would have returned. But in the way in which man is made when he was brought to dearth and despair his "freewill" was subdued and over ridden.
"Freewill" is an illusion, a hoax, it is the deception that Satan used to lure Adam into sin HOW?
By taking away the consequences, "you will not die."
"Human freewill" will always lead to bondage and death.
I don't think God needs to know everything that both does and does not exist to be all-knowing. God remembers all the past, and knows all the present. But the future does not exist to be known. So not knowing the future is not a lack of genuine knowledge. Otherwise God would need to have also to know everything that didn't, doesn't and will never exist and happen, on top of all that was, and is
God can imagine the future, as we can. But since our eventual future will depend on the free will desires and coming decisions of many free will agents, no one KNOWS from the distant past whqt will happen, not even God, unless He asserts His omnipotence to make some particular things happen that He has imagined and determined shall happen. There are some instances of that, which God makes happen to demonstrate His omnipotence and His ability to fulfil His promises, but most events God allows to play out, and we learn from the consequences of our choices.
I don't think I said you did. I'm just clarifying my position in distinction to the rest of the full range of perspectives out there. Simetimes it is not easy or possible to work out a poster's exact position on things from what they include in a post.
We do.
God can imagine the future, as we can. But since our eventual future will depend on the free will desires and coming decisions of many free will agents, no one KNOWS from the distant past whqt will happen, not even God, unless He asserts His omnipotence to make some particular things happen that He has imagined and determined shall happen. There are some instances of that, which God makes happen to demonstrate His omnipotence and His ability to fulfil His promises, but most events God allows to play out, and we learn from the consequences of our choices.
I don't think I said you did. I'm just clarifying my position in distinction to the rest of the full range of perspectives out there. Simetimes it is not easy or possible to work out a poster's exact position on things from what they include in a post.
We do.
“Adam had freewill ... we don't. We ARE sinners and we all will die.”
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:31-32, 34, 36 KJV
“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:15-18 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:31-32, 34, 36 KJV
“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:15-18 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“I don't think God needs to know everything that both does and does not exist to be all-knowing”
yeah I believe he does know all ….. it’s just a fundamental difference pertaining to this subject .
I don’t think even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from his foreknowledge and will
“Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”
Matthew 10:29-30 KJV
i don’t think if you even think a thought brother it’s hidden from the foreknowledge of God
my point was always that him knowing the end of all things from the beginning does not change the perspective of us it doesn’t mean now we don’t have a choice just because God knows the results it doesn’t change free Will it just states that God already knew those who would be saved
It doesn’t mean we don’t need to hear and believe and choose good he just knows who will before they are born or even exist in the womb
My point was gods foreknowledge doesn’t change free Will ot just about what God knows which again I believe Myself personally lol that yeah God knows all things it’s alright with me if you don’t think he does I’m okay with that difference
yeah I believe he does know all ….. it’s just a fundamental difference pertaining to this subject .
I don’t think even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from his foreknowledge and will
“Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”
Matthew 10:29-30 KJV
i don’t think if you even think a thought brother it’s hidden from the foreknowledge of God
my point was always that him knowing the end of all things from the beginning does not change the perspective of us it doesn’t mean now we don’t have a choice just because God knows the results it doesn’t change free Will it just states that God already knew those who would be saved
It doesn’t mean we don’t need to hear and believe and choose good he just knows who will before they are born or even exist in the womb
My point was gods foreknowledge doesn’t change free Will ot just about what God knows which again I believe Myself personally lol that yeah God knows all things it’s alright with me if you don’t think he does I’m okay with that difference
“and what about those who God has closed their eyes that they see not and stopped up their ears that they hear not and hardened their heart lest they should repent and be healed?”
a you mean those who he called to repentance and faith for ages who continually defiles everything he did and gave for them and rebelled against him and ignored all his warnings of judgement ? Who co tiny ally chose everything but him ? That is gonna leave a person blind when we reject what he’s telling us
“The ONLY reason you and I hear is because God opened our ear ...
did he open your ears to what he said though and say anyone who believes will have eternal life ?
naw not saved by grace , saved by grace through faith
a you mean those who he called to repentance and faith for ages who continually defiles everything he did and gave for them and rebelled against him and ignored all his warnings of judgement ? Who co tiny ally chose everything but him ? That is gonna leave a person blind when we reject what he’s telling us
“The ONLY reason you and I hear is because God opened our ear ...
did he open your ears to what he said though and say anyone who believes will have eternal life ?
naw not saved by grace , saved by grace through faith
