Why God Allows Adversity

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Miri

The Thingy Member
Jul 22, 2012
8,461
1,319
113
UK age 50
#41
For starters what God did to Abraham, what was it? The word of God calls it temptation. What is your take?

Then please help me to define the word temptation in plane English or from the original translation.

I understand your situation. But your words are much too ungraceful for the knowledge you claim.

Well, for your information, God called me to be a teacher of his word. I didn't call myself. So I am not fearful of judgement.

But all the same, I Love you, and would like to be of help if you want.

I use to be really confused about Abraham and Isaac. I wondered for a long time
Why A Loving God would ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. I knew it was a picture of
Christ, but Abraham was a mere man, not Jesus.

Then one day I came across these verses. I have copied them in 2 versions for
Emphasise.

Jeremiah 19:4-5 NKJV
[4] "Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents [5] (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Jeremiah 19:4-5 NLT
[4] "'For Israel has forsaken me and turned this valley into a place of wickedness. The people burn incense to foreign gods-idols never before acknowledged by this generation, by their ancestors, or by the kings of Judah. And they have filled this place with the blood of innocent children. [5] They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!


It got me thinking,if it never even crossed Gods mind to ask for child sacrifice, then
What about Abraham and Isaac, I was really confused. I prayed a lot about this
Then one night I had a dream about a massive two edged sword. A weapon honed
ready for battle and in the dream I knew it was relevant to Abraham.
That he was like a two edged sword a mighty weapon.
Then I woke up!

God showed me that with great blessing comes great testing, Through Abraham
all nations on the earth would be blessed. God said his children would be like the
stars in the sky, too many. to count. Abraham was a mighty weapon in God hands. A
Strike force against the darkness of a fallen hopeless world.

Through the line of Abraham Jesus would be born, through the line of Abraham a
Remnant was to be kept.

What happened was a mighty test for a mighty man. It had nothing to do with Isaac.

And yes God knew Abraham would pass the test.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
792
180
43
#42
I don't believe that any of us can say we know God's mind and intentions for each adversity we face. Sometimes it is something we bring on ourselves by letting our mind have thoughts outside of what God tells us to think about so we are tense, sometimes our body wasn't formed right, sometimes it is because of sinful ways of the majority of people who live around us--the list goes on and on.

Our physical death is not of vital importance--it is a few years difference in our eternity. What is of vital importance to us is our soul's life and death.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
3,247
276
83
39
#43
Life with God is not immunity from difficulties, but peace in difficulties.

C. S. Lewis
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
329
90
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#44
No, your words are ungraceful! (Graceless?) You judge and condemn those who are ill, through no fault of their own, saying sin brought it on them. Their sin! And this is why you are not a teacher! Because your theology is rotten, and not based on Scripture, but rather, the teachings of evil men!

God may have called you, but you have not studied to show yourself a worker approved.

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15

You are not correctly handling the Word. For example, above, you say, "What God did to Abraham." What verse? What are you talking about? How can I even discuss this issue, when you fail to post verses? However, I did find what you are talking about. It is Genesis 22:1

"After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” Genesis 22:1 ESV

This verse is a better translation! The word is NOT tempt, in Hebrew.


"In Hebrew the word there is נָסָה the KJV translates it as "tempt", but strong's translates it as "to test". In fact if you check out other translations you'll find thats how they translate it as well.
So what was God doing in Genesis 22? Was he tempting Abraham or testing him? Reading on in the chapter God makes it clear.
2 “Take your son, your only son—yes, Isaac, whom you love so much—and go to the land of Moriah. Go and sacrifice him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will show you.”​
...​
12 “Don’t lay a hand on the boy!” the angel said. “Do not hurt him in any way, for now I know that you truly fear God. You have not withheld from me even your son, your only son.”​
God was testing Abraham to see if he feared Him. And because of Abraham's obedience and faith he was blessed and so were we."

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/14917/does-god-tempt-abraham-in-genesis-221

This is why you are not called to a teacher. You use the KJV, without referring to the original languages. You use eisegesis, reading into text based on a faulty translation, you do not use Hebrew tools. But, most important, you start with error, and do not even support it with out-of-context Scriptures. Really, the lowest rung of pretending to be a teacher!

My advice to you, is that, if you think you really are called to be a teacher, then get some training. Go to a proper Bible school, that teaches original languages, proper hermeneutics, theology, take some courses on Biblical backgrounds, and, oh yes, some teaching courses. Then we will see if God has called you to teach.

As for now, your erroneous false doctrines are going to be called! I will not stand for people who are sick, being told that they can be automatically healed, if they simply stop sinning, or pray in faith. God is so much more complex than these simplistic, and false doctrines of men.
Dear Angela,

I understand your reaction, it is full of emotions. Which is characteristic of women (I have a Christian wife like you, that's how I know).
But you see, I am not in anyway condemning anyone for being sick. I'm only saying what is written in scriptures. The word of God particularly tells us that Jesus could not do much mighty works in his city because of unbelief (Mathhew 13:58).

And to be very frank with you, I have seen (and still see) many lie sick, and die like flies on daily basis because of unbelief. Including fervent Christians that have been far there before me. Many who have been offended in my teachings, instead of taking my loving rebuke and advice have remained sickly and die prematurely (My late fiance is an example).

While on the other hand, over the years I have seen people accept my loving rebuke and guide and have consistently enjoyed perfect health and good life. All to the glory of God...

And as for my teaching authority, I don't have to struggle to prove it to you or any body. I don't strife. Only that it is necessary for me to mention it, so people can receive me in the name of a teacher and not in the name of a brother. So they can receive a teacher's reward like so many others.

Over the years, the Lord have mightily confirmed my calling with gamut of testimonies. From salvation, transformation of lives, activation of ministries and spiritual gifts and healings, etc... Hence, the Lord already honours my office. And I'm not struggling for any other.

Now back to the lesson: Temptation in most of the context it was used in scriptures, such as the ones used in the OP is test, proving and affliction.

Temptation as used in 1Corinthians 10:13 was translated from the greek word: 'peirasmos' and it means: (a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.

You did say temptation has to do with sin. And by this, I believe you mean temptation can lead to sin. That was exactly what Abraham faced. He was tempted or tested as you said, but either way, we are saying the same thing. Abraham (Like so many today), could have easily fallen for the temptation (testing) of God and refused to sacrifice Isaac. And what would that be called? Sin, right?

Job was also tempted or tested in the same vain. He could have also cursed God and died like his wife suggested. And what would that have been? Sin (right?). Hence, temptation is the same as test.

James tells us that God does not tempt anyone with sin. And by that, he meant 'enticement', from the context.

So from scriptural authority, God does tempt or test, but he does not entice with sin.

About training, I see you put much of your confidence in the philosophy of men rather than scriptural authority.

I have learnt from and still do learn from men. But my doctrines are only built from scriptural authority. And tell you what? By God's grace, the results over the years, has been most exhilarating and terrific.

And if you think my doctrine of faith is too simplistic for you, you might as well follow your sophisticated ones.

Only that I will advice you to judge the good tree by its fruits. And not by their glamour.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
329
90
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#45
My wife has a friend who had absolutely complete faith that her husband would be cured from cancer, but he was not -- he died. He, too, was absolutely sure that God would free him from the disease. My wife's friend told us that she totally lost faith in God for over a year.

I can't do what you say because I don't have the gift of healing. I do pray for my kids, but I can't lay my hands on them and say "be healed".
Well Sir, I too have prayed for people, including my own father, and they ended up dieing in spite of my strong faith. For my dad, God gave me the reason, while for so many of them, the obvious reason was unbelief. And for a few of them, God was silent. But that has never stopped me from believing that I can lay hands on People and see them healed. I must believe and act on the word of God unto death, no matter what. And that's all Jesus expects of us.

About your refusing to lay your hands on your kids for their healings, have you never read, that as many that believes in Jesus, they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover?(Mark 16:15-18). You believe in Jesus, so if you lay your hands on the sick surely, they will recover. God is not a liar.

Don't allow other people's experience deter your faith.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
1,120
157
63
67
#46
... I too have prayed for people, including my own father, and they ended up dieing in spite of my strong faith...
Brother Emeke, I appreciate your concern about my kids and beg you to pray for all of us. Please, pray that God will increase my faith and convert my children.

Now let me tell you an uplifting testimony told by a friend of mine: His dad was taking part in a 3-day meeting for elders and deacons. He (a deacon) was sitting on his bed in the dorm and looked dejected. An elder was passing by and asked him: "What's the matter with you?". The deacon answered: "I have a malignant tumor in my neck and, according to the doctors, my case is hopeless". The elder replied: "This is easy! Let's get on our knees right now". The elder prayed with his hand on his brother and God performed a miracle: The deacon was instantly cured.

I'm telling you this testimony -- without being an eyewitness -- because I completely trust my friend.

There is a big difference between that elder and me: First of all he was an elder, secondly he had a great faith and thirdly he was being led by God -- he was absolutely sure that God wanted him to do that.

Now let's read James 5:14-15 New International Version (NIV)

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders (not any brother or sister) of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

Note: Before that elder many other elders had already prayed for the deacon and nothing happened. The power does not rest with us -- it rests with God only.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
329
90
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#47
Brother Emeke, I appreciate your concern about my kids and beg you to pray for all of us. Please, pray that God will increase my faith and convert my children.

Now let me tell you an uplifting testimony told by a friend of mine: His dad was taking part in a 3-day meeting for elders and deacons. He (a deacon) was sitting on his bed in the dorm and looked dejected. An elder was passing by and asked him: "What's the matter with you?". The deacon answered: "I have a malignant tumor in my neck and, according to the doctors, my case is hopeless". The elder replied: "This is easy! Let's get on our knees right now". The elder prayed with his hand on his brother and God performed a miracle: The deacon was instantly cured.

I'm telling you this testimony -- without being an eyewitness -- because I completely trust my friend.

There is a big difference between that elder and me: First of all he was an elder, secondly he had a great faith and thirdly he was being led by God -- he was absolutely sure that God wanted him to do that.

Now let's read James 5:14-15 New International Version (NIV)

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders (not any brother or sister) of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

Note: Before that elder many other elders had already prayed for the deacon and nothing happened. The power does not rest with us -- it rests with God only.
Alright Sir,

I will be praying for you and I know there will sudden answers. And I want you to be expectant of sudden change in your family in Jesus name.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
1,120
157
63
67
#48
Alright Sir,

I will be praying for you and I know there will sudden answers. And I want you to be expectant of sudden change in your family in Jesus name.
Amen, brother Emeke! I do expect important changes to happen in our lives. I asked you to pray for us because I feel you're a man of God.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,273
1,186
113
#49
Dear Angela,

I understand your reaction, it is full of emotions. Which is characteristic of women (I have a Christian wife like you, that's how I know).
But you see, I am not in anyway condemning anyone for being sick. I'm only saying what is written in scriptures. The word of God particularly tells us that Jesus could not do much mighty works in his city because of unbelief (Mathhew 13:58).

And to be very frank with you, I have seen (and still see) many lie sick, and die like flies on daily basis because of unbelief. Including fervent Christians that have been far there before me. Many who have been offended in my teachings, instead of taking my loving rebuke and advice have remained sickly and die prematurely (My late fiance is an example).

While on the other hand, over the years I have seen people accept my loving rebuke and guide and have consistently enjoyed perfect health and good life. All to the glory of God...

And as for my teaching authority, I don't have to struggle to prove it to you or any body. I don't strife. Only that it is necessary for me to mention it, so people can receive me in the name of a teacher and not in the name of a brother. So they can receive a teacher's reward like so many others.

Over the years, the Lord have mightily confirmed my calling with gamut of testimonies. From salvation, transformation of lives, activation of ministries and spiritual gifts and healings, etc... Hence, the Lord already honours my office. And I'm not struggling for any other.

Now back to the lesson: Temptation in most of the context it was used in scriptures, such as the ones used in the OP is test, proving and affliction.

Temptation as used in 1Corinthians 10:13 was translated from the greek word: 'peirasmos' and it means: (a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.

You did say temptation has to do with sin. And by this, I believe you mean temptation can lead to sin. That was exactly what Abraham faced. He was tempted or tested as you said, but either way, we are saying the same thing. Abraham (Like so many today), could have easily fallen for the temptation (testing) of God and refused to sacrifice Isaac. And what would that be called? Sin, right?

Job was also tempted or tested in the same vain. He could have also cursed God and died like his wife suggested. And what would that have been? Sin (right?). Hence, temptation is the same as test.

James tells us that God does not tempt anyone with sin. And by that, he meant 'enticement', from the context.

So from scriptural authority, God does tempt or test, but he does not entice with sin.

About training, I see you put much of your confidence in the philosophy of men rather than scriptural authority.

I have learnt from and still do learn from men. But my doctrines are only built from scriptural authority. And tell you what? By God's grace, the results over the years, has been most exhilarating and terrific.

And if you think my doctrine of faith is too simplistic for you, you might as well follow your sophisticated ones.

Only that I will advice you to judge the good tree by its fruits. And not by their glamour.
What a misogynist reply! Seriously! In fact, I am not an overemotional person, but I am highly passionate in coming against the doctrinal errors you keep on propagating. Perhaps you have not heard my personal testimony of the damage that your Word Faith (call it what you will, when you blame people for not having enough faith, or "unbelief" that is the essence of the corrupt Word Faith doctrine!)

I got Rheumatoid Arthritis in 1997, which was not properly diagnosed or treated. By 1999, I had to quit work, and go on disability, I was so disabled. During that period, and after, I had 2 friends who believed the lies you do. They prayed for me. When I was not healed, they told me I did not have enough faith.

I was so devastated by the horrific pain, and then being told my relationship with God was not right, I turned away from God for 2 years. Any false doctrine which turns people away from God, is evil. I know, my relationship with God was good, and there was NO UNBELIEF in my life. But, these people kept telling me I would be healed, if I would only believe. To top it off, I was not being treated well, by modern medicine, having been judged as only "mild" RA. I finally got to a point where I stopped reading my Bible, stopped going to church, and turned my face to the wall, like Hezekiah. I did not stop believing in God, I knew he was there, but more important, God did not stop believing in me. Eventually, he used this time in a spiritual desert for tremendous good.

Meanwhile, both my Word Faith friends got sick. One got breast cancer. She and her church prayed. She was ordained by Kenneth Copeland Ministries, and they prayed. She refused chemo treatment, saying she had been healed. And she believed God for healing. Within a year, she was dead, when the cancer metastasized to her brain, driving her insane. So much for belief!

The other friend got an enlarged prostate. He prayed, his church prayed. He claimed healing. He had tremendous faith, having actually been healed of other conditions. But, he did not go to the doctor. He was found almost dead on the floor of his house by a friend, who took him to the hospital, where they immediately operated and saved his life. He now believes God can use doctors.

As for me, I have my ups and downs with my illness. But, God is more real with each passing day. I grow closer to him through the sickness and the pain. That is the testimony of Scripture.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5

After I recovered, getting on better meds, God called me to seminary, where I was able to learn the original languages, hermeneutics, and many skills for helping people. I have a ministry to the hurting and broken. I do stand against this shallow and evil gospel that condemns people who are sick, as "not having enough faith."

As for the word, נָסָה in G enesis 22:1, here is what Brown-Driver-Briggs says about the word. The third meaning is
3. "test, try, prove, tempt (not in the modern sense of the word!).
a. God tests or proves - Abraham in Genesis 22:1.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
6,872
1,958
113
#50
Dear Angela,

I understand your reaction, it is full of emotions. Which is characteristic of women (I have a Christian wife like you, that's how I know).
The bolded comment is disgustingly misogynistic. Angela is a well-respected member of this community, as well as being a pastor and respected teacher in her own right. Your comment is demeaning to Angela specifically and to women generally and has absolutely no place in the heart of a Christian minister.

Perhaps you should evaluate the comments of others on the basis of the truth they contain, rather than the gender of their writer.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,273
1,186
113
#51
As for 1 Cor. 10:13

" No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it." NET

In Greek, the word for "trial or test" is πειρασμὸς. And it does mean "tempt" in this circumstance. In fact, the entire passage is talking about sin, not illness!

"But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. 6 These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did. 7 So do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8 And let us not be immoral, as some of them were, and twenty-three thousand died in a single day. 9 And let us not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by snakes. 10 And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel. 11 These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 So let the one who thinks he is standing be careful that he does not fall. 13 No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it." 1 Cor. 10:5-13. NET

This is not referring to Abraham and the testing God put him through, to approve him. This is about temptation, and sin! All three examples are about the idolatrous Israelites, who were immoral, testing God, and then destroyed for their complaining, which was maligning God for their circumstances.

All these situations are about sin. And that we will also be tempted by sin. That is the message of this passage. It has NOTHING to do with Genesis 22:1, which is about proving oneself - or in fact, Abraham proving himself to God, a test God knew he would pass! If you want a NT example of testing, try, 1 Peter 4:12-16

" Dear friends, do not be astonished that a trial by fire is occurring among you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice in the degree that you have shared in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice and be glad. 14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory, who is the Spirit of God, rests on you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or thief or criminal or as a troublemaker. 16 But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name." 1 Peter 4:12-16

Here, Peter is using the word πειρασμὸν (Accusative Case) in the sense of "an attempt to learn the nature or character of something, test, trial." This would be a far better comparison to Genesis 22:1

In fact, the Septuagint, or Greek OT, uses ἐπείραζεν from πειράζω in Genesis 22:1. BDAG (Bauer) is clear about this.

"Of God or Christ, who put people to the test, in a positive sense. Also of painful trials sent by God - Abraham Gen. 22:1, 1 Cor. 10:13." page 793 BDAG

You are completely wrong with your doctrine, your comparison of the OT and the NT, and this entire Word Faith heresy. If you want to be a teacher, (and I know I have said this before, and it bears repeating!) then go to school, learn about the original languages, but especially about hermeneutics, or how to correctly divide the Word of God.

As for your name calling, that is pretty low, but I am made of teflon where someone with no education or Biblical training is concerned, calling me names! My biggest concern, is not for this petty name calling, but that you are leading people astray with bad doctrine, which is cobbled together with verses that do not belong together, are out of context, and misapplied words.

Again, I urge you to get some Biblical training and reevaluate this shallow doctrine that people are ill because of their own sin, and their unbelief. I am not denying that God heals people, nor that in some circumstances, sin does lead to sickness. For example, people who smoke, have a much higher rate of lung cancer, asthma and emphysema. And then there is me! I never smoked a day in my life, avoided it at all costs! And yet, I have asthma. A disease which is genetic and in my case, related to allergies.

Anyway, when you accuse someone of unbelief, you have no idea their walk with God. I have always walked with God. I have not been perfect, but God has been! I do not rely on myself, but on the Spirit of the living God, who leads and guides me, in all things! No, there is no unbelief in my life. But, there is a lot of awe and amazement that the Creator of the universe, the Saviour of our souls, Jesus Christ, picked me and called me to be his own, through sickness and good times!

I know my Redeemer lives! (Job 19:25) What worries me, is all the people you are judging, condemning and harming with this incredibly false doctrine and heresy from the pit of hell! What upsets me, is all the people you are hurting who are sick, instead of being a person who helps them through the fires and the floods, as God says he does, for those who believe him!

"Don’t be afraid, for I will protect you.
I call you by name, you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I am with you;
when you pass through the streams, they will not overwhelm you.
When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned;
the flames will not harm you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your deliverer." Isa. 43:1b-3a
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
329
90
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#52
I don't have any prejudice against women I love everyone. I was only stating a well known fact. It is axiomatic that women are more emotional than men. You can research if you think I am just making things up.

And if you are to be unbiased, most of Angela's words have got lots of emotions attached. Yet she complains of name calling.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
329
90
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#53
What a misogynist reply! Seriously! In fact, I am not an overemotional person, but I am highly passionate in coming against the doctrinal errors you keep on propagating. Perhaps you have not heard my personal testimony of the damage that your Word Faith (call it what you will, when you blame people for not having enough faith, or "unbelief" that is the essence of the corrupt Word Faith doctrine!)

I got Rheumatoid Arthritis in 1997, which was not properly diagnosed or treated. By 1999, I had to quit work, and go on disability, I was so disabled. During that period, and after, I had 2 friends who believed the lies you do. They prayed for me. When I was not healed, they told me I did not have enough faith.

I was so devastated by the horrific pain, and then being told my relationship with God was not right, I turned away from God for 2 years. Any false doctrine which turns people away from God, is evil. I know, my relationship with God was good, and there was NO UNBELIEF in my life. But, these people kept telling me I would be healed, if I would only believe. To top it off, I was not being treated well, by modern medicine, having been judged as only "mild" RA. I finally got to a point where I stopped reading my Bible, stopped going to church, and turned my face to the wall, like Hezekiah. I did not stop believing in God, I knew he was there, but more important, God did not stop believing in me. Eventually, he used this time in a spiritual desert for tremendous good.

Meanwhile, both my Word Faith friends got sick. One got breast cancer. She and her church prayed. She was ordained by Kenneth Copeland Ministries, and they prayed. She refused chemo treatment, saying she had been healed. And she believed God for healing. Within a year, she was dead, when the cancer metastasized to her brain, driving her insane. So much for belief!

The other friend got an enlarged prostate. He prayed, his church prayed. He claimed healing. He had tremendous faith, having actually been healed of other conditions. But, he did not go to the doctor. He was found almost dead on the floor of his house by a friend, who took him to the hospital, where they immediately operated and saved his life. He now believes God can use doctors.

As for me, I have my ups and downs with my illness. But, God is more real with each passing day. I grow closer to him through the sickness and the pain. That is the testimony of Scripture.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5

After I recovered, getting on better meds, God called me to seminary, where I was able to learn the original languages, hermeneutics, and many skills for helping people. I have a ministry to the hurting and broken. I do stand against this shallow and evil gospel that condemns people who are sick, as "not having enough faith."

As for the word, נָסָה in G enesis 22:1, here is what Brown-Driver-Briggs says about the word. The third meaning is
3. "test, try, prove, tempt (not in the modern sense of the word!).
a. God tests or proves - Abraham in Genesis 22:1.

I understand your plight from your testimony. But my writing wasn't particularly directed to you and every sick people. I did say in my opening post that I knew the particular woman I ministered to did have a problem with unbelief. I knew that from her words.

Yes, it is true that some word of faith practitioners have died in their faith. But much more are bed-ridden and have died in their unbelief.

And I see you rely so much on human authority than scriptures. You just quoted a man here, with his own opinion about what Gen 22:1 says. And based on that, you make your inference. But going that way isn't quite safe.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
329
90
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#54
As for 1 Cor. 10:13

" No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it." NET

In Greek, the word for "trial or test" is πειρασμὸς. And it does mean "tempt" in this circumstance. In fact, the entire passage is talking about sin, not illness!

"But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. 6 These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did. 7 So do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8 And let us not be immoral, as some of them were, and twenty-three thousand died in a single day. 9 And let us not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by snakes. 10 And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel. 11 These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 So let the one who thinks he is standing be careful that he does not fall. 13 No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it." 1 Cor. 10:5-13. NET

This is not referring to Abraham and the testing God put him through, to approve him. This is about temptation, and sin! All three examples are about the idolatrous Israelites, who were immoral, testing God, and then destroyed for their complaining, which was maligning God for their circumstances.

All these situations are about sin. And that we will also be tempted by sin. That is the message of this passage. It has NOTHING to do with Genesis 22:1, which is about proving oneself - or in fact, Abraham proving himself to God, a test God knew he would pass! If you want a NT example of testing, try, 1 Peter 4:12-16

" Dear friends, do not be astonished that a trial by fire is occurring among you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice in the degree that you have shared in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice and be glad. 14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory, who is the Spirit of God, rests on you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or thief or criminal or as a troublemaker. 16 But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name." 1 Peter 4:12-16

Here, Peter is using the word πειρασμὸν (Accusative Case) in the sense of "an attempt to learn the nature or character of something, test, trial." This would be a far better comparison to Genesis 22:1

In fact, the Septuagint, or Greek OT, uses ἐπείραζεν from πειράζω in Genesis 22:1. BDAG (Bauer) is clear about this.

"Of God or Christ, who put people to the test, in a positive sense. Also of painful trials sent by God - Abraham Gen. 22:1, 1 Cor. 10:13." page 793 BDAG

You are completely wrong with your doctrine, your comparison of the OT and the NT, and this entire Word Faith heresy. If you want to be a teacher, (and I know I have said this before, and it bears repeating!) then go to school, learn about the original languages, but especially about hermeneutics, or how to correctly divide the Word of God.

As for your name calling, that is pretty low, but I am made of teflon where someone with no education or Biblical training is concerned, calling me names! My biggest concern, is not for this petty name calling, but that you are leading people astray with bad doctrine, which is cobbled together with verses that do not belong together, are out of context, and misapplied words.

Again, I urge you to get some Biblical training and reevaluate this shallow doctrine that people are ill because of their own sin, and their unbelief. I am not denying that God heals people, nor that in some circumstances, sin does lead to sickness. For example, people who smoke, have a much higher rate of lung cancer, asthma and emphysema. And then there is me! I never smoked a day in my life, avoided it at all costs! And yet, I have asthma. A disease which is genetic and in my case, related to allergies.

Anyway, when you accuse someone of unbelief, you have no idea their walk with God. I have always walked with God. I have not been perfect, but God has been! I do not rely on myself, but on the Spirit of the living God, who leads and guides me, in all things! No, there is no unbelief in my life. But, there is a lot of awe and amazement that the Creator of the universe, the Saviour of our souls, Jesus Christ, picked me and called me to be his own, through sickness and good times!

I know my Redeemer lives! (Job 19:25) What worries me, is all the people you are judging, condemning and harming with this incredibly false doctrine and heresy from the pit of hell! What upsets me, is all the people you are hurting who are sick, instead of being a person who helps them through the fires and the floods, as God says he does, for those who believe him!

"Don’t be afraid, for I will protect you.
I call you by name, you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I am with you;
when you pass through the streams, they will not overwhelm you.
When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned;
the flames will not harm you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your deliverer." Isa. 43:1b-3a
You seem to boast so much of education. We are here to discuss the gospel, not academic prowess. Though if we are to toe that line, God has really been very gracious to me along that line too. Both in secular and biblical education. But I don't put my confidence in all that. My confidence is only on the authority of the unadulterated word of God.

I have seen people with great and commendable faith amidst their afflictions. Yet on the other hand, I have also seen people with great unbelief and despair in their times of trials.

And I don't see anything wrong in rebuking someone of unbelief when I perceive it in him or her. Yes, Faith or Unbelief can easily be perceived.

And yes, people have died in their faith, and others have died in their unbelief. But there is more hope of the people who die in faith than those who die in unbelief. Faith is a virtue, while unbelief on the other hand is a sin. In short, unbelievers happen to make the second category of sinners that the Bible says will be throne into the lake of fire (see Revalations 22:1).

And that is why we Word of Faith preachers are strongly against unbelief in all its ramification.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
6,872
1,958
113
#55
I don't have any prejudice against women I love everyone. I was only stating a well known fact. It is axiomatic that women are more emotional than men. You can research if you think I am just making things up.

And if you are to be unbiased, most of Angela's words have got lots of emotions attached. Yet she complains of name calling.
Two rebukes and you double down on your sexism. Sad.

Since you are so certain of your "axiomatic" position, then you can provide the unbiased evidence. You made the assertion; support it or withdraw it. I'm not doing your homework for you, and I don't tolerate burden of proof reversal fallacies such as yours.

There is a MASSIVE difference between noting that, in broadly general terms, women are more adept at expressing emotions than men, and claiming that "women are more emotional than men". Your response to Angela was and so far remains misogynistic, your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. Thinking that "women are more emotional than men" is inherently prejudicial.

Your closing line is a tu quoque fallacy. You don't get out of the line of fire by accusing your accuser. Stand up and take the rebuke.

Again, I suggest that you deal with words and ignore gender except where it is central to the issue. Here, it most certainly isn't.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
83
#56
There is no doubt that Christians need to have faith. We walk by faith, and not by sight. Faith is both a manifestation of the gift of the holy spirit and a fruit of the spirit. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

But many Wof ministries have perverted what faith is and what it can do. Faith in and of itself does not procure things for people. If a Christian is sick, he can't just "believe for" healing and expect it to happen. That type of language is not in the Bible. Many WoF movements insist that if a sick person does not get healed, it's because of unbelief. IOW, the blame for the fact that he's not healed gets placed on the shoulders of the person who is sick. It's a gospel of condemnation rather than deliverance. "If you had enough faith, you would be healed." Baloney.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
764
113
#57
I was just interested in the emotions difference thing and I have found this German paper:

"Numerous studies have shown that, compared with men, women usually experience more frequent and stronger negative emotions [3,4]. This may explain why more women are more prone to mood disorders [47]. Gohier et al. [8] adopted a priming paradigm and found that negative stimuli reduce the priming effects on women. They explained that women are more sensitive to negative stimuli, and this heightened sensitivity interferes with their processing of negative stimuli."

On the other hand, this is interesting:

The findings suggest that, when watching videos that induce an emotional response, men often have more intense emotional experiences, whereas women have higher emotional expressivity, particularly for negative emotions. In addition, gender differences depend on the specific emotion type but not the valence.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0158666
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
5,133
145
63
#58
If someone is in a wheelchair, what good will it do God?
Have you considered that if the person praises God regardless of their circumstance, others will see this person praising God regardless of their apparent disability and bring glory to God?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,273
1,186
113
#59
You seem to boast so much of education. We are here to discuss the gospel, not academic prowess. Though if we are to toe that line, God has really been very gracious to me along that line too. Both in secular and biblical education. But I don't put my confidence in all that. My confidence is only on the authority of the unadulterated word of God.

I have seen people with great and commendable faith amidst their afflictions. Yet on the other hand, I have also seen people with great unbelief and despair in their times of trials.

And I don't see anything wrong in rebuking someone of unbelief when I perceive it in him or her. Yes, Faith or Unbelief can easily be perceived.

And yes, people have died in their faith, and others have died in their unbelief. But there is more hope of the people who die in faith than those who die in unbelief. Faith is a virtue, while unbelief on the other hand is a sin. In short, unbelievers happen to make the second category of sinners that the Bible says will be throne into the lake of fire (see Revalations 22:1).

And that is why we Word of Faith preachers are strongly against unbelief in all its ramification.
As to my education, it has given me the tools to rightly divide the Word of God, and to do research, as well as to teach, preach, but even more important, to minister to the hurting and broken.

I do not lack faith, but I will suggest you do. You lack the faith to see God's handiwork in those of us who are suffering. In fact, the strongest Christians I know all have a cross to bear. I have been reading a number of books on spiritual formation, and many of these writers are unequivocal in their condemnation of Word Faith writers and teachers. Because, Word Faith teachers do not understand that we grow better in times of adversity, than when the money is flowing, and the health is good. They have "settled" for a simplistic and vapid explanation for the glorious message of the gospel.

Which is not to say that a Christian must suffer to grow into the likeness of Christ. But, certainly, to have empathy and compassion, which is never elicited in trite answers like "you didn't get healed because you didn't have enough faith." What a narrow perspective on the vastness and greatness of God, and his intent for his people. I first started reading the likes of Kenyon, Hagin and Copeland back in the 1980's, in my Pentecostal days. I fear I slipped far away from what God had planned for me, which was a healer of souls, rather than a healer of bodies. I am grateful God allowed me to be sick, rather than continue in this stale and rigid doctrine - which is not really even based on the bible, but on bad interpretations by money hungry and greedy men.

The fact is, one day, we will meet Jesus face to face. (1 John 3:2; 1 Cor. 13:12) On that blessed day, what is going to count is not how many people did or did not get healed, including ourselves. What is going to count is how we have grown in character, how much closer to Jesus. What is going to count, is how many. people we were able to reconcile to God. What is going to count, is how many people have fallen in love with Christ, because they saw the love of Christ within us.

As for signs and wonders?

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;" Matt 12:38-39

"As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah." Luke 11:29

I don't need physical healing to grow close Jesus, why do you?

As far as education, you have no idea how to correctly divide the Word of God. You really need to take some courses in the original languages, and also in hermeneutics and find out how you have been badly led astray. It is not that my education makes me better than you, it is that it helps me understand the best way to read the bible, so I don't end up in a cult, like you have!

PS. With regards to my gender, and your ridiculous insults, how would you feel if I started saying the reason that you are so lacking in understanding knowledge of how to correctly read the bible is because of the colour of your skin? Well, there really is no difference between that and what you have said to me! Except, I would never say that, having known some very godly women and men of colour, who did know how to correctly read the bible. I do hope you will think a bit about your nonsense with regards to gender. Because, God calls us all equally, if you read Gal. 3:28. As to "roles" perhaps you need to re-read Genesis, and find out where roles start! After the fall, which Christ came to redeem us from. But, that is another thread, and one which goes on for many long pages!
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,473
261
83
52
#60
As to my education, it has given me the tools to rightly divide the Word of God, and to do research, as well as to teach, preach, but even more important, to minister to the hurting and broken.

I do not lack faith, but I will suggest you do. You lack the faith to see God's handiwork in those of us who are suffering. In fact, the strongest Christians I know all have a cross to bear. I have been reading a number of books on spiritual formation, and many of these writers are unequivocal in their condemnation of Word Faith writers and teachers. Because, Word Faith teachers do not understand that we grow better in times of adversity, than when the money is flowing, and the health is good. They have "settled" for a simplistic and vapid explanation for the glorious message of the gospel.

Which is not to say that a Christian must suffer to grow into the likeness of Christ. But, certainly, to have empathy and compassion, which is never elicited in trite answers like "you didn't get healed because you didn't have enough faith." What a narrow perspective on the vastness and greatness of God, and his intent for his people. I first started reading the likes of Kenyon, Hagin and Copeland back in the 1980's, in my Pentecostal days. I fear I slipped far away from what God had planned for me, which was a healer of souls, rather than a healer of bodies. I am grateful God allowed me to be sick, rather than continue in this stale and rigid doctrine - which is not really even based on the bible, but on bad interpretations by money hungry and greedy men.

The fact is, one day, we will meet Jesus face to face. (1 John 3:2; 1 Cor. 13:12) On that blessed day, what is going to count is not how many people did or did not get healed, including ourselves. What is going to count is how we have grown in character, how much closer to Jesus. What is going to count, is how many. people we were able to reconcile to God. What is going to count, is how many people have fallen in love with Christ, because they saw the love of Christ within us.

As for signs and wonders?

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;" Matt 12:38-39

"As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah." Luke 11:29

I don't need physical healing to grow close Jesus, why do you?

As far as education, you have no idea how to correctly divide the Word of God. You really need to take some courses in the original languages, and also in hermeneutics and find out how you have been badly led astray. It is not that my education makes me better than you, it is that it helps me understand the best way to read the bible, so I don't end up in a cult, like you have!

PS. With regards to my gender, and your ridiculous insults, how would you feel if I started saying the reason that you are so lacking in understanding knowledge of how to correctly read the bible is because of the colour of your skin? Well, there really is no difference between that and what you have said to me! Except, I would never say that, having known some very godly women and men of colour, who did know how to correctly read the bible. I do hope you will think a bit about your nonsense with regards to gender. Because, God calls us all equally, if you read Gal. 3:28. As to "roles" perhaps you need to re-read Genesis, and find out where roles start! After the fall, which Christ came to redeem us from. But, that is another thread, and one which goes on for many long pages!
Hello Angela
I am not sure if your going to make any progress with him .
It’s a scientific fact that men have a real hard time admitting they are wrong .
Blessings
Bill