Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
#2
Really you should have a comment with the video :confused:

I think he is preaching sinless perfectionism if I understand him correctly?

I definitely disagree then.

From the youtube comments...
This guy sounds like another works salvation. He says that it's the works done in faith that gain your salvation like Abraham but the question remains how many faithful works must be carried out until God says "okay come on in"
Josh Gaston 1 year ago (edited)
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#3
Really you should have a comment with the video :confused:

I think he is preaching sinless perfectionism if I understand him correctly?

I definitely disagree then.

From the youtube comments...
This guy sounds like another works salvation. He says that it's the works done in faith that gain your salvation like Abraham but the question remains how many faithful works must be carried out until God says "okay come on in"
Josh Gaston 1 year ago (edited)
I agree that he preaches too much on condemnation which I don't think is alright either
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#4
I agree that he preaches too much on condemnation which I don't think is alright either
More than condemnation, a website promoting works save.:(

theylied.org the website for the You Tube channel author

Obedience to God is the key for salvation. God will not let sinners into Heaven but only those who are righteous.

It is commonly taught in just about every church that man is saved by faith alone. If someone tries to add anything else to faith alone they are considered legalistic, self righteous, trying to earn their way to heaven by themselves, a pharisee, and the list goes on. But what does the Bible say about faith alone? Are we only saved by faith and what happens after (Repentance, obedience, ect…) Is just a sign we had true faith and we are genuine? Or is obedience and Repentance required for salvation along with faith? Let’s read what the Bible says.

http://theylied.org/faith-alone-wont-save-someone/
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,025
506
113
#5
Can you please explain to me what is wrong with the following analysis of penal substitution. In other words explain why in your opinion it is not Biblical?

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is the view that Christ was a legal substitute for us on the cross and that he bore the penalty for our sins that is due to us. (Penal means legal as in penal-colony) Jesus was made under the Law (Galatians 4:4) and bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). At his crucifixion, he was “pierced through for our transgressions” and received our chastening and scourging (Isa. 53:4-5). What was due to us he bore by being made sin (2 Cor. 5:21). This is exactly what the Penal Substitutionary Atonement is. This is also called the Vicarious Atonement of Christ.

  • Isaiah 53:4–5, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed."
  • Mark 10:45, “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
  • 2 Corinthians 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
  • 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Penal means legal and, of course, “substitutionary” means that he took our place. The legal aspect of Jesus’ atonement is evident in that He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and he obeyed the Law perfectly (1 Pet. 2:22). According to the Law, He was the sacrificial Lamb (Ex. 12:3; John 1:29), who as a Priest (Lev. 4:20; Heb. 7:23-24), who also made atonement (Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:14). He was without blemish (Deut. 17:1; Heb. 9:14), and He offered himself on Passover (Exodus 12:11-13; John 19:14-15). So, he was a legal (penal) sacrifice. His sacrifice was substitutionary in that the judgment that was due to us, he bore. So, he was smitten of God and afflicted (Isaiah 54:4) as we should have been due to our sin. He “was pierced through for our transgressions” and the “chastening for our well-being fell upon him” (Isaiah 54:5). Notice that what was due to us, He took upon Himself. Also, our iniquity fell upon Him (Isaiah 54:6; Heb. 9:28). Because sin is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4), and because Jesus equated sin with legal debt (Matt. 6:12; Luke 11:4), and because legal debts can be transferred, he then bore our sin when our sins were imputed to Him on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), and He cancelled the sin debt on the cross (Col. 2:14). Also, the death that we deserve (Rom. 6:23), he experienced (1 Pet. 3:18) on the cross. It was there that He became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21) and offered Himself as a sacrifice to God the Father (Eph. 5:2; Heb. 9:14) so that we might be justified by faith (Rom. 3:26, 28). His sacrifice was according to the Law (Penal), and He took our judgment (substitutionary) thereby satisfying the requirement of the Law of God and saving the lost through His legal, substitutionary atonement.

Though there are varying views of the atonement, the Vicarious Substitutionary Atonement (Penal Substitutionary Atonement) best explains the Scripture and most importantly, it probably relates the satisfaction of Law as a relates to the holiness of God.

IN HIM;
bluto
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#6
I agree that he preaches too much on condemnation which I don't think is alright either
Is Mr. Collin Micheal (You Tuber) on this discussion board, it sure sounds familiar:eek:
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#7
With regards to this video he is arguing penal substitution is non biblical so he can promote a "sinless perfectionism"

I agree with your post, you should send it to the speaker in the video:)


Can you please explain to me what is wrong with the following analysis of penal substitution. In other words explain why in your opinion it is not Biblical?

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is the view that Christ was a legal substitute for us on the cross and that he bore the penalty for our sins that is due to us. (Penal means legal as in penal-colony) Jesus was made under the Law (Galatians 4:4) and bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). At his crucifixion, he was “pierced through for our transgressions” and received our chastening and scourging (Isa. 53:4-5). What was due to us he bore by being made sin (2 Cor. 5:21). This is exactly what the Penal Substitutionary Atonement is. This is also called the Vicarious Atonement of Christ.

  • Isaiah 53:4–5, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed."
  • Mark 10:45, “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
  • 2 Corinthians 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
  • 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Penal means legal and, of course, “substitutionary” means that he took our place. The legal aspect of Jesus’ atonement is evident in that He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and he obeyed the Law perfectly (1 Pet. 2:22). According to the Law, He was the sacrificial Lamb (Ex. 12:3; John 1:29), who as a Priest (Lev. 4:20; Heb. 7:23-24), who also made atonement (Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:14). He was without blemish (Deut. 17:1; Heb. 9:14), and He offered himself on Passover (Exodus 12:11-13; John 19:14-15). So, he was a legal (penal) sacrifice. His sacrifice was substitutionary in that the judgment that was due to us, he bore. So, he was smitten of God and afflicted (Isaiah 54:4) as we should have been due to our sin. He “was pierced through for our transgressions” and the “chastening for our well-being fell upon him” (Isaiah 54:5). Notice that what was due to us, He took upon Himself. Also, our iniquity fell upon Him (Isaiah 54:6; Heb. 9:28). Because sin is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4), and because Jesus equated sin with legal debt (Matt. 6:12; Luke 11:4), and because legal debts can be transferred, he then bore our sin when our sins were imputed to Him on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), and He cancelled the sin debt on the cross (Col. 2:14). Also, the death that we deserve (Rom. 6:23), he experienced (1 Pet. 3:18) on the cross. It was there that He became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21) and offered Himself as a sacrifice to God the Father (Eph. 5:2; Heb. 9:14) so that we might be justified by faith (Rom. 3:26, 28). His sacrifice was according to the Law (Penal), and He took our judgment (substitutionary) thereby satisfying the requirement of the Law of God and saving the lost through His legal, substitutionary atonement.

Though there are varying views of the atonement, the Vicarious Substitutionary Atonement (Penal Substitutionary Atonement) best explains the Scripture and most importantly, it probably relates the satisfaction of Law as a relates to the holiness of God.

IN HIM;
bluto
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#8
More than condemnation, a website promoting works save.:(

theylied.org the website for the You Tube channel author

Obedience to God is the key for salvation. God will not let sinners into Heaven but only those who are righteous.

It is commonly taught in just about every church that man is saved by faith alone. If someone tries to add anything else to faith alone they are considered legalistic, self righteous, trying to earn their way to heaven by themselves, a pharisee, and the list goes on. But what does the Bible say about faith alone? Are we only saved by faith and what happens after (Repentance, obedience, ect…) Is just a sign we had true faith and we are genuine? Or is obedience and Repentance required for salvation along with faith? Let’s read what the Bible says.

http://theylied.org/faith-alone-wont-save-someone/
I would agree that he doesn't even understand what hell is.
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,712
1,721
113
#9
1 John 1:8-10
King James Version

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
+++
IMO,here John Is talking about a person coming to GOD from the world and repenting and GOD forgives them once and for all.
1 John 3:7-9
King James Version

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


When we got saved GOD made our spirits perfect and sealed us.

Its the SPIRIT that gives life the flesh counts for nothing concerning salvation,nevertheless a person that has had their spirit made perfect will seek to purify their flesh renewing their minds.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#10
I would agree that he doesn't even understand what hell is.
I will admit I did not get that far...maybe I will go back and listen again....but it pains me to do so.:rolleyes:
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#11
I could also start a study on hell.. I am NO supporter of Universal Salvation but I have a lot of troubles with the idea of eternal torment.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#12
Like all these complicated "doctrines"' they are debatable.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
#14
As an example, "church" is a poor translation for "ekklesia"
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#16
Seeing as every Christian so far has died a physical death either Christ's atonement was insufficient or believers faith was not great enough of there is more to Christ death than appears.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#17
Penal substitution has one simple flaw. The prisoner is free to continue to sin, so nothing
has changed. If one accepts heaven is the place where reality is chosen in righteousness,
the heart of each believer must desire this.
If a believer merely believes they are free, they are still sinners just free sinner destroying
and causing death in heaven.

If one believes God can force righteousness, believing loving behaviour on people, why not
create them straight off. If one believes righteousness is just a knee jerk reaction to fear,
why not terrify people into heaven.

The sad conclusion is the sinner has to open the door and want righteousness with their
whole soul, and to die to this world to live to the next.

But those who hate heaven and its ways will always oppose this idea, believing God is
greater than this and can make people into Gods children by force. The fact satan exists
and 1/3 of heaven fell shows even angels free choose and can fall. God chooses not to
force but to show loves example and call. And the answer to the call is the walk, testing,
change, cost, and finally victory.
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,712
1,721
113
#19
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#20
I thought you were In agreement with the man In the video because of the name of this thread,my bad.
:giggle:
I thought the same at first, but then knowing LW97 I was thinking naw can't be