Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement
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More than condemnation, a website promoting works save.
theylied.org the website for the You Tube channel author
Obedience to God is the key for salvation. God will not let sinners into Heaven but only those who are righteous.
It is commonly taught in just about every church that man is saved by faith alone. If someone tries to add anything else to faith alone they are considered legalistic, self righteous, trying to earn their way to heaven by themselves, a pharisee, and the list goes on. But what does the Bible say about faith alone? Are we only saved by faith and what happens after (Repentance, obedience, ect…) Is just a sign we had true faith and we are genuine? Or is obedience and Repentance required for salvation along with faith? Let’s read what the Bible says.
http://theylied.org/faith-alone-wont-save-someone/
theylied.org the website for the You Tube channel author
Obedience to God is the key for salvation. God will not let sinners into Heaven but only those who are righteous.
It is commonly taught in just about every church that man is saved by faith alone. If someone tries to add anything else to faith alone they are considered legalistic, self righteous, trying to earn their way to heaven by themselves, a pharisee, and the list goes on. But what does the Bible say about faith alone? Are we only saved by faith and what happens after (Repentance, obedience, ect…) Is just a sign we had true faith and we are genuine? Or is obedience and Repentance required for salvation along with faith? Let’s read what the Bible says.
http://theylied.org/faith-alone-wont-save-someone/
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So its seems that faith alone is not enough. And works is evidence of ones faith. Works can be seen as fruits of ones belief, we will know a person by their fruits just as you can determine a tree by their fruit.
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Faith and works go hand in hand. It is the faith that produces fruit. Doing the will of the Father may be seen as works but when you love God you do this naturally. You dont see it as works salvation, it just comes with wanting to please God and it comes from your Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps guide the born again believer.
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In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul makes it even clear.. He said we’re saved by grace through faith, and not by works. Grace is an unmerited favor that comes through faith and nothing else.
In Romans 3:21-22 he said we have a righteousness from God that comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, and in Romans 4:5 he said, “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked his faith is credited as righteousness.” Our righteousness is from God and comes through faith in Jesus Christ and nothing else.
And in Titus 3:4-5 he wrote, “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done but because of His mercy.”
James is not preaching on our justification before God, his teaching is justification before men.
He is teaching that we should be making external (works) what is an internal reality (salvation)...... that we are saved by faith apart from all and every work.
In Romans 3:21-22 he said we have a righteousness from God that comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, and in Romans 4:5 he said, “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked his faith is credited as righteousness.” Our righteousness is from God and comes through faith in Jesus Christ and nothing else.
And in Titus 3:4-5 he wrote, “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done but because of His mercy.”
James is not preaching on our justification before God, his teaching is justification before men.
He is teaching that we should be making external (works) what is an internal reality (salvation)...... that we are saved by faith apart from all and every work.
Hmm... i will pick C; there is more to Christ's death than appears,...
1) Father and Son (had to) agree(d) for it to be binding
2) Jesus said, I lay down my [mortal, which necessitates he laid down his eternal] life (and take it (eternal life) up again)...
What might've been our hope if he'd said, meh...on second thought, I think i'll just leave it there after all?
1) Father and Son (had to) agree(d) for it to be binding
2) Jesus said, I lay down my [mortal, which necessitates he laid down his eternal] life (and take it (eternal life) up again)...
What might've been our hope if he'd said, meh...on second thought, I think i'll just leave it there after all?
I joined the conversation without any idea of the contents of the video. Having just view it, the speaker seems to be espousing the the argument that the practicality of the application of Christ's blood atonement is for the cleansing of sin rather than a sin covering (and so should be sin-free). My understanding might be differentiated in that, after salvation, we abide in an already not yet state of duality, a being alive in spirit yet dwelling in flesh, so that we are not so much sin-free but free from the bondage of sin. As I see Paul's observation of his battle b/w his flesh and his spirit , " I do that I would not (ie, love my enemies) and do not that I would (ie, raid the cookie jar)," tho this is probably contrary of the more common interpretation that, I do that I would not (sin) and do not what I would (good). But then, I like to consider all possible angles before committing to any one just because it the most popular.
KJV Dictionary Definition: PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.
In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: propitiation
(Strong's #2434 — Noun Masculine — hilasmos — hil-as-mos' )
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: propitiation
Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25 , where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.
KJV Bible propitiation 3 verses
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NOTE: Christ is the propitiation/reconciling atonement for sin: Not only for the believing Jew, but, for the believing gentile as well)
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: propitiation
(Strong's #2434 — Noun Masculine — hilasmos — hil-as-mos' )
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: propitiation
Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25 , where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.
KJV Bible propitiation 3 verses
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NOTE: Christ is the propitiation/reconciling atonement for sin: Not only for the believing Jew, but, for the believing gentile as well)
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Yes, well. KJV readers just use the word propitiation instead of 'penal substitution' which is two words, both used to mean the same thing.
But whereas penal substitution goes with the idea of punishment, Jesus punished instead of us, on the cross, thats looking at it from a very roman point of view with the curcifixition, when the hebrews looked at it as a sacrifice like the passover lamb, something that appeased God.
Im going with propititiation because my bible does not say Jesus was the penal subsitute. I dont know what other translations say but thats not what mine says. And Jesus was more than Barabbas subsitute, the criminal that was let go and Jesus got crucified instead...because well he wasn't really, I mean he wasnt called in to be curcified to take up the exectution quota of the month, but one man did need to die for the whole nation, something the romans were aware of.
But whereas penal substitution goes with the idea of punishment, Jesus punished instead of us, on the cross, thats looking at it from a very roman point of view with the curcifixition, when the hebrews looked at it as a sacrifice like the passover lamb, something that appeased God.
Im going with propititiation because my bible does not say Jesus was the penal subsitute. I dont know what other translations say but thats not what mine says. And Jesus was more than Barabbas subsitute, the criminal that was let go and Jesus got crucified instead...because well he wasn't really, I mean he wasnt called in to be curcified to take up the exectution quota of the month, but one man did need to die for the whole nation, something the romans were aware of.