Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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Good day PennEd,

I understand your disagreement, but I am not saying anything that scripture isn't saying. We are saved by faith, on-going faith and not a one time confession. If a believer stops having faith, willfully living according to the sinful nature and falls away and dies in that state, then they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death. This is stated right in James 5:19-20, as well as the scriptures that I provided above and the vine and the branches teaching.

Jesus said "unless you take up your cross daily, you cannot be disciple."

So what if a believer doesn't take up his cross?

If we as believers don't forgive others, then neither will our heavenly Father forgive us.

What if we don't forgive?

How do you explain these and all of the scriptures that I've listed above?

I believe that every promise is dependent upon faith.

After we come to Christ we need to continue in faith, taking up our crosses daily. We just can't go back into willfully living according to the sinful nature and remaining there. I'm not talking about our sins that we commit while having faith. We are all sinners. I'm talking about complete apostasy. Paul said the following to the church at Corinth:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. "

The above is a warning to the Corinthian (and all believers) to not live that type of life, for if they do so they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Again, scripture states the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

So, according to the scripture above, continuing in faith is a requirement for being holy, unblemished and blameless.

I would also add that, the rebukes and their consequences found in the letters to the churches also demonstrate that those churches and individual believers cannot remain that state. These letters are not only to the original seven churches, but to all believers in the entire church period who must overcome, or suffer the consequences listed in the letters.

Blessings!
Amen, see also 1 Corinthians 9:27, the Greek word for "castaway" is translated as "reprobate" in Romans 1:28.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
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I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.
Some think just saying this means you are lost.
It is ironic, that some claim you can have salvation and never lose it, and gaining salvation is this simple
belief in Jesus, yet if you have all this and say it could be lost, you were never saved.

I think there are two problems here.
1. Who is the elect?
2. Who are the weeds planted by the enemy?

The elect are known from the beginning of time, and God has called them.
The weeds are an attempt by the enemy to disrupt Gods plans.

Now my brothers and sisters in Christ. Only the enemy thinks the weeds are significant.
We are simply called to learn from Jesus, to follow and to shine.

The elect can never lose their salvation, but only when we meet the Lord will they become clear.
And the ironic thing is some of the "weeds" come to faith and are part of the elect, while those
who appear to be the elect are weeds.

So if you want something true, those who put weeds above following Jesus, are false teachers.
And thats all that really needs to be said, because the Holy Spirit does not live within them, even
His word will be rejected, and their hearts will continue to sin and condemn with abandon.

God bless you
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
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I agree that many are fake, but you cannot say that about all of those who choose to walk away.
Some hold that they are saved, when they are in continual wilful rebellion and refuse to repent
of the sin they hold in their hearts. The law of God to them is a curse that condemns them whenever
they read it, yet the believe Christ has saved them, while their hearts shout rebellion and hatred.

The pharisees were equally blind to Jesus, because they did not love the Father.
Jesus himself declared that unless the love of the Father resides in our hearts we cannot love Him.

What does a believer do who needs to believe in God yet hates His precepts and principles?
They will condemn Gods people and rail against them as if they are the enemy preaching judgement
without mercy or love.

Until love reigns in someones heart, everything they speak will be distorted and not speaking from
the Lords heart.

God bless you, for when we see we can walk away from Jesus, we begin to see how we can walk
deeper and know the truth more fully, Amen.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,588
1,874
113
If our salvation depends on us then we are already lost. Apostates teach that salvation may be obtained like socks at the store and returned when they go out of fashion. This line of thinking is utter foolishness and diminishes the great cost by which the redemption of our souls has been purchased.

To be genuinely saved one must first face that they are utterly lost and doomed to an eternity in the lake of fire. They must first see themselves as wholly unworthy of redemption and justly deserving to be condemned. Only from there can one receive a proper perspective of what Christ has done for us when we did not know Him and had no desire to know Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,736
3,877
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Good day PennEd,

I understand your disagreement, but I am not saying anything that scripture isn't saying. We are saved by faith, on-going faith and not a one time confession. If a believer stops having faith, willfully living according to the sinful nature and falls away and dies in that state, then they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death. This is stated right in James 5:19-20, as well as the scriptures that I provided above and the vine and the branches teaching.

Jesus said "unless you take up your cross daily, you cannot be disciple."

So what if a believer doesn't take up his cross?

If we as believers don't forgive others, then neither will our heavenly Father forgive us.

What if we don't forgive?

How do you explain these and all of the scriptures that I've listed above?

I believe that every promise is dependent upon faith.

After we come to Christ we need to continue in faith, taking up our crosses daily. We just can't go back into willfully living according to the sinful nature and remaining there. I'm not talking about our sins that we commit while having faith. We are all sinners. I'm talking about complete apostasy. Paul said the following to the church at Corinth:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. "

The above is a warning to the Corinthian (and all believers) to not live that type of life, for if they do so they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Again, scripture states the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

So, according to the scripture above, continuing in faith is a requirement for being holy, unblemished and blameless.

I would also add that, the rebukes and their consequences found in the letters to the churches also demonstrate that those churches and individual believers cannot remain that state. These letters are not only to the original seven churches, but to all believers in the entire church period who must overcome, or suffer the consequences listed in the letters.

Blessings!
There is quite a bit of works to maintain Salvation in your post. I find it most distressing, and am concerned for you.

So let's run this down. You know all the Scriptures I'm referencing so I won't at this time list them and instead formulate them into reasoning this out.

You are dead in your sin. You are presented with, and hear THE Gospel unto Salvation. Your faith THAT GOD GAVE YOU is activated and you confess with your mouth AND believe in your heart. You are born again from above at that moment, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and become a born again Child of God.

Jesus tells us He will NEVER leave nor forsake you. That He is the founder and perfecter of your faith. That you are in His Hands AND His father's hands, and NO ONE (including you) can pluck you out of Them. He says that NO CREATED THING (YOU are a created thing) can separate you from Him. He says this gift of faith and Salvation is irrevocable. He says that EVEN if YOU stumble and lose faith and deny Him HE can't deny himself, because HE is in you. There is MUCH more but just this is MORE than enough.

Now you come along and say that it is YOU that has to maintain your Salvation by keeping your faith, by forgiving others, by not living a life of sin etc.... You make Him not only a liar, but an impotent failure! That somehow He will revoke the faith He gave you and you will no longer be His Child, and YOU have separated yourself from His Love, that you have bit His Hand forcing Him to let you jump out, that He is NOT going to perfect your faith. That He IS going to leave and forsake you.

Many of the passages you cite you confuse a DESCRIPTION of what a Christian IS, with a PRESCRIPTION of things that a Christian must do or not do to attain or retain Salvation.

Also, many of the passages are there for us to examine ourselves to see if we are indeed a born again Child of God. For instance, if we don't forgive and hold a grudge, if we are caught up in a sin and aren't even bothered by it, if we don't love people, etc... THEN we better examine ourselves to make our election sure, and that we HAVE been born again.

So I would sincerely ask you, WHO are you trusting in to perfect your faith, and keep you saved? You or Christ?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
There is quite a bit of works to maintain Salvation in your post. I find it most distressing, and am concerned for you.

This sentence conveys a concept of illness.
A sentence shows you have been contaminated......it causes distress......you maybe lost

Except that is impossible. If you are saved you are saved no matter which turning your faith takes.

Unless of course, ones language is really speaking the truth. We are the secure guys, and you demons
out there are challenging us, but we will never give in, except that is not what we believe.
It does not matter if we give in, so no fear, we are secure no matter what.

It is like a child in a house alone repeating to themselves the mantra they are safe and nothing can
get them, while actually knowing this is all a lie.

And this is the core problem. The emotional reality is unbelief, disguised as faith.

Jesus has saved us and we are secure in Him against all the world or the heavenlies throws at us.
And our walking in Jesus embeds this reality deeper each day, as we rejoice in love working out
through our lives. Unless of course we doubt we either know Jesus or walk with Him. Then we are
this child speaking a mantra, and not really people of faith at all.

But if you bow the knee and accept Jesus in your heart you are saved, through repentance and faith
in the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. Knowing this sets us free to walk with Him, and learn
and obey. But if we refuse to do these things, do we actually have any reality?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,681
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There is quite a bit of works to maintain Salvation in your post. I find it most distressing, and am concerned for you.

This sentence conveys a concept of illness.
A sentence shows you have been contaminated......it causes distress......you maybe lost

Except that is impossible. If you are saved you are saved no matter which turning your faith takes.

Unless of course, ones language is really speaking the truth. We are the secure guys, and you demons
out there are challenging us, but we will never give in, except that is not what we believe.
It does not matter if we give in, so no fear, we are secure no matter what.

It is like a child in a house alone repeating to themselves the mantra they are safe and nothing can
get them, while actually knowing this is all a lie.

And this is the core problem. The emotional reality is unbelief, disguised as faith.

Jesus has saved us and we are secure in Him against all the world or the heavenlies throws at us.
And our walking in Jesus embeds this reality deeper each day, as we rejoice in love working out
through our lives. Unless of course we doubt we either know Jesus or walk with Him. Then we are
this child speaking a mantra, and not really people of faith at all.

But if you bow the knee and accept Jesus in your heart you are saved, through repentance and faith
in the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. Knowing this sets us free to walk with Him, and learn
and obey. But if we refuse to do these things, do we actually have any reality?
Its really simple.

Do you trust Christ for your Salvation?

Or do you trust in your own performance to earn or maintain Salvation?


If you think you can lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on your own performance.

If you think you can't lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on the Lord keeping you.


If all this is merely an exercise in intellect and interpretation then you can be persuaded either way.

If you have come to Christ then the Holy Spirit has given you assurance that mere philosophy can't take away.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,149
10,543
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Its really simple.

Do you trust Christ for your Salvation?

Or do you trust in your own performance to earn or maintain Salvation?


If you think you can lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on your own performance.

If you think you can't lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on the Lord keeping you.


If all this is merely an exercise in intellect and interpretation then you can be persuaded either way.

If you have come to Christ then the Holy Spirit has given you assurance that mere philosophy can't take away.
This seems like a simple concept thats easy to understand, yet it is so hard for people to see it.. Why?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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This seems like a simple concept thats easy to understand, yet it is so hard for people to see it.. Why?
I don't know. People tend to complicate things or make them more complicated than they need to be.

It is nice when people actually understand the simplicity that is in Christ.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,149
10,543
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I don't know. People tend to complicate things or make them more complicated than they need to be.

It is nice when people actually understand the simplicity that is in Christ.
Sometimes I wonder if they think it is too simple so it can’t be true.
 

Sipsey

Active member
Sep 27, 2018
469
249
43
I think certain denominations from way back have perpetuated this idea that Jesus is pretty powerful, but He cannot or won’t do it all. They say stuff like - “if you don’t do this and this and this,” or have a “list” of do’s & don’ts to “make sure” or to “maintain” the work that Christ on the cross started, but that must be maintained and continually worked at, in order to earn salvation.

The sad part is they can never be sure if their good works outweigh their sins, and so they think that they must recommit, rebaptise, walk the isle, give more, work harder etc. and hope, but not know that their salvation rest upon the “finished work of Jesus. They don’t understand the “rest” spoken of from Genesis to Revelation.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
18,502
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Hello and thanks for your answer. However, I have MANY, MANY other Verses too. Here is another example.

"These men are hidden reefs [elements of great danger to others] in your love feasts when they feast together with you without fear, looking after [only] themselves; [they are like] clouds without water, swept along by the winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted and lifeless " Jude 12 AMP

If they died twice then it means they already had been born again.
Be sure to read the entire chapter. In verse 4, these men are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. The NAS says "doubly dead." *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS, SO THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.*

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is "twice dead."

Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."

Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
1,788
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Its really simple.

Do you trust Christ for your Salvation?

Or do you trust in your own performance to earn or maintain Salvation?


If you think you can lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on your own performance.

If you think you can't lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on the Lord keeping you.


If all this is merely an exercise in intellect and interpretation then you can be persuaded either way.

If you have come to Christ then the Holy Spirit has given you assurance that mere philosophy can't take away.
yes, no, no, yes, I have that blessed assurance and joy that only God can give. I choose to abide in the vine, not go my own way and do my own thing. Salvation is not a license to do your own thing, Grandpa.
 

Yuccaman

New member
Jul 10, 2019
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North Alabama
He did but he repented in time
David , when in repentance of his sin with Bathsheba said " take not your Spirit from me".

What do you think he meant ?

He still had the Spirit of God , even while he sinned, in order for God to take it from him.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
1,788
1,373
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David , when in repentance of his sin with Bathsheba said " take not your Spirit from me".

What do you think he meant ?

He still had the Spirit of God , even while he sinned, in order for God to take it from him.
God gives us time to repent. It's not a "GOT-CHA!" moment kind of thing.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
Its really simple.

Do you trust Christ for your Salvation?

Or do you trust in your own performance to earn or maintain Salvation?


If you think you can lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on your own performance.

If you think you can't lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on the Lord keeping you.


If all this is merely an exercise in intellect and interpretation then you can be persuaded either way.

If you have come to Christ then the Holy Spirit has given you assurance that mere philosophy can't take away.
There is a problem here. Let me put it simply, I know that Jesus gives me a choice, an agreement with Him.
Innate within this agreement is love and an open door.

Jesus chooses and calls. I do not know the limitations or where it will lead or how, because Jesus is changing
me. So your whole construction is man made, not based on Jesus. The whole point of Jesus and His heart is
He gives us the space and understanding to bow, to lay prostrate before Him and acknowledge He is the Lord.

The problem your expression has for me, is you speak as if you know. And it is this arrogance that is worrying,
and the idea because I know the door is open, is that and nothing more. And this is part of who Jesus is, there
is no forcing or binding, it is all based on who He is and we seeing in the light.

And the venom of people to those acknowledging knowing Jesus and His love. Clearly some do not know
who Jesus really is. God bless you, Praise the Lord for His freedom and His desire to have the door always
open, never forced. But I wonder if many really know how gracious the Lord is as shown by the parable
of the prodigal son.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,349
15,131
113
If our salvation depends on us then we are already lost. Apostates teach that salvation may be obtained like socks at the store and returned when they go out of fashion. This line of thinking is utter foolishness and diminishes the great cost by which the redemption of our souls has been purchased.

To be genuinely saved one must first face that they are utterly lost and doomed to an eternity in the lake of fire. They must first see themselves as wholly unworthy of redemption and justly deserving to be condemned. Only from there can one receive a proper perspective of what Christ has done for us when we did not know Him and had no desire to know Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Amen and then use Paul becoming unusable as a go to verse to teach one can lose it.....oblivious to the truth that Jesus is the source of faith and that if we become FAITHLESS he abides faithful to his promises.....the gifts (including salvation) and call of God are IRREVOCABLE......

Yet they (the salvation losers) equate salvation to something that can be lost like a dime in the street....

Street Organ playing dogma is what they peddle
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,681
1,996
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There is a problem here. Let me put it simply, I know that Jesus gives me a choice, an agreement with Him.
Innate within this agreement is love and an open door.

Jesus chooses and calls. I do not know the limitations or where it will lead or how, because Jesus is changing
me. So your whole construction is man made, not based on Jesus. The whole point of Jesus and His heart is
He gives us the space and understanding to bow, to lay prostrate before Him and acknowledge He is the Lord.

The problem your expression has for me, is you speak as if you know. And it is this arrogance that is worrying,
and the idea because I know the door is open, is that and nothing more. And this is part of who Jesus is, there
is no forcing or binding, it is all based on who He is and we seeing in the light.

And the venom of people to those acknowledging knowing Jesus and His love. Clearly some do not know
who Jesus really is. God bless you, Praise the Lord for His freedom and His desire to have the door always
open, never forced. But I wonder if many really know how gracious the Lord is as shown by the parable
of the prodigal son.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Its not that I think the Lord is forcing me to stay with Him. Its that there isn't anywhere else that is going to be better.

I don't think that knowing something for certain is arrogant. Its just strong faith.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,681
1,996
113
yes, no, no, yes, I have that blessed assurance and joy that only God can give. I choose to abide in the vine, not go my own way and do my own thing. Salvation is not a license to do your own thing, Grandpa.
I'm not sure where you got the idea I said Salvation was a license to do anything.

Do you take offense to the fact that we can't lose our Salvation?

Strange thing to take offense to, imo