Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Jimbone · Nov 6, 2019

LW97 said:

This is where I had the biggest contention too, but I do not believe this is possible. This is why John said "They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us", and while I understand how you see these certain verses, for me Heb 6 was the slam dunk. BAM!!! See you can lose salvation, let's read.
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

I mean it says right there "who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away".

I mean how much more clear can He say it?...But upon a closer look, and taking everything in together I personally think this verse isn't referring to someone who was truly born again, is does not say they WERE saved only that they had "tasted" these things. There are a TON of verses that say He will NOT lose ANY the Father has given Him, in fact NO ONE can snatch them out of His hand. I'm one of those, and I believe Him that He will keep me until the end.

We had this discussion at church on Sunday in bible study, and John 10 has a verse that is as much a "slam dunk" for eternal security as Heb 6 was for losing salvation.

John 10:25-30 is Jesus speaking to Pharisee's that were questioning Him. He says,

"The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

I know a angle on this is that people snatching them out of His hand is not the same as choosing to leave, but I believe the "No One" includes "you". Plus if it's a Christian saying this they always preference it with "I don't see how you could chose to leave, I'd never leave, but I believe we can choose to". I've heard it so many times, but I also shared this view before as well and have said the very same thing. It logically follows. How can I be free to choose Jesus, but then be enslaved to Him unable to turn from Him, hypothetically because I don't see how I could ever do that... Right?

I know my dang response is already WAY too long, but my point here is only we have to take scripture together as a whole, and even though some people profess with their mouths, and were with us from the start, tasted the very Spirit of God and went out from us, they were NEVER of us, many will say Lord, Lord, and He will say He NEVER knew them. I don't believe that the the places the bible tells us about the seeming loss of salvation is always speaking of the unsaved. I believe taken as a whole the bible tells us clearly that once we are His we are His forever and He will keep us until that last day. Anyway I love these conversations and look forward to reading what you think about this.

Jimbone · Nov 6, 2019

Jimbone said:

I messed this up, I DO believe, "that the the places the bible tells us about the seeming loss of salvation is always speaking of the unsaved." I do believe in all the cases of the seeming loss of salvation in the bible, that they were never saved. I worded that COMPLETELY wrong.

like opposite.

IFOLLOWHIM · Nov 6, 2019

Nat2019 said:

CONDITIONAL VERSES REGARDING SALVATION

1Cor 15:2 By this gospel you are saved,if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Col 1:22,23 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Heb 3:6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

Heb 3:14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

2Tim 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him.

1Tim 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

1John 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

1John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

1John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

Re 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Absolutely Amen!

How folks can believe OSAS, CALVINISM,OR ANY " OTHER " MAN MADE DOCTRINE astounds me!

We have GODS WORD,JESUS, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT!
Why walk in blindness ?
Or ignorance?
Study with an open heart for your own walk after salvation comes to you!

4017 · Nov 6, 2019

There have been many stories going around on the Christian Post in other formerly Christian new services about certain worship leaders suddenly becoming atheists then they give a long dissertation about why and how they did it. Basically what it is is a call to abandon your faith. There are many scriptures that's a we cannot lose our salvation. The ones that walk away from the Lord we're never actually His. They may have tasted of the spirit but they were never actually sealed with the Spirit Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30. a famous Christian once said if you could lose your salvation you would, tomorrow. If salvation we're up to us we'd be in hot water because in a novel Our own strength how in the world could we keep something due to our fallen nature. It is the Lord Himself who keeps us. now in the scheme of things we're going to go to church and will be with Christians for years and we may see the odd one leave and say I am no longer a Christian and Jesus said he that endures to the end the same shall be saved. So truly the perseverance of the saints is evidence that they were truly born again. Only in the very end when we all stand before the Lord though will we know for certain. 1 Peter 1:3-5 says it very well.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 6, 2019

4017 said:

Amen!

wokinluv · Nov 6, 2019

It is always refreshing and important for me to go back and read these verses to remind me of how to view salvation...whether we remain in Him or walk away from Him is still our choice and the consequences we will receive still depends on God who is the Lord Almighty and the one Lawgiver and Judge who is able to save and to destroy.

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”Matthew 13:10-23

Noose · Nov 6, 2019

mailmandan said:

Lightskin said:

And i have realized that grace teachers are usually the #1 law keepers themselves. No one beats them in law keeping.

For example: Did you know being faithful to your husband or wife is the works of the law?

Rom 7:1Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 6, 2019

Noose said:

When we leave off verse 4, we can easily come to incorrect conclusions... Verse 4 goes on to say,

"4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God."

This speaks rather of "the law of the Spirit OF LIFE" (IN Christ Jesus!), Rom 8:2.

["THAT the RIGHTEOUSNESS *OF* the law [not the Law itself] might be fulfilled IN us [not *BY* us], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4]

Noose · Nov 6, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Does vs 4 mean we now need to be promiscuous?
Because vs 2 says it is by law that we remain faithful to our spouse. Anyone that is faithful to their spouse has diligently kept the law and is precisely doing the works of the law. A law that is targeting the flesh as long as we are alive.

The reason i said, grace teachers are #1 law keepers and no one beats them in law keeping.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 7, 2019

Noose said:

Perhaps this excerpt from Wm Kelly's Commentary [source: BibleHub] can clarify to your mind a bit better than I can at this late hour of the evening:

[quoting]

"[after he quotes vv.1-2] Thus death is the grand principle, as with sin, so with law. It is indeed a confessed and universal axiom. It was fitting to take up the woman rather than the man, because he is treating of our responsibility to do the will of the Lord; and it is emphatically the woman's place to obey her husband. But this, as he demonstrates, is quite independent of the law, which simply deals with man alive in the flesh. Now his thesis in the preceding chapter was the death of the Christian with Christ, which is no less true and forcible when applied to the law as to sin. During the husband's life the wife is bound; if he have died, she is quit. Death severs the bond. "Therefore then, while the husband liveth, she shall be called an adulteress, if she belong to another man. But if the husband die, she is free from the law so as not to be an adulteress by belonging to another man." (Ver. 3.) It is difficult to conceive a blow more destructive to the common notion of putting the Christian under the law as his rule of life. Two husbands are intolerable. Not only is the law not the actual husband, but the apostle will not hear of Christ and the law. It must be Christ alone. To admit of any other association is to be false to Him. If the law had been the old husband, such is no longer the relationship of the Christian. Death having come in, the former obligation terminates, and there is freedom to belong to another without fear of adultery, even to Christ exclusively. Compare for our practice Php 3:13-14.

" "So that, my brethren, ye also have been put to death to the law by the body of Christ that ye should belong to another - him that was raised out of [the] dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." (Ver. 5.) Far from its being the aim of God to maintain the rule of the law, the express design and effect of grace is to bring the Christian (even if a Jew formerly) out of the old relationship into an absolutely new one founded on the death of Christ, that he should henceforth belong exclusively to Him risen from among the dead, and this in order to glorify God by fruits acceptable to Him.

"It will be observed, however, that the apostle carefully abstains from the least insinuation that the law is dead. Not so does God deliver. The law lives to curse and kill all within its sphere. But we by death with Christ pass out of its power to touch us; and having a new husband, even Christ risen, we dare not allow any other spiritual rule: else we are guilty of what is most grievous in His eyes and an utter breach of our new relationship. And this alone secures fruitfulness Godward. Subjection to Christ fulfils the law without thinking of any one or thing but Him. You cannot serve, you ought not to serve, two masters."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Romans 7 [source: BibleHub]

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

"that the RIGHTEOUSNESS *OF* the law might be fulfilled IN us [not *BY* us], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4

Noose · Nov 7, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Perhaps this excerpt from Wm Kelly's Commentary [source: BibleHub] can clarify to your mind a bit better than I can at this late hour of the evening:

[quoting]

"[after he quotes vv.1-2] Thus death is the grand principle, as with sin, so with law. It is indeed a confessed and universal axiom. It was fitting to take up the woman rather than the man, because he is treating of our responsibility to do the will of the Lord; and it is emphatically the woman's place to obey her husband. But this, as he demonstrates, is quite independent of the law, which simply deals with man alive in the flesh. Now his thesis in the preceding chapter was the death of the Christian with Christ, which is no less true and forcible when applied to the law as to sin. During the husband's life the wife is bound; if he have died, she is quit. Death severs the bond. "Therefore then, while the husband liveth, she shall be called an adulteress, if she belong to another man. But if the husband die, she is free from the law so as not to be an adulteress by belonging to another man." (Ver. 3.) It is difficult to conceive a blow more destructive to the common notion of putting the Christian under the law as his rule of life. Two husbands are intolerable. Not only is the law not the actual husband, but the apostle will not hear of Christ and the law. It must be Christ alone. To admit of any other association is to be false to Him. If the law had been the old husband, such is no longer the relationship of the Christian. Death having come in, the former obligation terminates, and there is freedom to belong to another without fear of adultery, even to Christ exclusively. Compare for our practice Php 3:13-14.

" "So that, my brethren, ye also have been put to death to the law by the body of Christ that ye should belong to another - him that was raised out of [the] dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." (Ver. 5.) Far from its being the aim of God to maintain the rule of the law, the express design and effect of grace is to bring the Christian (even if a Jew formerly) out of the old relationship into an absolutely new one founded on the death of Christ, that he should henceforth belong exclusively to Him risen from among the dead, and this in order to glorify God by fruits acceptable to Him.

"It will be observed, however, that the apostle carefully abstains from the least insinuation that the law is dead. Not so does God deliver. The law lives to curse and kill all within its sphere. But we by death with Christ pass out of its power to touch us; and having a new husband, even Christ risen, we dare not allow any other spiritual rule: else we are guilty of what is most grievous in His eyes and an utter breach of our new relationship. And this alone secures fruitfulness Godward. Subjection to Christ fulfils the law without thinking of any one or thing but Him. You cannot serve, you ought not to serve, two masters."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Romans 7 [source: BibleHub]

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

"that the RIGHTEOUSNESS *OF* the law might be fulfilled IN us [not *BY* us], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4

You are talking about Christ, i'm talking about you and you spouse.
Whatever you have written here doesn't cancel the fact that " by law, a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive".

Whether you belong to Christ or not, being faithful to your spouse is keeping the law.

UnderGrace · Nov 7, 2019

IFOLLOWHIM said:

What is astounding is how people always think "saved" in scripture always refers to "spiritual salvation" which it does not.

Noose · Nov 7, 2019

UnderGrace said:

And works doesn't always mean works of the law.
Apparently, there's law that requires works and there's law that requires faith.

PennEd · Nov 7, 2019

UnderGrace said:

What do you think "saved" means?

UnderGrace · Nov 7, 2019

Noose said:

Yes, but that has not bearing on the assurance of salvation, OSAS.

UnderGrace · Nov 7, 2019

PennEd said:

Context is important... it can mean "bodily salvation" and sometimes the soul (mind, will emotions.
In Mediterranean languages people use saved in many different ways.

PennEd · Nov 7, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Can you give me a Scriptural example where saved doesn't mean born again, saved from eternal destruction?

Noose · Nov 7, 2019

UnderGrace said:

It does actually.

1. Whatever works Jesus did were not His own but of the one who sent Him. It is by those works that He was perfected/saved because He obeyed.

2. Whatever works saints do today are not their own but the works of the one who sent them (Jesus).

"..whatever you did to one of these little ones (in need) you did it for me.."
Jesus

And these works are what are referred to as faith.

UnderGrace · Nov 7, 2019

PennEd said:

Here is one with regards to bodily salvation.

He who endures to the end shall be saved
Matthew 24:13

PennEd · Nov 7, 2019

UnderGrace said:

You think that means the person's earthly, flesh body will be saved?

Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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