Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

Hebrews 5:7 - who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear.

The writer of Hebrews who was obviously aware of the reality of Jesus' death speaks of His resurrection (Hebrews 13:20) which is being saved from death. Jesus was never in danger of facing spiritual death by being cast into hell.

Of course He was never in danger, He was assured victory and was made victorious, but you haven't answered my question.

There's two kinds of death, 1. The physical one/ first death (death of the flesh) and 2. The spiritual one/ second death
Between 1 and 2, which one was Jesus being saved from and which one did He taste on our behalf?

Heb 2:9But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

 

[mailmandan]

Of course He was never in danger, He was assured victory and was made victorious, but you haven't answered my question.

There's two kinds of death, 1. The physical one/ first death (death of the flesh) and 2. The spiritual one/ second death
Between 1 and 2, which one was Jesus being saved from and which one did He taste on our behalf?

Heb 2:9But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

It's not just about the death of the flesh. Acts 13:37 - But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay. His body did not decay and Jesus overcame death through His resurrection. Jesus tasted death for everyone. He physically died, but rose from the dead in three days. Jesus did not taste spiritual death in hell.

 

[Noose]

You continue to miss the point that at WHAT POINT do we become slaves of obedience unto righteousness? After we accomplish multiple acts of obedience as an unbeliever or a believer or after we believe unto righteousness/believe on Him/faith is accounted for righteousness?

At the point when we stop being slaves to sin- when we start obeying.

Rom 6:17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.

It is not doing a few acts of obedience upto the fourth and fifth and sixth, it is when we obey. And also, when we disobey (fail to hold on) we fall back.

 

[Noose]

It's not just about the death of the flesh. Acts 13:37 - But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay. His body did not decay and Jesus overcame death through His resurrection. Jesus tasted death for everyone. He physically died, but rose from the dead in three days. Jesus did not taste spiritual death in hell.

So, Jesus only tasted the physical death? and was only saved from physical death so that His body could not decay?

 

[mailmandan]

At the point when we stop being slaves to sin- when we start obeying.

Rom 6:17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

*Once again: Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

It is not doing a few acts of obedience upto the fourth and fifth and sixth, it is when we obey.

So what is it? List the specific act(s) of obedience that must be accomplished before it's established that we have become slaves of righteousness.

And also, when we disobey (fail to hold on) we fall back.

Failing to hold on demonstrates a flaw in the belief from the start. A "vain" - without cause or without effect, to no purpose, kind of belief. Falls short of consummated belief which would have resulted in salvation.

 

[Noose]

Yup. Doesn't change anything I said.

The opening passage in this chapter is absolutely essential. It lays out in crystal clear terms what EXACTLY THE Gospel unto Salvation is.

It in NO WAY proves ANYTHING about the possibility of someone who is a born again Child of the One true King, being disowned by that King, losing their sonship, and gathered and tossed into everlasting fire. In fact NO passage does that.

The same Author that said if Christ didn't rise you have believed in vain, said he was convinced NOTHING, and he went out his way to define NOTHING, could separate you from the love He has toward you:
Romans 8:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nope. Vs 1 & 2, Paul reminds them of the gospel that he had preached and they already believed, warning them warning them to hold on otherwise their belief will be in vain.

Paul's persuasion propelled him to give then countless warnings, to urge them to hold on so that their belief should not be in vain.

 

[mailmandan]

So, Jesus only tasted the physical death? and was only saved from physical death so that His body could not decay?

Jesus tasted physical death (not spiritual death in hell) and His victory over death came through His resurrection.

 

[mailmandan]

Nope. Vs 1 & 2, Paul reminds them of the gospel that he had preached and they already believed, warning them warning them to hold on otherwise their belief will be in vain.

Paul's persuasion propelled him to give then countless warnings, to urge them to hold on so that their belief should not be in vain.

Nope. This warning from Paul is not for genuine believers to hold on or else lose their salvation. It's about professing believers mixed in with the group who fail to hold on, demonstrating they believed in vain - never truly believed in the first place. Genuine belief is not in vain. Shallow, temporary belief that has no root and fails to hold on is in vain. Notice the "unless" you believed in vain.

Paul speaks this way because he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue.

Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

 

[Noose]

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

I agree. Not only obedience and believing are synonyms, also faith in Christ but the good thing is, all thses simply means LOVE for others which is a work and not just a mental picture.

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Works of the law- no
But faith is a work. Works of love and not mental pictures.

So what is it? List the specific act(s) of obedience that must be accomplished before it's established that we have become slaves of righteousness.

Love for one another, the one who hates is a murderer.

Failing to hold on demonstrates a flaw in the belief from the start. A "vain" - without cause or without effect, to no purpose, kind of belief. Falls short of consummated belief which would have resulted in salvation.

There's no flaw from the start, you either believe or not or believe and later fall from the belief.

 

[Noose]

Nope. This warning from Paul is not for genuine believers to hold on or else lose their salvation. It's about professing believers mixed in with the group who fail to hold on, demonstrating they believed in vain - never truly believed in the first place. Genuine belief is not in vain. Shallow, temporary belief that has no root and fails to hold on is in vain. Notice the "unless" you believed in vain.

Paul speaks this way because he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue.

Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

Nope. Paul was writing to believers:

1 Cor 1:1Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, 2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

 

[mailmandan]

I agree. Not only obedience and believing are synonyms, also faith in Christ but the good thing is, all thses simply means LOVE for others which is a work and not just a mental picture.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves, not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works/acts of love/charity which "follow."

Works of the law- no
But faith is a work. Works of love and not mental pictures.

You cannot dissect works of love from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) and faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.

Love for one another, the one who hates is a murderer.

The one who hates is a murderer is descriptive of children of the devil and not children of God. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

There's no flaw from the start, you either believe or not or believe and later fall from the belief.

There certainly is a flaw from the start, as in the example of the 3rd and 4th soils in the parable of the soils. People may actually start out believing in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later find out that politician does not line up with their original expectations. It's the same with Jesus.

If you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. *So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18).

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, then as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him. Not belief is firmly rooted and established from the start. Don't be so naive.

 

[John146]

Nope. Vs 1 & 2, Paul reminds them of the gospel that he had preached and they already believed, warning them warning them to hold on otherwise their belief will be in vain.

Paul's persuasion propelled him to give then countless warnings, to urge them to hold on so that their belief should not be in vain.

You’re trying to equate the phrase, in vain, to mean not saved anymore? Paul’s simply reminding them of the resurrection because if there is no resurrection, then our belief is in vain, meaning there’s no profit believing the message. If Christ didn’t resurrect then neither will we.

Later, he tells them:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

They haven’t lost their salvation, rather, some have wondered from the truth of the resurrection.

 

[PennEd]

Nope. Vs 1 & 2, Paul reminds them of the gospel that he had preached and they already believed, warning them warning them to hold on otherwise their belief will be in vain.

Paul's persuasion propelled him to give then countless warnings, to urge them to hold on so that their belief should not be in vain.

Nope. Already addressed in previous post.

You want to earn your salvation. I get that. It's a natural, normal thought. The trouble is, you step dangerously close to trampling on Christ's Blood and insulting the Spirit of Grace.

HE said He would NEVER leave nor forsake us.

HE is the Author and finisher of our faith.

HE said no one can pluck us out of His Hand.

The Word says NOTHING can separate you from His Love.

The list goes on and on.


Are you SURE you believe and trust in Him?

 

[mailmandan]

Nope. Paul was writing to believers:

1 Cor 1:1Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, 2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

Of course Paul's letters are addressed to believers, but that does not mean that EVERYONE in this group of professing believers is a genuine believer. ALL the letters in the NT are written to believers, yet the Bible talks about wheat and tares (Mathew 13:24-30) false brethren (2 Corinthians 11:16; Galatians 2:4) false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15; Acts 20:28-31).

If you attended a church on Sunday morning (particularly a very large church) and the Pastor greeted the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" that morning, does that mean EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday morning MUST be a genuine believer? Of course not. Don't be so naive.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you SURE you believe and trust in Him?

That is the $64,000 question. I hear a lot of talk about works salvation and insecurity in his posts.

 

[Lightskin]

We have 2 laws, aren't you aware?

Rom 7:21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.

Either way, it is obedience to or disobedience to the law that saves or condemns.

I don’t care if we have an infinite amount of laws, we have one Lord and Savior who’s divine fullness brings salvation to everyone who believes in Him.

You have consistently shown yourself to be extremely inconsistent and neurotic to say the least. Congratulations, you’re officially the one and only person I now have on ignore.

 

[TMS]

Choice and freewill is given to all or our love is not worth anything. If i can't choose to reject salvation and I'm saved against my will than heaven would be forced. The devil attacts the saved more than the lost. Why would the the devil bother if the saved can't end up lost.

 

[garee]

You cannot dissect works of love from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) and faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.

I would offer you cannot dissect the works of His labor of love from the law of faith as a work of Christ's faith that works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure .

We have that power in these earthen bodies of death. But His gospel power is not of us.

Remember he performs that which is appointed to us. . making our hearts soft. .This is as he does work in us to both will and perform His good pleasure (no murmuring just believe) .

If we deny him in unbelief(no faith) he will deny us. But he cannot deny the fact that if he has begun the good work in us he finish that work to the very end. He cannot deny his own self . He is our confidence .Not of our own self.

 

[garee]

Choice and freewill is given to all or our love is not worth anything. If i can't choose to reject salvation and I'm saved against my will than heaven would be forced. The devil attacts the saved more than the lost. Why would the the devil bother if the saved can't end up lost.

If I can't choose to reject salvation then I'm saved according to the will of him who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul alone pleases. He knows what we need before we ask. Therefore he softens our newly created heart by a work of his faith in us in order to finish the work he faithfully has begun in us.

Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

 

[Lightskin]

Choice and freewill is given to all or our love is not worth anything. If i can't choose to reject salvation and I'm saved against my will than heaven would be forced. The devil attacts the saved more than the lost. Why would the the devil bother if the saved can't end up lost.

The enemy has no power over anyone with the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.