Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,498
522
113
Everything stated here is God's side of the covenant....not our side of it.
Romans 1:31 states that covenantbreakers will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.
NO covenant with God is a one-sided event.
The new covenant is a unilateral agreement made solely by God. No action on the part of the recipient is necessary or even possible. This is what makes it by grace.

[Heb 8:10-13 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,188
393
83
You are adding to His word to make it say and mean what you want it to. You can drag out the Greek and write 10 walls of text, but YOU have to add the "other than ourselves".

So bottom line here is that you are trying to add to the word of God. I don't accept that.
Both senses are inherent in the text and context. The literal text is ambiguous. You need to add the words "including ourselves" to exclude the second reasonable understanding I presented of the text. I did not exclude your meaning by adding words. I simply showed that without adding words, two meanongs ars possible. You are afraid to admit the possibiiity of two meanings becausd you have so few prooftexts that come anywhere near certifying your truth claims, that you can't afford to lose any.
 
Jul 3, 2015
58,155
27,578
113
Amen...Not even ourselves ...
Good day dear sweet Rosemary. Yes, all of God, none of us. We surrender and abide by His power.

The telling of the rich young ruler says it all. Jesus makes plain that left up to man, salvation is impossible.

But...


Matthew 19:26b
I am currently casting about for a verse or two for the panel I am presently working on...

Any suggestions? .:)
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,449
589
113
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [d]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

WHO would dare say that EVERY person that wasn't saved to begin with was an antichrist? And, btw, WHO dares to judge that every christian who apostatized was never saved to begin with?

This scripture's context speaks only of antichrists.

All we have here is another one verse - doctrine for the saved forever group's excuse for backsliders...& btw, their ONLY ONE.
 
Jul 3, 2015
58,155
27,578
113
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [d]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

WHO would dare say that EVERY person that wasn't saved to begin with was an antichrist? And, btw, WHO dares to judge that every christian who apostatized was never saved to begin with?

This scripture's context speaks only of antichrists.
All we have here is another one verse - doctrine for the saved forever group's excuse for backsliders...& btw, their ONLY ONE.
John is the only one to mention antiChrist/s. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that
Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
 
Sep 2, 2020
13,579
5,453
113
Maybe YOU can lose your salvation. John says if you leave it you never had it anyway, but that aside. I have been assured that I can't lose mine, by His word and AWESOME power and plan. I'd never serve the weak God you believe in. ANYONE that KNOWS the true power of God could never insult Him by arguing how weak and unable it is to save. No one. You are saying that we can have our eyes open to truth, to KNOW God is real and Jesus IS His Son, that we can be spiritual resurrected and reconciled to God in truth, and then turn from the truth, or be snatched out of His hand. I couldn't disagree more and I personally see this as an insult to His power, on the same level to me, as spitting in His face. I'm not trying to just jab at you, but what you're saying I see this way whole heartedly.

I do not understand how you can say God saved you and completely transformed you, that you've been saved, truly born-again, to KNOW firsthand the power of God, yet argue that you could turn from it. I don't believe that's possible, obviously you do, because you are so trying to sell the weakness and inability of God so hard. Why? I don't understand why you want to teach that being born-again is just a probation that starts your works based salvation, something that has been totally condemned from the very start of the way.
The proof text you keep pointing to are not clear enough in the face of all the text that directly contradicts them, to make them mean what you say they mean. You have to harmonize ALL His word when dealing with these issues, and I believe that is sorely missing from your interpretations of what these text mean.
“. I have been assured that I can't lose mine, by His word and AWESOME power and plan. I'd never serve the weak God you believe in. “

you think this God on who I believe is weak because he told us the truth ?

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Youve never heard about this and somehow it makes God weak ?

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: ( this makes God weak ? How so ? )


to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is a weak God that’s telling people ahead of time they need to repent so they don’t perish ? it seems like either the Bible is all wrong about God and salvation or the people insisting it isn’t true are wrong about salvstion


“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

this makes God weak lol ? I’ve never heard that reaction to hearing about repentance and obedience before that gods weak lol new one for sure

This is a Bible discussion forum isn’t it ?How do scriptures have no impact ? Bit I humbly disagree the scriptire doesn’t make God look weak , when we reject his word it makes us fools
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,188
393
83
You obviously don't understand the covenant we are in. I explained in post #4097. Under what stipulation of the new covenant can God separate from us?
Exegete the text I cited in response to your challenge. Don't divert to some other texts. Does the Greek say " if a man were not to keep on abiding abide in me, he would be cast forth as a branch"? Or "If a man does not keep on abiding in me, he is cast forth as a branch"? Or something else?
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,449
589
113
The new covenant is a unilateral agreement made solely by God. No action on the part of the recipient is necessary or even possible. This is what makes it by grace.
So no action necessary or even possible you say? So repentance is no longer a requiremwent? What about accepting Christ? What about obedience? Whatever happened to commitment? God has a relationship with us but none required from us to Him?
We are not called servants of God for nothing.
Grace is for when we mess up, which is all the time.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,498
522
113
So no action necessary or even possible you say? So repentance is no longer a requiremwent? What about accepting Christ? What about obedience? Whatever happened to commitment? God has a relationship with us but none required from us to Him?
We are not called servants of God for nothing.
Grace is for when we mess up, which is all the time.
No, none of those actions save anyone; rather, they are manifestations of having been saved. That is why Jesus Christ has
the title of Savior and man does not. It is by the grace of God, not the works of man.
We are called to be servants, but only the saved can truly fulfill this role.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,449
589
113
Grace is unto salvation.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
It amazes me how so many blindly overlook the simple phrase "through faith"
Did you forget the famous phrase of Martin Luther "the just shall live by faith"?
I advise you to look up what 'through faith' means.
 
Feb 8, 2021
631
131
43
Paul gave to us the Gospel of Grace that is active since his time on this earth until the rapture of the body of Christ, which will THEN end the dispensation of grace, because those who find themselves under the Kingdom Gospel in the tribulation period will have to ENDURE unto the end in order to be saved since they will NOT be sealed by Holy Spirit. The latter has no application to us today before the tribulation.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Those who ADD to Paul's Gospel those things that belong strictly to the Kingdom Gospel, they are adding what is not meant for us who are under God's grace.

MM
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,498
522
113
It amazes me how so many blindly overlook the simple phrase "through faith"
Did you forget the famous phrase of Martin Luther "the just shall live by faith"?
I advise you to look up what 'through faith' means.
I didn't overlook it, and I understand its significance. The gift referred to in that verse cannot be based upon our faith in any sense; rather, it must be Christ's faith. It was His faith that brought forth salvation, not our own. It is by the faith of Christ.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,498
522
113
Did you forget the famous phrase of Martin Luther "the just shall live by faith"?
Maybe I'm missing your point, but that phrase was made by God through Paul. The faith is Christ's faith.

[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[Gal 3:11 KJV] 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[Heb 10:38 KJV] 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
17,310
5,982
113
62
Exegete the text I cited in response to your challenge. Don't divert to some other texts. Does the Greek say " if a man were not to keep on abiding abide in me, he would be cast forth as a branch"? Or "If a man does not keep on abiding in me, he is cast forth as a branch"? Or something else?
So are you admitting that there is no provision under the new covenant to be separated from God?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,579
5,453
113
2:19 When the false teachers went out from among the believers, they revealed that they did not belong to the Christian community; they were never true believers.they … us: In the opening verses of this book, John made a distinction between weand you (1:1, 3). We, the apostles, were the eyewitnesses of Christ, you were the readers. That same distinction is probably maintained here (see also v. 20). Thus when John says these false teachers were not of us, he means they did not agree with the teaching of the apostles. These antichrists had departed from the apostolic churches, and their attitudes and actions were not of the apostolic persuasion. If they had been in harmony with the apostles, they would have remained in fellowship with them (1:1–3).

NKJV study notes.
Amen big brother

“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

We ( the apostles and fellow witnesses prophets and teachers in the first church who weren’t parting from the doctrine ) are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:1-3, 6‬ ‭
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
17,310
5,982
113
62
Do you think that has anything to do with this brother ?

“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.””
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭NIV‬‬

then to the disciples John says

Do not love the world or anything in the world. ( instruction don’t do this )

If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;

but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:15-20‬ ‭

Brother John is saying the same things Jesus said if you don’t remain in his doctrine it’s revealing that you don’t belong to him. Same thing I e been quoting same thing with “ if we willfully keep sinning there’s no sacrifice for sins left just judgement ect they also by thier actions parting from him reveal who they are and who they belong to .



When Christian’s go out and start preaching alternate gospels that reject the lord and his way of salvation it’s showing them to be a fraud. Those scriptures don’t say anything about salvstion having it or losing it . It’s disciples who turn away showing thier allegiance to the world.



“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:1, 4‬ ‭

Johns again talking about the Holy Ghost being in us from Christs doctrine same thing Jesus told us would happen if we believe him

The one who is in you he gets in you from the gospel when we believe

““If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. ( the annointing in us )

The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 23-24‬ ‭NIV‬‬

John is speaking from his gospel to people who believed it and followed


.Brother sometimes people believe in Jesus and then they realize when they hear his doctrine it’s going to change things for them they see Jesus calling for things like love of money list greed ect and at that point they stop they turn back and never bear fruit

This is actually what’s going on since the gospel is being preached

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not consider it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. ( not god causing it )

This is the seed sown along the path. The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. ( not god causing it )

When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:19-22‬ ‭NIV‬‬

it’s the word of the gospel and our response to it god isn’t causing anyone to be damned or forcing anyone to be saved he’s given the choice to us all

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

that’s true for every living soul it’s not saying “ God has already determined what your going to do good and bad and then he’s going to blame you and punish you for what he caused

It’s saying clearly to everyone willing to listen and believe “ one day you are going to have to stand before Jesus and receive e writhing that you have done in his sight good or bad “

thats the entire reason for the gospel gods trying to save us from the coming judgement because we’ve all sinned believers non believers everyone is in the same group and needs to accept the gospel it’s the only thing on earth that can save anyone on earth

But I don’t know brother I don’t think it’s saying “ either your saved or you aren’t there’s nothing you can do about it “

i think the opposite it’s saying no matter who you are if you believe the gospel you shall be saved !
Yes
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
17,310
5,982
113
62
Everything stated here is God's side of the covenant....not our side of it.
Romans 1:31 states that covenantbreakers will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.
NO covenant with God is a one-sided event.
Agree. The covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. It has been fulfilled. Please show me the stipulation in the new covenant that allows for God to separate from those under the covenant.
The old covenant had such stipulations. And God in 70AD executed the sanctions on Israel because they failed to uphold the terms of the covenant. That covenant no longer exists.
So...under the terms of the new covenant, what stipulations have not been met that will allow God to separate from those under the covenant?