Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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@Musicmaster
In thinking about our discussion of yesterday, I realized that I neglected to mention a vital aspect of 1 Corinthians 2:13 - that it is the Holy Spirit within us who compares "spiritual things with spiritual" in order to teach us. Without Him, we lack this ability. We only receive the Holy Spirit from/by being saved and born-again.
[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
In thinking about our discussion of yesterday, I realized that I neglected to mention a vital aspect of 1 Corinthians 2:13 - that it is the Holy Spirit within us who compares "spiritual things with spiritual" in order to teach us. Without Him, we lack this ability. We only receive the Holy Spirit from/by being saved and born-again.
[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
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Honestly I've lost the point you're making. Are you saying, concerning your salvation, that you do have a reason to boast in yourself? Are you claiming you deserve glory for obeying good enough? Because from where I'm sitting it, sure sounds like that's what you're arguing for. To me you seemed more concerned for the glory men deserve for "their part" in salvation, (I say no part, that we play no part in the gift of salvation) than you are concerned for glorify the Savior for His part, "THE PART". Don't take this wrong I'm not trying to say you don't love God or are not saved, none of that kind of thing that is between you and Him, but your arguments all seem to lift up us men/women while degrading and demoting Gods "PART" in it all. After reading your "quote" at the bottom of your comment I see what fuels your thoughts on this matter.
You're so anti-Calvin that if anyone says anything you think even resembles any "Calvin like teaching" you retreat to the complete other side of the spectrum and do not listen, do not ask a question, you dig into what you've characterized "Calvinism" to be in your head and you apply all those beliefs that you hate into what we believe, then you only attack the vision you made in your head and do not listen to anything that the person says to you. You dig in and attack a strawman never even listening to what that person actually believes and why they believe it. You can't even hear that person say they are not a Calvinist, they do not believe what you say they do, and you have rehearsed answers for everything all the time, only they are answers to the image you've created in your own mind and not to the actual beliefs of the person you decide to throw that label on.
Not to be mean but take this conversation for example. I have had a very hard time understanding exactly what you're actually arguing for here. Doesn't seem very clear to be straight up, but I have to conclude that if I'm making the assertion that we get NO credit for salvation, deserve NO glory for it at all and have NO reason to boast. I have to assume you are arguing that we DO deserve, at least a little credit for salvation, that we DO deserve some glory for it, and that we DO have something to boast about in ourselves. To be honest when you step back and look at it that seems kind of like Satanic doctrine, wouldn't you say? Kind of self centered isn't it? It does to me.
I did want to define clearly what we were debating here. Does this about sum it up accurately? I'm arguing God rightly deserves ALL credit, glory, just everything concerning salvation, every salvation, and you argue that we deserve at least a little bit of that glory for ourselves.
You're so anti-Calvin that if anyone says anything you think even resembles any "Calvin like teaching" you retreat to the complete other side of the spectrum and do not listen, do not ask a question, you dig into what you've characterized "Calvinism" to be in your head and you apply all those beliefs that you hate into what we believe, then you only attack the vision you made in your head and do not listen to anything that the person says to you. You dig in and attack a strawman never even listening to what that person actually believes and why they believe it. You can't even hear that person say they are not a Calvinist, they do not believe what you say they do, and you have rehearsed answers for everything all the time, only they are answers to the image you've created in your own mind and not to the actual beliefs of the person you decide to throw that label on.
Not to be mean but take this conversation for example. I have had a very hard time understanding exactly what you're actually arguing for here. Doesn't seem very clear to be straight up, but I have to conclude that if I'm making the assertion that we get NO credit for salvation, deserve NO glory for it at all and have NO reason to boast. I have to assume you are arguing that we DO deserve, at least a little credit for salvation, that we DO deserve some glory for it, and that we DO have something to boast about in ourselves. To be honest when you step back and look at it that seems kind of like Satanic doctrine, wouldn't you say? Kind of self centered isn't it? It does to me.
I did want to define clearly what we were debating here. Does this about sum it up accurately? I'm arguing God rightly deserves ALL credit, glory, just everything concerning salvation, every salvation, and you argue that we deserve at least a little bit of that glory for ourselves.
Well said. Yes.
However, the Gospel message is not cryptic. It has to be plain and open for all to understand, otherwise nobody would be able to get to the point of grace and salvation through faith.
Additionally, spiritualizing the verses I quoted from John, who clearly and succinctly stated that "they" who believe can be bitten by serpents and drink poisonous drink and lay hands on the sick (infirmed) and they will be healed, all without the use of "spiritual" language. John spoke plainly to the Israelites to whom he was preaching. H had no reason to mask it in "spiritual" language that the people would not have understood.
So, the tactic applied to try and spiritualize the miraculous healings, along with surviving poisons and venoms, that the believers were able to do under that dispensation, and that are not worked today by believers on account of us being under a different dispensation, it is not the same.
1 John 2:27 is a great revelation whereby we need not have to rely on false teachers behind pulpits, on TV, in books and magazines, radio, the internet...et al. The Lord is the final authority in whom we can always trust. If you say the Lord is revealing one thing to you, and another says the same Lord revealed what is contrary to your beliefs, then one or both of you are NOT hearing anything from the Lord, and are only fooling yourselves. It really is just that simple. Many people out there are simply unteachable because of their pride, which should drive us ALL into prayer and fasting while seeking the Lord's working within us to drive out that pride in some cruddy pastor who teaches falsehoods as a routine that so many choose to sit under and follow.
MM
However, the Gospel message is not cryptic. It has to be plain and open for all to understand, otherwise nobody would be able to get to the point of grace and salvation through faith.
Additionally, spiritualizing the verses I quoted from John, who clearly and succinctly stated that "they" who believe can be bitten by serpents and drink poisonous drink and lay hands on the sick (infirmed) and they will be healed, all without the use of "spiritual" language. John spoke plainly to the Israelites to whom he was preaching. H had no reason to mask it in "spiritual" language that the people would not have understood.
So, the tactic applied to try and spiritualize the miraculous healings, along with surviving poisons and venoms, that the believers were able to do under that dispensation, and that are not worked today by believers on account of us being under a different dispensation, it is not the same.
1 John 2:27 is a great revelation whereby we need not have to rely on false teachers behind pulpits, on TV, in books and magazines, radio, the internet...et al. The Lord is the final authority in whom we can always trust. If you say the Lord is revealing one thing to you, and another says the same Lord revealed what is contrary to your beliefs, then one or both of you are NOT hearing anything from the Lord, and are only fooling yourselves. It really is just that simple. Many people out there are simply unteachable because of their pride, which should drive us ALL into prayer and fasting while seeking the Lord's working within us to drive out that pride in some cruddy pastor who teaches falsehoods as a routine that so many choose to sit under and follow.
MM
There were truths that applied Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that do not apply us today.
There were truths that applied to Noah that do not apply to us today.
There were truths that applied to Moses and the Israelites that do not apply to us today.
There are truths that Jesus and the apostles taught that do not apply to us today.
There are truths that DO apply to us today that did not apply to peoples in other dispensations mentioned above.
Rightly dividing the word of truth is not a matter of separating truth from falsehoods, it's a matter of separating truth from truth because not all truths apply to all peoples across all of time.
So, when people figure they have license to combine those truths of an adjacent dispensation with us today, that creates only confusion and chaos, such as making grace out to be something one must maintain because of commandments under an adjacent dispensation to persevere unto the end so that one SHALL (future tense) be saved; that contrasted with Paul's teaching that upon receiving grace after faith in the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of Christ followed by the SEALING of Holy Spirit in salvation at that moment (which is nowhere stated as being what is given in the adjacent dispensation), and thus no need to persevere unto end so that we SHALL be saved...we're saved right now, not at some future point in time on the basis of persevering.
Many people know to not combine the dispensation of Law into our lives today, while others DO believe the Law is still required for us today, with all of them picking and choose what they WANT to apply today from those other dispensations whatever fits with what they've been taught by their false teaching pastors and/or Sunday school teachers, etc., and/or what they WANT to believe.
For another example, look at the Hebrew Roots movement...they are firmly convinced that we are all still beholden to portions of the Mosaic Law, such as diet, festivals and observances, social, etc., and they remain clueless to the fact that they have fallen from grace. Borrowing elements of the Kingdom Gospel, and superimposing those things onto the Gospel of grace, and one has a system of belief with gross inconsistencies, for grace does not mix with works as the basis for its offer and operation in a life. Paul clearly argued:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
It is so simple, and yet so overlooked, with people thinking that they can somehow add works to the gift of grace, and thus make it better or more effective, and that simply cannot be the case. The OP is a prime example of the confusions that have arisen by trying to blend together two systems of truth, one of which was TO us and other not, with the other being TO them and not us.
Imagine going to work on payday, and your boss saying, "Here's a check for some money that is a gift," to which you reply, "Wait a minute, where's my paycheck based upon my work? I earned an actual paycheck. Thanks for the gift, but where's my pay for my efforts?" The insult is quite glaring, even though the masses of unprincipled and non-discerning out there would not care one way or the other so long as they got money, but the difference in the nature of what is handed over is indeed based upon two entirely different concepts that simply cannot be intermixed. It would be one thing to hire on with the understanding that receiving money on the basis salary level or hours worked would be acceptable on that basis, but NOT on the basis of earnings through a gift, and vice versa.
Does that help?
MM
There were truths that applied to Noah that do not apply to us today.
There were truths that applied to Moses and the Israelites that do not apply to us today.
There are truths that Jesus and the apostles taught that do not apply to us today.
There are truths that DO apply to us today that did not apply to peoples in other dispensations mentioned above.
Rightly dividing the word of truth is not a matter of separating truth from falsehoods, it's a matter of separating truth from truth because not all truths apply to all peoples across all of time.
So, when people figure they have license to combine those truths of an adjacent dispensation with us today, that creates only confusion and chaos, such as making grace out to be something one must maintain because of commandments under an adjacent dispensation to persevere unto the end so that one SHALL (future tense) be saved; that contrasted with Paul's teaching that upon receiving grace after faith in the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of Christ followed by the SEALING of Holy Spirit in salvation at that moment (which is nowhere stated as being what is given in the adjacent dispensation), and thus no need to persevere unto end so that we SHALL be saved...we're saved right now, not at some future point in time on the basis of persevering.
Many people know to not combine the dispensation of Law into our lives today, while others DO believe the Law is still required for us today, with all of them picking and choose what they WANT to apply today from those other dispensations whatever fits with what they've been taught by their false teaching pastors and/or Sunday school teachers, etc., and/or what they WANT to believe.
For another example, look at the Hebrew Roots movement...they are firmly convinced that we are all still beholden to portions of the Mosaic Law, such as diet, festivals and observances, social, etc., and they remain clueless to the fact that they have fallen from grace. Borrowing elements of the Kingdom Gospel, and superimposing those things onto the Gospel of grace, and one has a system of belief with gross inconsistencies, for grace does not mix with works as the basis for its offer and operation in a life. Paul clearly argued:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
It is so simple, and yet so overlooked, with people thinking that they can somehow add works to the gift of grace, and thus make it better or more effective, and that simply cannot be the case. The OP is a prime example of the confusions that have arisen by trying to blend together two systems of truth, one of which was TO us and other not, with the other being TO them and not us.
Imagine going to work on payday, and your boss saying, "Here's a check for some money that is a gift," to which you reply, "Wait a minute, where's my paycheck based upon my work? I earned an actual paycheck. Thanks for the gift, but where's my pay for my efforts?" The insult is quite glaring, even though the masses of unprincipled and non-discerning out there would not care one way or the other so long as they got money, but the difference in the nature of what is handed over is indeed based upon two entirely different concepts that simply cannot be intermixed. It would be one thing to hire on with the understanding that receiving money on the basis salary level or hours worked would be acceptable on that basis, but NOT on the basis of earnings through a gift, and vice versa.
Does that help?
MM
Salvation from Adam until today has been by Grace through faith.
There has never been anyone on this planet saved any other way. Even the law (read the book of hebrews and Galations 3) could not save anyone, because it demanded perfection (cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey EVER word of this law)
So to say James is speaking to a different group of people who were saved a different way (as it appears you and a few others I have met try to say) is in error.
Paul said in Eph 2: 8 - 10
1. We are saved by grace
2. That grace is applied when we have faith
3. No works are involved
4. Those saved will do works
James talking to people who have taken legalism and did a complete 180, and now are teaching licentiousness (hearers of the word only not doers
1. He says they claim to have faith (he never said they had faith)
2. He told them to show their faith by their works )(prove them to him. Not God)
3. He said he would prove his faith, by doing the works (the same works paul said we will have in eph 2: 10)
it is context that seperates the words of james from the words of Paul.
Paul is talking to people trying to add works to the gospel. saying faith plus works.
james is talking to people who claim they had faith, but have no works. and telling them to examine their own faith is it real or is it dead.
There has never been anyone on this planet saved any other way. Even the law (read the book of hebrews and Galations 3) could not save anyone, because it demanded perfection (cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey EVER word of this law)
So to say James is speaking to a different group of people who were saved a different way (as it appears you and a few others I have met try to say) is in error.
Paul said in Eph 2: 8 - 10
1. We are saved by grace
2. That grace is applied when we have faith
3. No works are involved
4. Those saved will do works
James talking to people who have taken legalism and did a complete 180, and now are teaching licentiousness (hearers of the word only not doers
1. He says they claim to have faith (he never said they had faith)
2. He told them to show their faith by their works )(prove them to him. Not God)
3. He said he would prove his faith, by doing the works (the same works paul said we will have in eph 2: 10)
it is context that seperates the words of james from the words of Paul.
Paul is talking to people trying to add works to the gospel. saying faith plus works.
james is talking to people who claim they had faith, but have no works. and telling them to examine their own faith is it real or is it dead.
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No. In 1Co, we are told that salvation occurs first; from salvation that one receives the Holy Spirit; through the Holy Spirit that one is taught spiritual doctrine. Consequently, spiritual understanding ( which is given by the Holy Spirit) is only given to those chosen to salvation.
[Mat 13:11 KJV]
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[Mar 4:11 KJV]
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
[Luk 8:10 KJV]
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
[Mat 13:11 KJV]
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[Mar 4:11 KJV]
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
[Luk 8:10 KJV]
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
This comment was supposed to be posted to this one. First posting looked weird without what I was responding to.
Honestly I've lost the point you're making. Are you saying, concerning your salvation, that you do have a reason to boast in yourself? Are you claiming you deserve glory for obeying good enough? Because from where I'm sitting it, sure sounds like that's what you're arguing for. To me you seemed more concerned for the glory men deserve for "their part" in salvation, (I say no part, that we play no part in the gift of salvation) than you are concerned for glorify the Savior for His part, "THE PART". Don't take this wrong I'm not trying to say you don't love God or are not saved, none of that kind of thing that is between you and Him, but your arguments all seem to lift up us men/women while degrading and demoting Gods "PART" in it all. After reading your "quote" at the bottom of your comment I see what fuels your thoughts on this matter.
You're so anti-Calvin that if anyone says anything you think even resembles any "Calvin like teaching" you retreat to the complete other side of the spectrum and do not listen, do not ask a question, you dig into what you've characterized "Calvinism" to be in your head and you apply all those beliefs that you hate into what we believe, then you only attack the vision you made in your head and do not listen to anything that the person says to you. You dig in and attack a strawman never even listening to what that person actually believes and why they believe it. You can't even hear that person say they are not a Calvinist, they do not believe what you say they do, and you have rehearsed answers for everything all the time, only they are answers to the image you've created in your own mind and not to the actual beliefs of the person you decide to throw that label on.
Not to be mean but take this conversation for example. I have had a very hard time understanding exactly what you're actually arguing for here. Doesn't seem very clear to be straight up, but I have to conclude that if I'm making the assertion that we get NO credit for salvation, deserve NO glory for it at all and have NO reason to boast. I have to assume you are arguing that we DO deserve, at least a little credit for salvation, that we DO deserve some glory for it, and that we DO have something to boast about in ourselves. To be honest when you step back and look at it that seems kind of like Satanic doctrine, wouldn't you say? Kind of self centered isn't it? It does to me.
I did want to define clearly what we were debating here. Does this about sum it up accurately? I'm arguing God rightly deserves ALL credit, glory, just everything concerning salvation, every salvation, and you argue that we deserve at least a little bit of that glory for ourselves.
Honestly I've lost the point you're making. Are you saying, concerning your salvation, that you do have a reason to boast in yourself? Are you claiming you deserve glory for obeying good enough? Because from where I'm sitting it, sure sounds like that's what you're arguing for. To me you seemed more concerned for the glory men deserve for "their part" in salvation, (I say no part, that we play no part in the gift of salvation) than you are concerned for glorify the Savior for His part, "THE PART". Don't take this wrong I'm not trying to say you don't love God or are not saved, none of that kind of thing that is between you and Him, but your arguments all seem to lift up us men/women while degrading and demoting Gods "PART" in it all. After reading your "quote" at the bottom of your comment I see what fuels your thoughts on this matter.
You're so anti-Calvin that if anyone says anything you think even resembles any "Calvin like teaching" you retreat to the complete other side of the spectrum and do not listen, do not ask a question, you dig into what you've characterized "Calvinism" to be in your head and you apply all those beliefs that you hate into what we believe, then you only attack the vision you made in your head and do not listen to anything that the person says to you. You dig in and attack a strawman never even listening to what that person actually believes and why they believe it. You can't even hear that person say they are not a Calvinist, they do not believe what you say they do, and you have rehearsed answers for everything all the time, only they are answers to the image you've created in your own mind and not to the actual beliefs of the person you decide to throw that label on.
Not to be mean but take this conversation for example. I have had a very hard time understanding exactly what you're actually arguing for here. Doesn't seem very clear to be straight up, but I have to conclude that if I'm making the assertion that we get NO credit for salvation, deserve NO glory for it at all and have NO reason to boast. I have to assume you are arguing that we DO deserve, at least a little credit for salvation, that we DO deserve some glory for it, and that we DO have something to boast about in ourselves. To be honest when you step back and look at it that seems kind of like Satanic doctrine, wouldn't you say? Kind of self centered isn't it? It does to me.
I did want to define clearly what we were debating here. Does this about sum it up accurately? I'm arguing God rightly deserves ALL credit, glory, just everything concerning salvation, every salvation, and you argue that we deserve at least a little bit of that glory for ourselves.
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The tendency to force concepts of meaning into places where they are never mentioned nor specified, that's a level of subjectivity that I simply am not going to agree. Nowhere does it say Abraham was saved by grace through faith, although it is said that her obeyed God's Law, commandments, statutes and voice. Not one of us can say that we obeyed the Law, statutes and commandments, but there are those who will still demand it's all the same.
Under the Mosaic Law, they had to DO works of the Law for the Lord to consider them justified for the salvation they will/have received.
Under grace, we are not under that expectation. And those who think they can preach to an Israeli what it means to do works for justification, well, you can always try... We have Paul's words on how wrong that is, who also was an Israeli.
This is the problem for failure to rightly divide the word of truth. Many people simply refuse to do as is commanded...imagine that. Nothing new here.
MM
Under the Mosaic Law, they had to DO works of the Law for the Lord to consider them justified for the salvation they will/have received.
Under grace, we are not under that expectation. And those who think they can preach to an Israeli what it means to do works for justification, well, you can always try... We have Paul's words on how wrong that is, who also was an Israeli.
This is the problem for failure to rightly divide the word of truth. Many people simply refuse to do as is commanded...imagine that. Nothing new here.
MM
No where does it say he was saved by works.
In gen 15, we are told he believed God. and God credited to him righteousness.
1. it does not say it is because he worked.
2. if it is not done because of works. By practive, it is by Grace (it is either grace or works, there is not another way)
When abraham was saved, there was no law. or commands. not sure what your trying to say here.
Um, the word says different. No one was ever saved by the law.. period. Moses gave them the commands, and he demanded they must obey them all (every word) or they would be cursed. thats why Paul said the law was a tutor to lead them to christ.
They were nto either.
Grace has always been the means of salvation..
look inside man, You are not rightly dividing the word.
Paul makes that clear in romans 4
Romans 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father[a] has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
here you have 2 OT people in agreement, it was never by works.
But paul does not stop here..
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
It is for the jew and the greek.. It was not just for the church..
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, it could never bring salvation, it was never intended to!!
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
It has always been of grace. here it is in black and whit
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
In gen 15, we are told he believed God. and God credited to him righteousness.
1. it does not say it is because he worked.
2. if it is not done because of works. By practive, it is by Grace (it is either grace or works, there is not another way)
When abraham was saved, there was no law. or commands. not sure what your trying to say here.
Um, the word says different. No one was ever saved by the law.. period. Moses gave them the commands, and he demanded they must obey them all (every word) or they would be cursed. thats why Paul said the law was a tutor to lead them to christ.
They were nto either.
Grace has always been the means of salvation..
look inside man, You are not rightly dividing the word.
Paul makes that clear in romans 4
Romans 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father[a] has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
here you have 2 OT people in agreement, it was never by works.
But paul does not stop here..
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
It is for the jew and the greek.. It was not just for the church..
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, it could never bring salvation, it was never intended to!!
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
It has always been of grace. here it is in black and whit
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Is there a verse in Genesis where it says anything about "salvation" in relation to Abraham?
What we ARE told is this:
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
I don't know of any man who would refuse an epitaph like that from the Lord.
I don't recall anyone, myself included, who said anything about the Law saving anyone. The difference is that obedience to the Law was required of them, even in the time of Christ when He was preaching the Kingdom Gospel.
Matthew 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
And yet James said this:
James 2:14, 17, 21-22, 24
14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ...
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ...
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ...
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Contrast that with Paul:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Why so many people fail to understand this is quite astounding. Grace is, by the way, bestowed on the basis of faith:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Please show to me where this was spoken TO anyone else under any other dispensation without forcing meaning into those texts that's not there.
I'm not saying it was a bad thing for James to reveal what was spoken TO others in another time and under a different dispensation. It was/is true TO them, and for our understanding of what was TO them. James spoke the truth as it applied TO those people at that time.
See the difference? If not, then I don't know what else can be said as is stated with clarity within the scriptures. Trying to spiritualize the clarity of what was spoken to believers, claiming it was all allegorical under the blanket of spiritual language, well, that only pseaks to the level of subjectivity to which so many want to try and force scripture within so that they can then twist it to any end.
MM
What we ARE told is this:
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
I don't know of any man who would refuse an epitaph like that from the Lord.
I don't recall anyone, myself included, who said anything about the Law saving anyone. The difference is that obedience to the Law was required of them, even in the time of Christ when He was preaching the Kingdom Gospel.
Matthew 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
And yet James said this:
James 2:14, 17, 21-22, 24
14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ...
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ...
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ...
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Contrast that with Paul:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Why so many people fail to understand this is quite astounding. Grace is, by the way, bestowed on the basis of faith:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Please show to me where this was spoken TO anyone else under any other dispensation without forcing meaning into those texts that's not there.
I'm not saying it was a bad thing for James to reveal what was spoken TO others in another time and under a different dispensation. It was/is true TO them, and for our understanding of what was TO them. James spoke the truth as it applied TO those people at that time.
See the difference? If not, then I don't know what else can be said as is stated with clarity within the scriptures. Trying to spiritualize the clarity of what was spoken to believers, claiming it was all allegorical under the blanket of spiritual language, well, that only pseaks to the level of subjectivity to which so many want to try and force scripture within so that they can then twist it to any end.
MM
I think your view of James takes a peculiar turn. I have looked at James simply stating the difference between “Real” faith and an empty faith. Genuine faith always has expression in ones life. Our faith is evident by what we do, not by what we say. In this view, I see no difference between what Paul says, compared to James.
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SMH
Gen 15: 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.
lets look in context.
4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Nothing about Abraham being saved, or being made righteous.. its about God making him a great nation..
lol..Yet many have..
Sorry my friend. God does not allow us to be disobedient.
They as Jews were required to keep the law if they were to recieve the benefits.
it could not save them, never could..
and there was no law when Abraham believed God in Gen 15.. so trying to use the law in James is out there.
Yes. Why did Jesus tell him to do this. he was already healed. Could there be another reason Jesus told him to do this?
You just proved my point for me.. Notice the words. if a MAN SAY;
He did not say he had faith..
A dead faith, is no faith at all.. Again, this proves my poinbt. these people were hearers of the word not doers..
Abraham was justified in Gen 15. before his son was even born.. Sp james could not be saying he was justified by God only after he offered his son.
So James and paul are at odds.
Way to go. olets throw our bible out.
Why would you go here and not romans 4? Are you afraid to look at romans 4?
It has always been this way
Please show me where in any dispensation anyone was eternally saved by anything other than grace and faith.
But your wrong.
The context of james is to fight licentious believers. even demons believe and tremble. James is saying mere belief will never save you
Paul said we are saved by grace through faith
James is saying if you do not have that faith, your not saved.
Believing in one god never saved anyone..
There is no difference.. other than who They were talking to
Your distorting scripture. and making a different gospel. which is not found in scripture.
I am not spiritualizing anything, I am stating fact.
paul. Speaking to people trying to add works to grace, For by grace we have been saved through faith, and not of ourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast. For we were created in Christ for good works
James,. If you claim to have faith, but do not have the works Paul said you will have, then your faith is dead. and your not saved.
Paul and James are saying the exact same thing, only to different people in different context.
Gen 15: 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.
lets look in context.
4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Nothing about Abraham being saved, or being made righteous.. its about God making him a great nation..
lol..Yet many have..
Sorry my friend. God does not allow us to be disobedient.
They as Jews were required to keep the law if they were to recieve the benefits.
it could not save them, never could..
and there was no law when Abraham believed God in Gen 15.. so trying to use the law in James is out there.
Yes. Why did Jesus tell him to do this. he was already healed. Could there be another reason Jesus told him to do this?
You just proved my point for me.. Notice the words. if a MAN SAY;
He did not say he had faith..
A dead faith, is no faith at all.. Again, this proves my poinbt. these people were hearers of the word not doers..
Abraham was justified in Gen 15. before his son was even born.. Sp james could not be saying he was justified by God only after he offered his son.
So James and paul are at odds.
Way to go. olets throw our bible out.
Why would you go here and not romans 4? Are you afraid to look at romans 4?
It has always been this way
Please show me where in any dispensation anyone was eternally saved by anything other than grace and faith.
But your wrong.
The context of james is to fight licentious believers. even demons believe and tremble. James is saying mere belief will never save you
Paul said we are saved by grace through faith
James is saying if you do not have that faith, your not saved.
Believing in one god never saved anyone..
There is no difference.. other than who They were talking to
Your distorting scripture. and making a different gospel. which is not found in scripture.
I am not spiritualizing anything, I am stating fact.
paul. Speaking to people trying to add works to grace, For by grace we have been saved through faith, and not of ourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast. For we were created in Christ for good works
James,. If you claim to have faith, but do not have the works Paul said you will have, then your faith is dead. and your not saved.
Paul and James are saying the exact same thing, only to different people in different context.