Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

Just as I thought. You are trying to turn this passage of scripture into salvation by faith “plus works.” Once again, love is the greatest of faith, hope and love because long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do throughout eternity. We won't need faith and hope in our glorified bodies in the presence of the Lord. In regards to Matthew 25, you are confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and the end result once again is salvation by works. Your true colors are really showing.

Nope.
Love is not great because it remains, it is great because God is love and we can establish that love and faith are two different things from 1 Cor 13.
Faith alone doesn't save, faith without works is dead:

James 2:26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2:17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.

The works that must accompany faith are the works of love without which faith means nothing.

1 John 2:4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matt 25:
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

This is judgement day and what we see is judgement based on works and not faith. You can not turn these passage to mean otherwise. Jesus says they were righteous because of what they did.

 

[Margo74]

The word used in the verse is "we [plural]" (and "us [plural]"). I think that is important to note, here.

not sure what that has to do with what I replied but I shall go with it .. lol .. we choose to be with and stay with God or to never go to Him or to go to Him and then leave and maybe return or never return .. we make such choices and we enjoy or suffer the consequences of our choices .. God makes His choices known but will never force His choices on us .. sooooooooooooo, "I" or "each one" or "we" choose ...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hebrews 10:10 -

"By that will, we are having been sanctified [perfect participle] through [/by means of] the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

 

[UnderGrace]

Remember loving God is a salvation issue. If we dont love him we won't keep his commandments. Hebrews 5:9 Eternal Salvation is for those who OBEY.

And what exactly did Jesus accomplish on the cross I wonder then, since we are so capable of securing our own salvation?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And what exactly did Jesus accomplish on the cross I wonder then, since we are so capable of securing our own salvation?

Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's in the word
James 2:14-22 New International Version (NIV)
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15

1. Thanks for proving me right
2. Can you define “no deeds”. How many does that come to?

 

[Margo74]

Nope.
Love is not great because it remains, it is great because God is love and we can establish that love and faith are two different things from 1 Cor 13.
Faith alone doesn't save, faith without works is dead:

James 2:26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2:17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.

The works that must accompany faith are the works of love without which faith means nothing.

1 John 2:4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matt 25:
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

This is judgement day and what we see is judgement based on works and not faith. You can not turn these passage to mean otherwise. Jesus says they were righteous because of what they did.

first comes faith .. then comes loving and obeying .. obedience is obedience, not works .. we must believe Jesus is the ONE and ONLY Way to eternal salvation .. then we must love Him or be accursed .. He said Himself in John, "IF you love Me, [THEN] keep My commandments" (love God with whole being and neighbour aka everyone as oneself) .. when we fail to obey and we do, we have two choices: not to repent so lose salvation or repent and restore life aka salvation .. so, believe, love, obey - none are works and none are earning salvation .. Satan believed but is not saved coz he doesn't love or obey Christ .. so belief aka faith alone is not enough .. it is a very necessary very essential start, not the be all and end all ..

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"SIN" is not taken seriously in OSAS. It's taken lightly.

I disagree.




[besides disagreeing with this point ^ , I think there is some confusion out there, that those holding to "eternal security [OSAS]" are automatically "Calvinist"... I'm not Calvinist, nor am I Arminianist, as I stated the other day... One does not have to hold to either of these two doctrines as though these are the only two options and one MUST be one or else be the other. Not true.]

 

[Margo74]

Amen.

Jesus died to PAY THE DEBT DUE FOR MAN'S SINS .. salvation was lost due to sin and then offered again out of God's love but there was a debt to pay for the sin that caused salvation to be lost and Christ chose to pay it for all of us .. and except for the unforgivable sin of blasphemy, all sins we "choose" to commit, and sin is a choice, will be forgiven and forgotten and not punished (as Christ paid the punishment) IF we choose to REPENT aka RETURN TO GOD AND HIS WILL .. the prodigal son repented but not all prodigal children choose to repent so said children choose to forfeit eternal life and accept eternal death in lake of fire ..

 

[FollowHisSteps]

1. Thanks for proving me right
2. Can you define “no deeds”. How many does that come to?

Reading along - Thanks for proving me right - has no meaning. About what and where is the proof as only
scripture is being quoted. It is written as if there are two positions here but neither is mentioned.

"no deeds" - Reading James he is clearly talking about those who say, look at my deeds

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
James 2

James is showing those who split faith and deeds into two, as if they exist alone.
He is making the point that faith need to produce deeds to have value, and deeds need
to come from faith to have value.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If your chosen you can still lose eternal life like Judas. If we deny him he will deny us.

Judas never lost it. He never had it. If he did. It’s not eternal life it’s conditional
Do we need to explain the difference between eternal and conditional?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Write the rest-----And had no deeds, his faith is useless.

No deeds

Once again explain how many deeds no deeds equals

Your deflecting

 

[Margo74]

I disagree.




[besides disagreeing with this point ^ , I think there is some confusion out there, that those holding to "eternal security [OSAS]" are automatically "Calvinist"... I'm not Calvinist, nor am I Arminianist, as I stated the other day... One does not have to hold to either of these two doctrines as though these are the only two options and one MUST be one or else be the other. Not true.]

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminianist .. I am me .. I believe in OSAS IFFFFFFFF, I choose to remain with God and to do His Holy Will in accordance with His Word and Truth .. at any time, I can wriggle my hand out of His Hand and no one can stop me and I can walk away and never return OR I can get wise and REPENT genuinely and return to God .. OSAS is only true and assured IF one believes, loves, obeys, repents when one fails to obey .. such is not works or attempt at earning salvation .. such is required .. believe in God, love God, do God's Will .. and the latter is all that guarantees "eternal security"

 

[Margo74]

Judas never lost it. He never had it. If he did. It’s not eternal life it’s conditional
Do we need to explain the difference between eternal and conditional?

sin brings death .. unrepentant sin ensures death .. eternal life will not happen if unrepentant sin exists as unrepentant sin ensures death, not life .. so "conditional" in that OSAS can only be for those who believe and love and NEVER sin or REPENT when they do sin ..

 

[FollowHisSteps]

No deeds
Once again explain how many deeds no deeds equals
Your deflecting

Deflecting? What is being deflected? You are being obtuse as if this means anything, lol

 

[UnderGrace]

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminianist .. I am me .. I believe in OSAS IFFFFFFFF, I choose to remain with God and to do His Holy Will in accordance with His Word and Truth .. at any time, I can wriggle my hand out of His Hand and no one can stop me and I can walk away and never return OR I can get wise and REPENT genuinely and return to God .. OSAS is only true and assured IF one believes, loves, obeys, repents when one fails to obey .. such is not works or attempt at earning salvation .. such is required .. believe in God, love God, do God's Will .. and the latter is all that guarantees "eternal security"

One can undo what God has done, on cannot unregenerate themselves.

As well, a person declared innocent of a debt cannot then be declared guilty again, because all debt has been assumed by a third party, the only way to get around this is to declare that all your debt was not paid for.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Judas never lost it. He never had it. If he did. It’s not eternal life it’s conditional
Do we need to explain the difference between eternal and conditional?

Jesus prays to the Father and says

12 None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
John 17

Judas was lost, because he was doomed to destruction.
So he was as saved as the others, until he was lost.

Whether you want to say he was saved and then lost it, which is one way of describing this, or
he never entered in to faith fully, so was never truly saved, it is obvious even the disciples were
unsure how to describe this because until Judas was revealed as the betrayer they thought he
was one of them.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

And what exactly did Jesus accomplish on the cross I wonder then, since we are so capable of securing our own salvation?

This is extrapolated logic.
We cannot save ourselves only Jesus can. Saying we have anything of value that God regards as good is
replacing Jesus and so saving ourselves. If we are saving ourselves what do we need Jesus for?

This logic only works if you believe Jesus does not regard us worthy of being saved. If we were not worthy
of being saved, we would not have been saved. This worthiness is not because of us having merit as sinners
but merit as redeemed, purified and sanctified people of God.

If one rejects there is no merit in believers, one then has to say God dooms some to hell and some to heaven,
and there is nothing in us that participates.

 

[Margo74]

Deflecting? What is being deflected? You are being obtuse as if this means anything, lol

One can undo what God has done, on cannot unregenerate themselves.

As well, a person declared innocent of a debt cannot then be declared guilty again, because all debt has been assumed by a third party, the only way to get around this is to declare that all your debt was not paid for.

so, Christ's death aka payment of debt incurred by sinfulness, means "license to sin and not face condemnation if we choose not to repent" .. first: doing God's Will is required and it is not done by sinning and not repenting .. second: by not sinning, we serve God by sinning and not repenting, we serve Satan and we cannot serve two masters .. third: old debts forgiven cannot be enforced again .. new debts are payable unless also forgiven (if we sin and repent, we shall be forgiven and not punished .. if we sin and choose not to repent, we shall not be forgiven and shall be punished - our choice, not God's) .. fourth: if an OSAS believer does blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and some do and such is the one unforgivable sin, will the OSAS believer be forgiven or not? .. I say, NOT .. again, that person's choice, not God's choice, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit .. bottom line each old debt paid or forgiven cannot be enforced again but each new debt must be paid or forgiven and will be enforced until such choice is made .. debt of new sins must be paid or forgiven and will be forgiven and not punished IF genuinely repented but NOT otherwise ..

 

[Noose]

first comes faith .. then comes loving and obeying .. obedience is obedience, not works .. we must believe Jesus is the ONE and ONLY Way to eternal salvation .. then we must love Him or be accursed .. He said Himself in John, "IF you love Me, [THEN] keep My commandments" (love God with whole being and neighbour aka everyone as oneself) .. when we fail to obey and we do, we have two choices: not to repent so lose salvation or repent and restore life aka salvation .. so, believe, love, obey - none are works and none are earning salvation .. Satan believed but is not saved coz he doesn't love or obey Christ .. so belief aka faith alone is not enough .. it is a very necessary very essential start, not the be all and end all ..

I agree with some and disagree with some.
You can not love God who you do not see and hate your brother who is with you everyday; you love God by loving others and by this you fulfill the one command.

Loving others has to be a work/deed, not a claim or a thought.