Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)

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DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,641
47
48
#43
Hyper-Calvinist or Regular-Calvinist. I would like to hear the views of the Calvinist who are not claiming to be one of the chosen. Every pro-Calvinist article, book or sermon seems to only come from the chosen elect side. I would like to hear the other sides view. It seems they would be the least bias of all the Calvinists since they are honest enough to admit they are not part of the "in" crowd.
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
480
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Philly, PA, USA
#44
Have no desire to mock them just want to talk to them. I have been told they exist but have yet to find them. Stop being so quick to judge.
Stop playing your game on someone else's thread. (I believe you as much as I believed Obama.)
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
480
83
Philly, PA, USA
#45
Hyper-Calvinist or Regular-Calvinist. I would like to hear the views of the Calvinist who are not claiming to be one of the chosen. Every pro-Calvinist article, book or sermon seems to only come from the chosen elect side. I would like to hear the other sides view. It seems they would be the least bias of all the Calvinists since they are honest enough to admit they are not part of the "in" crowd.
Who were you the last time you were on this site?

And, the stupidity of your game is you're asking for a Calvinist that isn't also a Christian. Stupid to put in all the study time on the topic of Christ when you won't follow him. You think you're being so clever. Not even close!
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
119
63
#47
Hyper-Calvinist or Regular-Calvinist. I would like to hear the views of the Calvinist who are not claiming to be one of the chosen. Every pro-Calvinist article, book or sermon seems to only come from the chosen elect side. I would like to hear the other sides view. It seems they would be the least bias of all the Calvinists since they are honest enough to admit they are not part of the "in" crowd.
A Calvinist who was not one of the chosen would be such a fool he wouldn't be worth listening to
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,976
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#48
I would like to hear the views of the Calvinist who are not claiming to be one of the chosen.
All the saved are chosen or they wouldn't be saved. But you don't know Scripture, right, which is why in ignorance you hold disdain for God's decrees and His electing grace?
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#49
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region."

- Acts 13:48, 49

Great post, and i must say this is a great verse, hard to get around that.
But isnt God repenting of his judgment on nineveh kind of pointless if He was the one who granted nineveh that repentance to begin with?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
7,801
331
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#50
1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)
God commands people to do things that they can't do precisely so they will realize they can't do it.

Matthew 5:48 [FONT=&quot]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[/FONT]
That would take a lot of effort trying to be perfect, right? And in the end, or within seconds depending on how hard you try, you would find out you are unable. Now what? You can't do what God has commanded. Do you just quit? Do you say "Oh well, I guess I'm not one of the elect, I'm just a vessel made for destruction". Or do you come to Christ and start asking for help.

If your 'choice' was the second one then you are of the elect. Do you know why?

John 6:44 [FONT=&quot]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/FONT]

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?
Wouldn't you want to evangelize even more if you knew that you could make an impact for Gods Kingdom? Or would you rather that He just uses someone else?

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?
If the Atonement is for everyone then everyone is saved. No one has anything to worry about. There won't even be any judgement. Because the Atonement has taken care of it for everyone. Even unbelievers and those that deny Christ.

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51
They are totally depraved. Grace is only irresistable for the elect.

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)
John 10:27-29
[FONT=&quot]27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.[/FONT]

(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads :D )
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
11,393
404
83
#51
If you want something to read on Calvinism read "The other side of Calvinism" by Laurence Vance. ISBN 0-9628898-7-3

Almost 800 pages of research and lots of comparatives.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#52
God commands people to do things that they can't do precisely so they will realize they can't do it.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That would take a lot of effort trying to be perfect, right? And in the end, or within seconds depending on how hard you try, you would find out you are unable. Now what? You can't do what God has commanded. Do you just quit? Do you say "Oh well, I guess I'm not one of the elect, I'm just a vessel made for destruction". Or do you come to Christ and start asking for help.

If your 'choice' was the second one then you are of the elect. Do you know why?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Wouldn't you want to evangelize even more if you knew that you could make an impact for Gods Kingdom? Or would you rather that He just uses someone else?

If the Atonement is for everyone then everyone is saved. No one has anything to worry about. There won't even be any judgement. Because the Atonement has taken care of it for everyone. Even unbelievers and those that deny Christ.

They are totally depraved. Grace is only irresistable for the elect.



John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Good point the be ye perfect, that surely is impossible, unless we are willing to drop the level of perfection pretty low :D
As for the atonement thing, the atonement was made for everyoen but only becomes effective once people humble themselves and repent. As was in the old testament, they made a sacrifice and people had to humble themselves.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
3,430
254
0
#53
Good point the be ye perfect, that surely is impossible, unless we are willing to drop the level of perfection pretty low :D
As for the atonement thing, the atonement was made for everyoen but only becomes effective once people humble themselves and repent. As was in the old testament, they made a sacrifice and people had to humble themselves.
i'm so glad you said that. it's an important concept and sometimes we see people (me, times past :eek: ) who do lower the bar.

i wonder, how can a person humble himself, in and of himself?
see the indictment against us before we're drawn to Christ...

as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:10-18)

if no one seeks for God, what hope have we?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
23,391
1,336
113
#54
I take being perfect to meaning being complete. When we are complete within ourselves we are not running around looking for things to validate us, or fulfill us. That is Satan's game. We have found our rest in Christ.

Strong's Concordance #5046
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown,
of full age,(c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,773
76
48
#55
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

I'm no Greek expert, but when we consider that there was some doubt about the Gentiles being included in the promises to Israel is it not possible that it could be translated in such as manner:

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who believed were appointed for eternal life.

Makes much more sense.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
3,430
254
0
#56
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

I'm no Greek expert, but when we consider that there was some doubt about the Gentiles being included in the promises to Israel is it not possible that it could be translated in such as manner:

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who believed were appointed for eternal life.

Makes much more sense.

i'm no Greek expert, either. so i checked with a few. :)


HELPS Word-studies
5021 tássō – properly, arrange (put in order); to place in a particular order, appoint; (figuratively) ordain, set in place; "station" (J. Thayer).
5021 /tássō ("place in position, post") was commonly used in ancient military language for "designating" ("appointing, commissioning") a specific status, i.e. arranging (placing) in a deliberate, fixed order.

[5021 (tássō) was "primarily a military term meaning 'to draw up in order, arrange in place, assign, appoint, order' " (A-S).]

Thayers:
ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωήν αἰώνιον, as many as were appointed (A. V. ordained) (by God) to obtain eternal life, or to whom God bad decreed eternal life, Acts 13:48; τινα ὑπό τινα, to put one under another's control (A. V. set under), passive

what do you think? :confused:
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,773
76
48
#57
I know the various Greek definitions notmyown

Adam Clarke's commentary:


Verse 48

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed - This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained; or predestinated by God's decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning.

Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life.

But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word τεταγμενος mean? The verb ταττω or τασσω signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned Acts 13:43, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming,Acts 13:45. Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it.

Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed.

Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here: those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,773
76
48
#58
"Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, "

Just looking a the Scott-Liddell on the above words that Adam Clarke mentions:


προτεταγμενοι

I.to place or post in front, πρ. σφῶν αὐτῶν Ἀστύμαχον put him at their head, as speaker, Thuc.:—Mid., προετάξατο τῆς φάλαγγοςτοὺς ἱππέας he posted his horse in front of it, Xen.:— Pass. to stand before one, so as to protect, Aesch.; τὸ προταχθέν, οἱπροτεταγμένοι the front ranks, van, Xen.

II.generally, to appoint or determine beforehand, χρόνον Soph.





 
Last edited:
Apr 4, 2017
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#59
Good point the be ye perfect, that surely is impossible, unless we are willing to drop the level of perfection pretty low :D
As for the atonement thing, the atonement was made for everyoen but only becomes effective once people humble themselves and repent. As was in the old testament, they made a sacrifice and people had to humble themselves.
Perfect in this verse means to come to full age in spiritual maturity and in context Jesus was saying your love for enemies, should be as mature as Fathers...

Matt 5.43-48
[SUP]43 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [SUP]45 [/SUP]so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? [SUP]47 [/SUP]If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? [SUP]48 [/SUP]Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,641
47
48
#60
Who were you the last time you were on this site?

And, the stupidity of your game is you're asking for a Calvinist that isn't also a Christian. Stupid to put in all the study time on the topic of Christ when you won't follow him. You think you're being so clever. Not even close!
You are one of the most judgmental persons I have met. Why are you coming out just at me. Trofimus said he not only believes they exist but has ministered to them. I don't see why you would come after me four times in this short thread and not Torfimus. I have been told that these people exist and logically it seems they must. Also, why can a un-chosen person not be able to see the logic of John Calvin, he was a clear and reasonable writer. Anyone, chosen or not should with a open mind see this. Unless you believe that accepting Calvinist theology is the litmus test for election. If this is the case, say it. If not stop mocking those who would like to hear the other side.