Why isn’t the new covenant part of “Isaiah only”?

[BenjaminN]

Why would the time and place a covenant was given have such a profound effect on the covenant itself? A covenant is a communication that God makes with us. The old covenant is a promise that a person or nation would be cursed or blessed according to his obedience to commands. Then a set of rules were given, commands given. It is another way of saying that if you steal you go to jail on this earth. It had nothing to do with the forgiveness that the Lord offered them, the eternal security they had when they repented of sin. It listed the sin they were to repent of. The God given laws of atonement still stood, it did not cancel those laws.

In the same way, the new covenant does the same thing, only we have forgiveness, not atonement. And the law is not a set of rules any longer, it has been improved making the old covenant obsolete. Now we are given the law of the Lord in our spirit and heart.

I think you've answered your own question, and I would like to agree with your answer:

Why would the time and place a covenant was given have such a profound effect on the covenant itself?

In the same way, the new covenant does the same thing, only we have forgiveness, not atonement. And the law is not a set of rules any longer, it has been improved making the old covenant obsolete. Now we are given the law of the Lord in our spirit and heart.

I would just maybe add that forgiveness brings atonement with God and that the spirit of the Lord's law on our minds and heart, is not contradictory to the set of rules God gave for us to understand his will. It does not seem that any of the 613 mitzvot contradict love God with all your heart, mind, soul and might and your fellow man as yourself. If indeed there is one that contradicts love to God and fellow man, please point it out: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

[Guojing]

Care to share yours?

Already did throughout this thread, see page 1.

 

[BenjaminN]

Already did throughout this thread, see page 1.

Sorry, I do not seem to find your interpretation of Ephesians 2:12-13, can you maybe point me to your post number, please?

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry, I do not seem to find your interpretation of Ephesians 2:12-13, can you maybe point me to your post number, please?

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Before Paul was raised to be the apostle to the gentiles, as that passage stated, we were without hope in this world

 

[BenjaminN]

BenjaminN said:
Sorry, I do not seem to find your interpretation of Ephesians 2:12-13, can you maybe point me to your post number, please?

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Before Paul was raised to be the apostle to the gentiles, as that passage stated, we were without hope in this world

And what is your interpretation of Ephesians 2:12-13 of what the position of the Gentiles are now?

 

[Guojing]

BenjaminN said:
Sorry, I do not seem to find your interpretation of Ephesians 2:12-13, can you maybe point me to your post number, please?

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.



And what is your interpretation of Ephesians 2:12-13 of what the position of the Gentiles are now?

In the body of Christ, Jews and gentiles are equal.

 

[BenjaminN]

In the body of Christ, Jews and gentiles are equal.

In accordance to Ephesians 2:12-13, is your interpretation that Gentiles, as part of the Body of Christ, are not anymore alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, nor strangers to the covenants of promise anymore, after been brought near by the blood of Christ?

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

In accordance to Ephesians 2:12-13, is your interpretation that Gentiles, as part of the Body of Christ, are not anymore alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, nor strangers to the covenants of promise anymore, after been brought near by the blood of Christ?

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

That does not imply, in any way, that we are now Israel

As I said, romans 9 to 11 will make no sense if you hold that doctrine

 

[BenjaminN]

That does not imply, in any way, that we are now Israel

As I said, romans 9 to 11 will make no sense if you hold that doctrine

What is your interpretation of the Olive Tree (Body of Christ? , with root as Christ / Messiah? , natural branches as remnant Jews of three tribes of Israel?, grafted in branches of Gentiles? ) of Romans 11? Is it the Body of Christ; or restored Israel; or is it the Body of Christ, of which Christ / Messiah is the root, of which the remnant of believing Jewish Israel is the natural remaining branches, and the believing Gentiles is the wild olive branches were grafted into restored Israel? Is the restored Olive Tree one entity (Church / Body of Christ / restored Israel) to you, or two separate entities?


Romans 11 (ESV)

1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." 4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever." 11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Scriptures do separate between two peoples, it separates those that honour God and the Lamb, and those that do not. Do you believe that there will only be 144,000 of ALL the tribes of Israel (not just the three Jewish tribes) that will one day appear before the throne of God, and that the rest will be non-Israel, a great multitude from every nation, tribes and peoples and languages that no one could number. And where is the other 10 tribe members (non-Jewish tribes) of Israel today who were scattered into all nation, tribes and tongues (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulun, Ephraim/Joseph, Dan)?


Revelation 7 (ESV)

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

I believe God made a promise to abraham, through ONE of his children and 12 grandchildren

1. to make them a nation
2. to give them land
3. to become their God,
4. by working in and through them show all the other nations (gentiles) that he is the lord God of all creation.

he stated the length of this promise or covenant is, forever, never ending, throughout all generations,

He later gave moses A warning to give those same pexpel, in Lev 26: he gives basically 7 cycles of discipline he would impose on them if they sinned against him, the final being total military defeat and the total destruction of their cities and high places, and that their enemies would rule their promised land.

he also in the same passage, said if they would repent, confess the sin of the fathers and their own sin, he would remember the convenient he made with the fathers (abraham Isaac and Jacob) and he would remember he land,

david remembered this promise when he made the prayer in daniel 9 concerning the end of the 70 year punishment Judah received for her sin, and was given the answer by Gabriel himself, that Isreal would be restored, she would repent, but not until many things happened, including the coming of messiah to be “cut off” for the people

the end of that time period has not happened yet, but it will, as paul said in Romans 11. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, Israel is hated for the sake of the gospel but believed for the sake of election, she will all be saved,

and no, we are not talking about gentile christians here, we are talking about born of blood people of Israel who did what God commanded in Lev 26 and repented, and admitted her sin and her fathers sin

 

[Guojing]

What is your interpretation of the Olive Tree (Body of Christ? , with root as Christ / Messiah? , natural branches as remnant Jews of three tribes of Israel?, grafted in branches of Gentiles? ) of Romans 11? Is it the Body of Christ; or restored Israel; or is it the Body of Christ, of which Christ / Messiah is the root, of which the remnant of believing Jewish Israel is the natural remaining branches, and the believing Gentiles is the wild olive branches were grafted into restored Israel? Is the restored Olive Tree one entity (Church / Body of Christ / restored Israel) to you, or two separate entities?

If you believe in this doctrine that everything becomes Israel, my guess is that you also don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ?

You believe all of us will also be going thru the 7 years of Jacob's trouble?

 

[BenjaminN]

If you believe in this doctrine that everything becomes Israel, my guess is that you also don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ?

You believe all of us will also be going thru the 7 years of Jacob's trouble?

Scriptures do not convey a message of pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ nor separating the Body of Christ from restored Israel under King Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach.

Concerning the tribulation, God's elect will not fear, but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. The great tribulation will not be a tribulation at all, for those that are not from God's elect, as they will go on with their lives as they would have taken the mark of the beast. Pre-tribulation rapture is a false hope teaching not founded in scripture. The rapture is at the end of all ages, at the second coming of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah, for his elect people, he will come down from heaven, the dead will be raised, and those that have died in Christ will together with those who are alive in Christ, meet Christ in the sky. Those that will be left behind at the rapture of Yeshua ha'Mashiach's / Jesus the Messiah's second coming, will be destroyed by the fire that will consume what is left of the earth.


Matthew 24 (ESV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

After the great tribulation, this is when the true rapture happens, at the return of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah:


1 Thessalonians 4 (ESV)

15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Revelation 7 (ESV)

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen." 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

 

[Guojing]

Scriptures do not convey a message of pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ nor separating the Body of Christ from restored Israel under King Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach.

Concerning the tribulation, God's elect will not fear, but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. The great tribulation will not be a tribulation at all, for those that are not from God's elect, as they will go on with their lives as they would have taken the mark of the beast. Pre-tribulation rapture is a false hope teaching not founded in scripture. The rapture is at the end of all ages, at the second coming of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah, for his elect people, he will come down from heaven, the dead will be raised, and those that have died in Christ will together with those who are alive in Christ, meet Christ in the sky. Those that will be left behind at the rapture of Yeshua ha'Mashiach's / Jesus the Messiah's second coming, will be destroyed by the fire that will consume what is left of the earth.


Matthew 24 (ESV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

After the great tribulation, this is when the true rapture happens, at the return of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah:


1 Thessalonians 4 (ESV)

15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Revelation 7 (ESV)

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen." 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

So if you believe we, as Israel, will also be going thru the Tribulation, what do you think the purpose is for us to go thru it?

Can we lose our salvation if one of us decides to take the mark of the beast during those 7 years?

 

[Yahshua]

If you believe in this doctrine that everything becomes Israel, my guess is that you also don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ?

You believe all of us will also be going thru...Jacob's trouble?

If I may cut in you two...

That's what the fall of Israel is describing, their trouble. This so called church age that blesses gentiles with the gospel and riches and Salvation IS the time of Jacob's trouble.

See the quote of Romans 11 below...

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles...22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off...28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake.

Notice how this language perfectly describes the prophecy the Messiah gave against Israel:

Luke 21:21-24
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And [Jews] shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:19-24
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

...the same elect that avoids great tribulation is the same "elect" mentioned in Romans 11...

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."

Note the timing of both writings. None of the terrible things that happened to the Jews in history had happened yet. In fact, some of the very elect who would avoid Jacob's trouble penned the very letters gentile believers study to this very day. The rest were darkened so that...

- Israel's Fall = Gentiles' Salvation

- Israel's Tresspass = World's Riches

- Israel's Failure = Gentiles' Riches

- Israel's Rejection = World's Reconciliation

- Natural Branches Broken off = Wild Branches Grafted in

- Israel's Hardness = Gentiles' Fullness

- Israel's Disobedience = Gentiles' Mercy

- Israel is counted as an enemy for gentiles sake.

- Jacob's Trouble = Gentile's Gospel

So the Great Tribulation (of Israel) = The Church Age (for Gentiles) until their fullness comes in....

...and then when the full number of gentiles comes into the fold, the rest of the elect of Israel (those who avoided such "trouble" because many weren't even born yet to live through the worst of it) will be regrafted as their eyes will fully open to the truth and Israel's tribulation will be over leading to The Return and The Resurrection.

15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

The Almighty wastes no event. He is perfectly wise and perfectly efficient.

 

[BenjaminN]

So if you believe we, as Israel, will also be going thru the Tribulation, what do you think the purpose is for us to go thru it?

Can we lose our salvation if one of us decides to take the mark of the beast during those 7 years?

Salvation can not be lost or gained, it is pre-ordained by God, since the foundation of the world, the names of those who are saved, has been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

[oyster67]

I am often scolded severely for not understanding the concept of Israel only. I am also told I do not understand the new covenant. I search scripture and pray, and I am having real trouble aligning my understanding with scripture and these posters. I am God’s child, scripture has to come first.

In Jeremiah 31:31 it tells us “I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah”. If it is true that we are not included when God speaks to Israel and Judah, wouldn’t it then follow that we are not included in the new covenant? Yet everyone knows that we are included.

I hope your feedback will help. I read the OT as to me as well as Israel, so I even sometimes pray with the 23rd Psalm. What am I not understanding?

Jesus died to deliver us all, both Jew and Gentile, from the bondage of the OT. It is now only for the sinner, not the Saint. Jew and Gentile are made one once the individuals of each become Born Again.

Things are much simplified now...

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We now are free unto Christian Liberty! PTL!

What the Messiah rejecting Judaizers will face in the future, I know not. But we are not of that number.

 

[Guojing]

Salvation can not be lost or gained, it is pre-ordained by God, since the foundation of the world, the names of those who are saved, has been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

You mean during the Tribulation, a believer does not have the free choice to choose to take the mark?

 

[Guojing]

Note the timing of both writings. None of the terrible things that happened to the Jews in history had happened yet. In fact, some of the very elect who would avoid Jacob's trouble penned the very letters gentile believers study to this very day. The rest were darkened so that...

- Israel's Fall = Gentiles' Salvation

- Israel's Tresspass = World's Riches

- Israel's Failure = Gentiles' Riches

- Israel's Rejection = World's Reconciliation

- Natural Branches Broken off = Wild Branches Grafted in

- Israel's Hardness = Gentiles' Fullness

- Israel's Disobedience = Gentiles' Mercy

- Israel is counted as an enemy for gentiles sake.

- Jacob's Trouble = Gentile's Gospel

So the Great Tribulation (of Israel) = The Church Age (for Gentiles) until their fullness comes in....

...and then when the full number of gentiles comes into the fold, the rest of the elect of Israel (those who avoided such "trouble" because many weren't even born yet to live through the worst of it) will be regrafted as their eyes will fully open to the truth and Israel's tribulation will be over leading to The Return and The Resurrection.



The Almighty wastes no event. He is perfectly wise and perfectly efficient.

Can you elaborate what you mean by these 2

Jacob's Trouble = Gentile's Gospel
Great Tribulation (of Israel) = The Church Age (for Gentiles)

 

[BenjaminN]

Jesus died to deliver us all, both Jew and Gentile, from the bondage of the OT. It is now only for the sinner, not the Saint. Jew and Gentile are made one once the individuals of each become Born Again.

Things are much simplified now...

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We now are free unto Christian Liberty! PTL!

What the Messiah rejecting Judaizers will face in the future, I know not. But we are not of that number.

The law has remained unchanged, the covenant has changed. Jesus / Yeshua came to write God's laws in his blood on our hearts and minds under his new covenant of grace and forgiveness of sins. Without the law of love, it is a lawless world we live in, the world of the Anti-Christ / Anti-Messiah:


Leviticus 19 (ESV)

18 ... you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."


2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


2 Peter 3 (ESV)

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[BenjaminN]

You mean during the Tribulation, a believer does not have the free choice to choose to take the mark?

Everybody has a free will and God is almighty. God knows the nature of his entire creation, and knew from the beginning of the world who will persevere, and whose name is written in the book of life and of the Lamb who was slain. God's believers CANNOT CHOOSE TO TAKE THE MARK AND WORSHIP THE BEAST, GOD'S BELIEVERS WORSHIPS GOD ONLY.