Why isn’t the new covenant part of “Isaiah only”?

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Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#81
Can you elaborate what you mean by these 2

Jacob's Trouble = Gentile's Gospel
Great Tribulation (of Israel) = The Church Age (for Gentiles)
Sure...

The TIME of Jacob's Trouble is the same TIME of the Gentiles receiving the Gospel. The moment they rejected the Messiah they became enemies of the Almighty and every punishment that was written in the OT scriptures would be carried out on them, as Messiah said. These last approx 2000 years, what gentile believers have called the church age (as gentile believers in Messiah have grown and grown), have been and ARE the days of great tribulation on the natural branches in our history [temple destruction, persecution, inquisitions, scattering, shaming, rejecting, war, etc], until the full number of the wild branches (i.e. gentile believers) are grafted in...then the natural branches will open their eyes.

Notice that the Messiah says the days of vengeance for those people begin when they see Jerusalem surrounded by the army. Then He says they'd be killed, and taken captive into all nations and Jerusalem would be trampled on by gentiles UNTIL the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. Israel is STILL scattered to the four corners to this day.

All of this began in 70AD and hasn't stopped throughout history...but things are less severe for the Jews now which means the full number of gentile believers has almost been reached.

It is the Messiah alone who regathers Israel from the four corners of the earth. And it is He who raises the dead. Such time is upon us.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#82
Sure...

The TIME of Jacob's Trouble is the same TIME of the Gentiles receiving the Gospel. The moment they rejected the Messiah they became enemies of the Almighty and every punishment that was written in the OT scriptures would be carried out on them, as Messiah said. These last approx 2000 years, what gentile believers have called the church age (as gentile believers in Messiah have grown and grown), have been and ARE the days of great tribulation on the natural branches in our history [temple destruction, persecution, inquisitions, scattering, shaming, rejecting, war, etc], until the full number of the wild branches (i.e. gentile believers) are grafted in...then the natural branches will open their eyes.

Notice that the Messiah says the days of vengeance for those people begin when they see Jerusalem surrounded by the army. Then He says they'd be killed, and taken captive into all nations and Jerusalem would be trampled on by gentiles UNTIL the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. Israel is STILL scattered to the four corners to this day.

All of this began in 70AD and hasn't stopped throughout history...but things are less severe for the Jews now which means the full number of gentile believers has almost been reached.

It is the Messiah alone who regathers Israel from the four corners of the earth. And it is He who raises the dead. Such time is upon us.
Oh, so you don't believe that it will last only 7 years?

That means even right now, you believe we are going thru the period of Jacob's trouble? Where is the mark of the beast then?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#83
Everybody has a free will and God is almighty. God knows the nature of his entire creation, and knew from the beginning of the world who will persevere, and whose name is written in the book of life and of the Lamb who was slain. God's believers CANNOT CHOOSE TO TAKE THE MARK AND WORSHIP THE BEAST, GOD'S BELIEVERS WORSHIPS GOD ONLY.
You believe everybody has free will to choose.
You also believe believers CANNOT choose to take the mark.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#84
You believe everybody has free will to choose.
You also believe believers CANNOT choose to take the mark.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?
It would be contradicting to the very nature of a believer worshipping God, to take the mark of the beast (being cowardly for fear of consequence, or lack of faith, being detestable, or whatever other reason) and worship the beast.


Revelation 21 (ESV)


8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Read up on what Daniel and his friends had to go through, for not worshipping anything other than the one true God, and how God preserved them through their very real ordeals.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#85
Oh, so you don't believe that it will last only 7 years?

That means even right now, you believe we are going thru the period of Jacob's trouble? Where is the mark of the beast then?
Well technically gentiles aren't going through Jacob's trouble. It's called JACOB'S trouble. Throughout biblical history whenever Israel was not operating in obedience they were called Jacob (supplanter). There are many prophecies where BOTH Jacob AND Israel were mentioned at the same time, showing the distinction between the elect and the disobedient of the nation.

The mark of the beast simply means The Charagma (character) of the animal.

- Evolution; Survival of the fittest

- Dog eat dog; selfishness; war (Romans 6:6 - the old man)

- Fear; secularism; humanism; greed/Capitalism (1 Kings 10:14 - 666 talents of gold given to Solomon)

- democracy; rule of the people; self-ruled instead of God-ruled ("and man was created on the 6th day")

- lifestyles of fornication, adultery, pornography; homosexuality; LGBT; incest are protected by governments ("sex" is Latin for 6; sex sex sex, xxx is 666)

These things aren't outliers anymore. These things are worldwide and woven into todays society as norms.

So a better question is where isn't the mark of the beast in this world right now?

Romans 8:20-21
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#86
Oh, so you don't believe that it will last only 7 years?

That means even right now, you believe we are going thru the period of Jacob's trouble? Where is the mark of the beast then?
The great tribulation as described in Matthew 24:21 will be the last 3.5 years before the return of Christ / Messiah to this earth. Could you please reference the scripture referring to Jacob's trouble as opposed to the great tribulation that all nations will be going through, before the end.


Daniel 9 (ESV)


27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week (seven years), and for half of the week (three and a half years) he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering (worship to God being forbidden). And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."


Matthew 24 (ESV)


12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation (the generation seeing these things) will not pass away until all these things take place. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#87
It would be contradicting to the very nature of a believer worshipping God, to take the mark of the beast (being cowardly for fear of consequence, or lack of faith, being detestable, or whatever other reason) and worship the beast.


Revelation 21 (ESV)


8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Read up on what Daniel and his friends had to go through, for not worshipping anything other than the one true God, and how God preserved them through their very real ordeals.
I suspect what you are really saying is that, none of us can be sure of our salvation now, because only God knows at the end who are the true believers who will not take the mark.

Is that a more accurate description of your doctrine?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#88
The great tribulation as described in Matthew 24:21 will be the last 3.5 years before the return of Christ / Messiah to this earth. Could you please reference the scripture referring to Jacob's trouble as opposed to the great tribulation that all nations will be going through, before the end.


Daniel 9 (ESV)


27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week (seven years), and for half of the week (three and a half years) he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering (worship to God being forbidden). And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."


Matthew 24 (ESV)


12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation (the generation seeing these things) will not pass away until all these things take place. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Oh, so you are actually distinguishing the 2 terms.

You believe that Jacob's trouble is ongoing now, but the Great Tribulation will only take place at the last half of those 7 years, the 3.5 years.

But you still believe all the Christians, who are alive then, will also be undergoing that Great Tribulation too?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#89
I suspect what you are really saying is that, none of us can be sure of our salvation now, because only God knows at the end who are the true believers who will not take the mark.

Is that a more accurate description of your doctrine?
Scripture is the only doctrine. Salvation is by grace, which is the gift of God. Those who received salvation from God are assured that it is eternal. Those who do not persevere in their faith, never received salvation from God.

Luke 8 (ESV)

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
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#90
Oh, so you are actually distinguishing the 2 terms.

You believe that Jacob's trouble is ongoing now, but the Great Tribulation will only take place at the last half of those 7 years, the 3.5 years.

But you still believe all the Christians, who are alive then, will also be undergoing that Great Tribulation too?
Yes, the scriptures tells us that all the elect Christians, of that generation who are alive then, will also be undergoing that Great Tribulation too.

I am not familiar with the term Jacob's trouble, if it is scriptural and where it is stated in scripture. The place in scripture I found it yesterday is in the King James version of Jeremiah 30, which refers to Jacob's trouble following Assyrian and Babylonian captivity. Part of Jacob, the Jews, the three tribes under Judah's troubles have ended, they are back in the land of southern Israel, Judea. The remainder of Jacob, the Ephramites, the northern 10 lost tribes from Assyrian captivity has to this date not returned from their trouble. Ezekiel 37 also prophesies that both Jews and Ephramites will reunite under an earthly king who has Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach as his heavenly King, and will be back in the promised land, before the end will come, and the great tribulation will be in the last 3.5 years of human existence in accordance with Daniel 9:27, before the return of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach in the clouds at the very end, in accordance with Mathew 24.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#91
Believing Israel (in Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach ) is Christendom.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#92
Scripture is the only doctrine. Salvation is by grace, which is the gift of God. Those who received salvation from God are assured that it is eternal. Those who do not persevere in their faith, never received salvation from God.
So you believe in the following?

If one does not persevere in their faith in the future, they were never saved in the past?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
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#93
So you believe in the following?

If one does not persevere in their faith in the future, they were never saved in the past?
See how one can loose their faith in God's word: Some never believed; some hear with joy, believe for a while and in times of testing fall away; some believe but are choked by the cares, riches and pleasures of life and their fruit does not mature. Those that believe eternally, their seed fell on the good soil of their hearts and minds, they hold fast to God's word in an honest and good heart in perseverance, and they bear fruit with patience continually till the end.

Luke 8 (ESV)

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#94
Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people (not just Jacob's trouble, but all nation's trouble) and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#95
Believing Israel (in Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach ) is Christendom.
Since Christendom consists primarily of Gentiles, this is incorrect. Christendom includes all the denominations and groups on earth who claim to be Christians. But the sad reality is that only a small fraction may be genuine.

As to believing Israel, the first church was that at Jerusalem. But Gentiles were grafted into the Church (the Body of Christ). And the majority of Jews were judicially blinded by God after they refused to obey the Gospel. However, that will all change after the Second Coming of Christ. And there will indeed to be a redeemed and restored nation of Israel under Christ.

Christians would not be so confused about these matters if they would understand that the Church is NOT Israel, and Israel is not the Church.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#96
See how one can loose their faith in God's word: Some never believed; some hear with joy, believe for a while and in times of testing fall away; some believe but are choked by the cares, riches and pleasures of life and their fruit does not mature. Those that believe eternally, their seed fell on the good soil of their hearts and minds, they hold fast to God's word in an honest and good heart in perseverance, and they bear fruit with patience continually till the end.

Luke 8 (ESV)

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
So is your answer a yes?

Because I think what you are saying is that one can never be sure whether or not he is saved.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#97
Since Christendom consists primarily of Gentiles, this is incorrect. Christendom includes all the denominations and groups on earth who claim to be Christians. But the sad reality is that only a small fraction may be genuine. .....
The Jews as a subset of Jacob/Israel, excludes the 10 lost Ephramite tribes of the Israel Assyrian captivity, who has returned from their exile from all the nations of the four corners of the earth into Christendom, established by the Jews: the Jews Jesus / Yeshua, his jewish twelve disciples turned apostles, and the jewish early Christian convert, the apostle Paul.

As stated in Romans 11, describing the full olive tree, Body of Christ, most Jews were hardened until the completion of the time of the Gentiles, by the stumbling block, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach. That however will change when the original cut off branches (Jews) will be grafted in together after the wild olive branches (Gentiles) have been grafted in (when the time of the Gentiles have come to fruition). The grafting in of the original cut-off branches (jews) of the olive tree, is starting to become reality, as we see with Messianic Judaism (like oneforisrael.com ). Ezekiel 37 - 48 prophesies of this earth's restored Israel / Christendom, and a coming temple, in which the Anti-Christ, Anti-Messiah will proclaim himself to be the only god to be worship in the last 3.5 years on this earth before the return of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach. This all happens BEFORE THE RETURN OF CHRIST, AS THIS EARTH IS DESTROYED AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST, AND A NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH IS ESTABLISHED.

When God lift his spirit of stupor, and starts pouring out his spirit of grace, those of the Jews who are to be grafted into restored Israel / Christendom / the Body of Christ, they will mourn for the One we have pierced, for those of them who come to that realisation in time, before the return of the One we have pierced.


Zechariah 12 (ESV)


10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Romans 11
(ESV)

5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles (Ephraimite part of Israel were scattered into, and adopted and intermingled with Gentiles), so as to make Israel (the Jewish part of Israel) jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#98
So is your answer a yes?

Because I think what you are saying is that one can never be sure whether or not he is saved.
If the faith you have is of our faith (intellectual workings of the mind), it can be lost. If the faith you have is faith which is the gift of God, because of grace which is the gift of God, (childlike belief of Christ's / Messiah's atonement offering) it has been predestined since the beginning of time, and CAN NEVER BE LOST.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#99
If the faith you have is of our faith (intellectual workings of the mind), it can be lost. If the faith you have is faith which is the gift of God, because of grace which is the gift of God, (childlike belief of Christ's / Messiah's atonement offering) it has been predestined since the beginning of time, and CAN NEVER BE LOST.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
But we will never know whether we will persevere in the future right?

So how can one be sure now?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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I think you've answered your own question, and I would like to agree with your answer:

Why would the time and place a covenant was given have such a profound effect on the covenant itself?

In the same way, the new covenant does the same thing, only we have forgiveness, not atonement. And the law is not a set of rules any longer, it has been improved making the old covenant obsolete. Now we are given the law of the Lord in our spirit and heart.

I would just maybe add that forgiveness brings atonement with God and that the spirit of the Lord's law on our minds and heart, is not contradictory to the set of rules God gave for us to understand his will. It does not seem that any of the 613 mitzvot contradict love God with all your heart, mind, soul and might and your fellow man as yourself. If indeed there is one that contradicts love to God and fellow man, please point it out: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
It feels SO good to have someone agree with me about what scripture tells us. I have struggled so with the idea that God cancels something, so some things are said to not be eternal at all. It didn't seem to mesh with the holiness, the glory, the righteousness of all that is God.

You even state it in a clearer way than I ever managed.