Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

[Corban]

Well said, I think the pastor from Colombus Bible Church explained well what "Led Captivity Captive" really meant in Ephesians, by linking it to Revelations 13

.....

For me, I believe David, like all the OT saints are in Paradise now, or Abraham's bosom, that part on Earth that is separated from Hades, as Jesus explained in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus

Amen. Our Lord Jesus says on the cross that He will be in Paradise with the thief. But Psalm 16:10 says that His SOUL was not left in Hades. This is quoted in Acts 2 by Peter and Luke, under inspiration, records it. Thus, Hades is the place of the SOULS of dead men, and it has either TWO compartments, or a sub-compartment. Until our Lord Jesus descended to Hades, this compartment was called Abraham's Bosom. From the moment our Lord Jesus graced this place with His presence, it is called Paradise.

In 2nd Corinthians 12: 1-4 the translators took a liberty that was unwarranted, yet understandable. The Greek word "harpazo" means; "caught AWAY". It means the sudden snatching away of an object. It indicates MOVEMENT but NOT DIRECTION. The direction must either be left out, or established by the context. So, in Acts 8:39 it is correctly rendered "caught away" and the direction was horizontal to Azotus. Here is Young's Literal rendering in our said scripture in 2nd Corinthians 12,

1 "To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
3 and I have known such a man--whether in the body, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known, --
4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak."

Paul was "caught AWAY" to the third heaven. "UP" is not in the text but is reasonable because heaven is UP. But then verse 3 starts with the conjunction "AND" - which is "kai" in the Greek. The conjunction "and", the language specialists tell us, is cumulative, copulative and sequential. That is, it adds something, it joins something and it establishes a sequence. "The soldier pushed the detonator and the fuse lit the charge and there was an explosion." Here we have "and" (i) showing three different things, (ii) joining the fuse and the charge, and joining the pushed detonator with the explosion, and (iii) a sequence of pushing, lighting and exploding. The "AND" at the beginning of verse 3 ADDS a journey and implies a sequence. PAUL DID TWO JOURNEYS IN THESE VERSES!

And if you insert the literal meaning of "harpazo", there is no excuse to write "caught UP". Our Lord Jesus "descended" to the heart of the earth to Paradise, and NO SCRIPTURE has indicated anything else. Based on the Bible and grammar, Paul did TWO journeys. One upward to the third heaven and one DOWN to Paradise in Hades. And as a small confirmation, Paul does not say that the revelation of heaven was in any way restricted, but he was forbidden to speak of Hades. God has freely talked of heaven in the Bible, but He has put up a shield between the living and the dead. Necromancing invoked the death penalty under Moses - as king Saul found out, and except for Luke 15 there is a virtual silence about Hades.

• Hades is not translated "unseen" for nothing
• Hades is the place of the SOULS of dead men till they RISE
• Hades has at least two compartments - one of torment and one of "comfort"
• Inmates of Hades can see each other, talk across the divide, feel, think and talk
• Paradise has not moved from Hades. That is Roman Catholic mythology
• There is a "Paradise" in heaven. It is called "the Paradise of God". The one in Hades is called the Paradise of MEN. There is no Paradise recorded on earth.

 

[Corban]

@ Coban "
" 1 There is no record of a dead man ever going to heaven in the whole Bible - only live men
Dead men are unclean - how could they appear before God in heaven
Dead men are naked - how can they appear naked before God?"

Lol adam did

Also,if resurrected,and raptured,as was Jesus,they are not dead men going to heaven.

Agreed on both points. But what do you think? By the time God arrived on the scene, Adam was not naked. He was clothed with fig-leaves. Why do you think that Adam said he was naked when he wasn't? It is a crucial point throughout the Bible.

 

[Corban]

David being dead and buried is another hint God left to help us understand that the resurrection has nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies.

How so? Every record of resurrection in the Bible, starting with our Lord Jesus, included a body. Especially so in 1st Corinthians 15:35-38 ans 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3. Even the unbeliever, resurrected at the White Throne "stands" before Christ, and we will look at their "carcasses" in Isaiah 66:24.

 

[KJV1611]

How so? Every record of resurrection in the Bible, starting with our Lord Jesus, included a body. Especially so in 1st Corinthians 15:35-38 ans 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3. Even the unbeliever, resurrected at the White Throne "stands" before Christ, and we will look at their "carcasses" in Isaiah 66:24.

I agree that God does raise dead earthly bodies but the point I'm trying to get people to see is that the "IT" that gets resurrected in The Resurrection isn't a dead body. Take a look at these verses and answer the question - what is "IT"? "IT" is not our dead earthly bodies.

These verses are KEY to understanding the resurrection.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[Corban]

I agree that God does raise dead earthly bodies but the point I'm trying to get people to see is that the "IT" that gets resurrected in The Resurrection isn't a dead body. Take a look at these verses and answer the question - what is "IT"? "IT" is not our dead earthly bodies.

These verses are KEY to understanding the resurrection.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I will consider your view, but the above verses seem to show the opposite. The "IT" in verses 42, 43 & 44 are modified by the "the DEAD". By implication we could write it like this;

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. THE DEAD is sown in corruption; THE DEAD is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 THE DEAD is sown in dishonour; THE DEAD is raised in glory: THE DEAD is sown in weakness; THE DEAD is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 THE DEAD is sown a natural body; THE DEAD is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body (WHICH DIES AND IS RAISED) a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

But if our Lord Jesus has preeminence in all things (Col.1:18), and the Firstborn of the dead (Col.1:18), then any resurrection must be modeled on His. If somebody does it differently they gain preeminence. So Christ's resurrection sets the base for all resurrection. And in His resurrection is evident that it was His dead body He received in resurrection. His body did not see corruption, and it had its wounds. And these wounds remain, for, at His coming from the clouds, the Israelites will see "Him whom they PIERCED".

 

[KJV1611]

I will consider your view, but the above verses seem to show the opposite. The "IT" in verses 42, 43 & 44 are modified by the "the DEAD". By implication we could write it like this;

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. THE DEAD is sown in corruption; THE DEAD is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 THE DEAD is sown in dishonour; THE DEAD is raised in glory: THE DEAD is sown in weakness; THE DEAD is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 THE DEAD is sown a natural body; THE DEAD is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body (WHICH DIES AND IS RAISED) a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

But if our Lord Jesus has preeminence in all things (Col.1:18), and the Firstborn of the dead (Col.1:18), then any resurrection must be modeled on His. If somebody does it differently they gain preeminence. So Christ's resurrection sets the base for all resurrection. And in His resurrection is evident that it was His dead body He received in resurrection. His body did not see corruption, and it had its wounds. And these wounds remain, for, at His coming from the clouds, the Israelites will see "Him whom they PIERCED".

Paul tells us in verse 45 that "it" is a living soul. All of us are living souls placed in an corrupt earthly body to experience life on earth.'

 

[Corban]

Paul tells us in verse 45 that "it" is a living soul. All of us are living souls placed in an corrupt earthly body to experience life on earth.'

The "living SOUL" is Adam, not the "IT" of the previous verses. Notice the word "BECAME". That is, it was not in existence, but as a result of something, it BECAME .... . The SOUL is unique in man. God is a Spirit with a soul (Jn.4:24). But man is a SOUL with a spirit. The man IS the soul. After Genesis 2:7, man is always referred to as a SOUL;

Genesis 12:5; "And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came."

Acts 2:41; "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

 

[KJV1611]

The "living SOUL" is Adam, not the "IT" of the previous verses. Notice the word "BECAME". That is, it was not in existence, but as a result of something, it BECAME .... . The SOUL is unique in man. God is a Spirit with a soul (Jn.4:24). But man is a SOUL with a spirit. The man IS the soul. After Genesis 2:7, man is always referred to as a SOUL;

Genesis 12:5; "And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came."

Acts 2:41; "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

I think we agree that it's "bare grain" that gets sown in corruption.
How is "the dead" representing "bare grain"?
And what is the corruption that the dead is sown into?

 

[Absolutely]

Agreed on both points. But what do you think? By the time God arrived on the scene, Adam was not naked. He was clothed with fig-leaves. Why do you think that Adam said he was naked when he wasn't? It is a crucial point throughout the Bible.

Adam WAS NAKED,and walked with God in the evenings naked.
The clothing was AFTER the fall/sin/temptation.

The reason for clothing = shame. Shame entered them both.

 

[luigi]

While it easy for people here in the U.S., a relatively Christian nation, to believe in a rapture before they experience any sort of tribulation; what does one say to the many other Christians in nations that are not predominantly Christian, where they are currently experiencing persecutions and death? DON'T WORRY YOUR RAPTURE IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

While it easy for people here in the U.S., a relatively Christian nation, to believe in a rapture before they experience any sort of tribulation; what does one say to the many other Christians in nations that are not predominantly Christian, where they are currently experiencing persecutions and death? DON'T WORRY YOUR RAPTURE IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER!

"The Church which is His body" (of which we are "members") has experienced "persecutions and tribulations" ever since its coming into existence in the first century (see 2Th1:4, for example) [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... we are not awaiting the future, specific, limited time-period (we commonly call "the tribulation period" [aka the '70th Week' of Daniel--'7-yrs']) in order to experience it!


(Nor is that its purpose. )



[2Tim3:12 - "Yea, and all that will live godly IN Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION." (that is, WHILE we exist here on this earth! [for some 2000 yrs!])... and other like passages]

 

[Absolutely]

While it easy for people here in the U.S., a relatively Christian nation, to believe in a rapture before they experience any sort of tribulation; what does one say to the many other Christians in nations that are not predominantly Christian, where they are currently experiencing persecutions and death? DON'T WORRY YOUR RAPTURE IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER!

While it easy for people here in the U.S., a relatively Christian nation, to believe in a rapture before they experience any sort of tribulation; what does one say to the many other Christians in nations that are not predominantly Christian, where they are currently experiencing persecutions and death? DON'T WORRY YOUR RAPTURE IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER!

You can tell it to Lot,Noah,and the baby Jesus when you get to heaven.

All were miraculously delivered pretrib.

Then all the saints that died in america. Most never saw mass tribulation.

Your need for pain is not biblical.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2Th1:4 [to the Thessalonians in the first century, Paul acknowledges...]- "4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure [present tense]"



[note: this is one of the primary things ^ that made it PERFECTLY REASONABLE for them to be (wrongly) convinced/persuaded that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (by the false conveyors) 2Th2:2--*because* of the "persecutions and tribulations" they were PRESENTLY and ONGOINGLY experiencing]

 

[luigi]

"The Church which is His body" (of which we are "members") has experienced "persecutions and tribulations" ever since its coming into existence in the first century (see 2Th1:4, for example) [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... we are not awaiting the future, specific, limited time-period (we commonly call "the tribulation period" [aka the '70th Week' of Daniel--'7-yrs']) in order to experience it!


(Nor is that its purpose. )



[2Tim3:12 - "Yea, and all that will live godly IN Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION." (that is, WHILE we exist here on this earth! [for some 2000 yrs!])... and other like passages]

While it is true that the true church has experienced persecutions and tribulations from its coming into existence; in the last few years these persecutions and tribulations and murders have been increasing throughout the world. So once again where is these Christians rapture? Lucky we're not in those nations, Huh?

 

[luigi]

You can tell it to Lot,Noah,and the baby Jesus when you get to heaven.

All were miraculously delivered pretrib.

Then all the saints that died in america. Most never saw mass tribulation.

Your need for pain is not biblical.

I read in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 when the 10 horned beast, along with the little horn whose mouth speaks great things (a.k.a., the Antichrist) comes around that he will overcome and wear out the saints. All deaths throughout the world, including the saints are attributed to Babylon the great which rides/directs the beasts systems policies (Revelation 18:24). How then is there a rapture pretribulation if the beasts system is killing the saints?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[luigi]

2Th1:4 [to the Thessalonians in the first century, Paul acknowledges...]- "4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure [present tense]"



[note: this is one of the primary things ^ that made it PERFECTLY REASONABLE for them to be (wrongly) convinced/persuaded that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (by the false conveyors) 2Th2:2--*because* of the "persecutions and tribulations" they were PRESENTLY and ONGOINGLY experiencing]

It does look to me that the saints during the beast and Antichrist's reign in Revelation 13:10 and 14:12-13 are experiencing some extreme tribulation.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It does look to me that the saints during the beast and Antichrist's reign in Revelation 13:10 and 14:12-13 are experiencing some extreme tribulation.

No one is denying that there will indeed exist "saints" on the earth IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs (I do not say "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--all those save "in this present age [singular]")... The ones you point out are those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19.

In fact, our Rapture event will be a PRIMARY impetus that turns Israel to their Messiah (Jesus Christ)!

...and it is THEY (IN/DURING/WITHIN) the trib years who will be DOING the "INVITING" (to "the earthly MK age/wedding FEAST/SUPPER" that will [at that time] be very near, to be commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347; see also Matt8:11 and parallel]... for one example of tons of Scripture on that Subject/point-in-time of the chronology...); The particular "INVITATION"=Matt24:14[/26:13] ...[/Rev7:9 its results, among other passages such as Matt25:31-34 Sheep/the righteous [whereas vv.40,45 are the INVITERS, not the ones BEING judged/separated in that context], Rev19:9 "those [plural] having been INVITED to..." (distinct from v.7!), etc etc]... all of this FOLLOWS our Rapture (which [Rapture] takes place before Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by opening the FIRST SEAL [<--parallel other related passages I've listed out in the past])

 

[Corban]

I think we agree that it's "bare grain" that gets sown in corruption.
How is "the dead" representing "bare grain"?
And what is the corruption that the dead is sown into?

I will answer in reverse to simplify.

The wording is "sown IN corruption". It could also be rendered, "sown IN THE STATE of corruption". It means that the seed is in a condition of corruption when it is planted. "Raised IN incorruption" means that it went to death a corrupt seed, BUT is raised in A STATE of incorruption. This is best seen by the LIVING who see no death and resurrection in 1st Corinthians 15:51-55. They, while alive, because of their STATE of corruption, must be CHANGED.

The bare grain is a metaphor for our bodies in this life. It then falls into the earth, dies, is watered and fed by the nourishment of the soil, and comes up in a different form - yet the organic makeup is still the same. When a seed falls into the ground and its shell is destroyed in death, NOTHING must be added to the genetic make up of the seed to produce more of itself. The only thing we add is food - nourishment.

 

[luigi]

No one is denying that there will indeed exist "saints" on the earth IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs (I do not say "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--all those save "in this present age [singular]")... The ones you point out are those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19.

In fact, our Rapture event will be a PRIMARY impetus that turns Israel to their Messiah (Jesus Christ)!

...and it is THEY (IN/DURING/WITHIN) the trib years who will be DOING the "INVITING" (to "the earthly MK age/wedding FEAST/SUPPER" that will [at that time] be very near, to be commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347; see also Matt8:11 and parallel]... for one example of tons of Scripture on that Subject/point-in-time of the chronology...); The particular "INVITATION"=Matt24:14[/26:13] ...[/Rev7:9 its results, among other passages such as Matt25:31-34 Sheep/the righteous [whereas vv.40,45 are the INVITERS, not the ones BEING judged/separated in that context], Rev19:9 "those [plural] having been INVITED to..." (distinct from v.7!), etc etc]... all of this FOLLOWS our Rapture

Could you show me scriptures to confirm your claims that there will first be a rapture of the church that is then followed by a new bunch of believers coming in later when there are no believers to guide and instruct anyone?
It seems counterintuitive to me that someone is going to come to believe have faith in Christ when there is no one of faith left on earth to instruct anyone. Will tough times make them think, "Hey maybe I should get on board with all those people who had earlier flown away?" I do not see any scriptures that point to any scenario like this.

 

[luigi]

While it easy for people here in the U.S., a relatively Christian nation, to believe in a rapture before they experience any sort of tribulation; what does one say to the many other Christians in nations that are not predominantly Christian, where they are currently experiencing persecutions and death? DON'T WORRY YOUR RAPTURE IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER!

Approximately up to 50 million Americans, of which over half are Christians, now do not have enough to eat. So while this hunger may not be the more dire tribulations and executions Christians are experiencing in other nations, it nevertheless does seem to qualify as a tribulation if you are hungry and without enough to feed your family. So again, where is the rapture for those many millions of U.S. Christians who are currently experiencing hunger?