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As far as scripture goes, Moses has not been resurrected immortal and glorified either. Now, he and Elijah did appear with the Lord when He was transfigured, but that was not in his immortal and glorified body. Regarding this issue, consider what the angel said to Daniel:
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Go on your way, Daniel,” he replied, “for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.
11And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
"But as for you, go on your way until the end. You will rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
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The OT saints, including Moses, Abraham, David, etc., will resurrect at the end of the age.
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Go on your way, Daniel,” he replied, “for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.
11And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
"But as for you, go on your way until the end. You will rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
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The OT saints, including Moses, Abraham, David, etc., will resurrect at the end of the age.
Hello Lafftur!
First of all, it is not my intention to rip what you said to shreds, but to make the truth known to you based on scripture.
In order to come to a conclusion on any given Biblical subject, we must address all of the related scriptures. That said, let's look at the scripture which establishes the seven years:
"[He] will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' [he] will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple [he] will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
According to the scripture, the seven year period is seven consecutive years. It is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven years. That said, there is only one person mentioned in the scripture, not two. The 'He' who confirms the seven year covenant, is the same 'he' who puts an end to the sacrifice and offering and the same 'he' who sets up the abomination set up. Based on this alone, you cannot have Jesus completing the first 3 1/2 years and then at a future time have the antichrist completing the second 3 1/2 years.
In addition, no seven year covenant has been made and no abomination has been set up from the time Jesus quoted Daniel till the destruction of the temple. Therefore, it is still a future event, because God's word must be fulfilled.
In addition to that, the seven year period is the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. That said, since God's wrath takes place during the entire seven year period, then the believer in Christ must be removed from the earth prior to said wrath. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
God's wrath is not made up of only the vials. But is made up of the seals, trumpets and vial judgments. Here is the scripture:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, the vial judgments are treated as a unit. It also states that they are the "seven last plagues" which means that there would have to be other wrath prior to the vials. If I tell you that I was last in line to buy my concert tickets, it would mean that there were other people ahead of me. If something was last, then something had to come before it. It is the same here. By saying "the seven last plagues, because with them God's wrath is completed," would infer that other wrath came before them. Again, if the seven bowls complete God's wrath, then it means that other wrath will have taken place before them.
As previously stated, believers cannot and will not be exposed to God's wrath and therefore, we cannot be experiencing it right now or ever. Not only that, but God's coming wrath is going to be unprecedented. For regarding it, Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation that the world has never seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. That said, the world has not experienced anything even close to these events.
Once again, we have consult the word of God in order to come to any right conclusions. Therefore, let's look at the scripture regarding the gathering of the church aka rapture:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
The word 'harpazo' translated as 'caught up,' is defined as a snatching away, force suddenly exercised, a catching up. It is the same word used when Philip was caught away from the Eunuch and found in another city. And is the same word used when Paul said that he was caught up to the third heaven. It is also the same word used when the Male Child of Revelation 12 is caught up to God and His throne.
According to the scripture, the dead will be resurrected first, then those believers who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At that point, the entire church from beginning to end will meet in the air. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
Therefore, the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed are part of the same event, with the dead rising first and then the living being changed and caught up.
All that said, we have not yet been caught up (raptured), because it would mean that we would have transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies and that we would have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air and would have been taken back to heaven for the Bema seat judgment and to attend the wedding of the Lamb. Obviously, neither of these has taken place.
If you would like to better understand the details of these events, the why's and how comes, I would be happy to go over them with you.
First of all, it is not my intention to rip what you said to shreds, but to make the truth known to you based on scripture.
In order to come to a conclusion on any given Biblical subject, we must address all of the related scriptures. That said, let's look at the scripture which establishes the seven years:
"[He] will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' [he] will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple [he] will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
According to the scripture, the seven year period is seven consecutive years. It is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven years. That said, there is only one person mentioned in the scripture, not two. The 'He' who confirms the seven year covenant, is the same 'he' who puts an end to the sacrifice and offering and the same 'he' who sets up the abomination set up. Based on this alone, you cannot have Jesus completing the first 3 1/2 years and then at a future time have the antichrist completing the second 3 1/2 years.
In addition, no seven year covenant has been made and no abomination has been set up from the time Jesus quoted Daniel till the destruction of the temple. Therefore, it is still a future event, because God's word must be fulfilled.
In addition to that, the seven year period is the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. That said, since God's wrath takes place during the entire seven year period, then the believer in Christ must be removed from the earth prior to said wrath. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
God's wrath is not made up of only the vials. But is made up of the seals, trumpets and vial judgments. Here is the scripture:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, the vial judgments are treated as a unit. It also states that they are the "seven last plagues" which means that there would have to be other wrath prior to the vials. If I tell you that I was last in line to buy my concert tickets, it would mean that there were other people ahead of me. If something was last, then something had to come before it. It is the same here. By saying "the seven last plagues, because with them God's wrath is completed," would infer that other wrath came before them. Again, if the seven bowls complete God's wrath, then it means that other wrath will have taken place before them.
As previously stated, believers cannot and will not be exposed to God's wrath and therefore, we cannot be experiencing it right now or ever. Not only that, but God's coming wrath is going to be unprecedented. For regarding it, Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation that the world has never seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. That said, the world has not experienced anything even close to these events.
Once again, we have consult the word of God in order to come to any right conclusions. Therefore, let's look at the scripture regarding the gathering of the church aka rapture:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
The word 'harpazo' translated as 'caught up,' is defined as a snatching away, force suddenly exercised, a catching up. It is the same word used when Philip was caught away from the Eunuch and found in another city. And is the same word used when Paul said that he was caught up to the third heaven. It is also the same word used when the Male Child of Revelation 12 is caught up to God and His throne.
According to the scripture, the dead will be resurrected first, then those believers who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At that point, the entire church from beginning to end will meet in the air. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
Therefore, the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed are part of the same event, with the dead rising first and then the living being changed and caught up.
All that said, we have not yet been caught up (raptured), because it would mean that we would have transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies and that we would have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air and would have been taken back to heaven for the Bema seat judgment and to attend the wedding of the Lamb. Obviously, neither of these has taken place.
If you would like to better understand the details of these events, the why's and how comes, I would be happy to go over them with you.
Yes, as I stated in the previous post, Moses did appear on the mount of transfiguration. However, the only person who has been resurrected immortal and glorified so far is Jesus. The church resurrecting immortal and glorified, is next. Moses appeared in some other form other than in his immortal and glorified resurrected body.
"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
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No. There is no longer anyone in the place where Abraham and Lazarus were. For the scripture states that now, to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord. And to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. And just fyi, Abraham's Bosom is not the proper name for that place. What the scripture actually says is that Lazarus was taken to Abraham's side. The name of the place where they were is called in the Hebrew as Sheol and Hades in the Greek. According to the context, Hades was divided by a great chasm, with one side being a place of comfort and the other a place of torment in flame. Those spirits in the comfort place of Hades, I believe have been relocated to heaven. However, those who have died in their sins throughout all of history, continue to pour into the area of torment and flame. At the end of the millennial kingdom, at the great white throne judgment, the spirits of those who have been accumulating in Hades will be released and will receive resurrected bodies and will be held accountable for every sin they ever committed. After that, when their names are not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire.
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Elijah is not in heaven now, at least not in the 3rd heaven. He went up to the 1st heaven and came back down again.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
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Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
This is post cross, so the commonly taught doctrine that, "After the cross, Jesus went to Paradise to bring all the OT saints into heaven, where they are found now" is not scriptural.
This is post cross, so the commonly taught doctrine that, "After the cross, Jesus went to Paradise to bring all the OT saints into heaven, where they are found now" is not scriptural.
You can reject it if you like, but it is the truth. Moses, like the rest of the OT saints, has yet to be resurrected in his immortal and glorified body. Jesus did the same thing when he and the two angels appeared to Abraham as they were on their way to Sodom. Jesus has not yet come in the flesh, but He appeared to Abraham in a physical body. Remember, "but each in his own turn, Jesus the first fruits, then at His coming, those who belong to Him. Those who belong to him at His coming, would the gathering of the church
See, you rejected this and yet the scripture is right there in front of you to read. It is therefore not me that you are rejecting, but the scripture. Can you read and discern?
Christ first, then at His coming, those who belong to him. That would not include Moses. The OT saints of Israel are resurrected at a different time from the church.
Christ first, then at His coming, those who belong to him. That would not include Moses. The OT saints of Israel are resurrected at a different time from the church.
James said "For David is not ascended into the heavens" in response the following:
"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
meaning that he hasn't resurrected in his immortal and glorified body. However, his spirit is there waiting on the resurrection. He was demonstrating that the scripture was not talking about himself, but was a prophecy of Christ.
You guys need to understand that there is a difference between the spirit departing to be in the presence of the Lord, vs. the resurrection of the body. You don't seem to understand the difference.
All of the spirits of the OT saints, as well as spirits of all who have died in the church, are in heaven. At some point and at different times, those who died in the church will be resurrected immortal and glorified. The same is true for the OT saints of Israel. No one from either group has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies, period!
"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
meaning that he hasn't resurrected in his immortal and glorified body. However, his spirit is there waiting on the resurrection. He was demonstrating that the scripture was not talking about himself, but was a prophecy of Christ.
You guys need to understand that there is a difference between the spirit departing to be in the presence of the Lord, vs. the resurrection of the body. You don't seem to understand the difference.
All of the spirits of the OT saints, as well as spirits of all who have died in the church, are in heaven. At some point and at different times, those who died in the church will be resurrected immortal and glorified. The same is true for the OT saints of Israel. No one from either group has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies, period!