Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

[Guojing]

James said "For David is not ascended into the heavens" in response the following:

"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

meaning that he hasn't resurrected in his immortal and glorified body. However, his spirit is there waiting on the resurrection. He was demonstrating that the scripture was not talking about himself, but was a prophecy of Christ.

You guys need to understand that there is a difference between the spirit departing to be in the presence of the Lord, vs. the resurrection of the body. You don't seem to understand the difference.

All of the spirits of the OT saints, as well as spirits of all who have died in the church, are in heaven. At some point and at different times, those who died in the church will be resurrected immortal and glorified. The same is true for the OT saints of Israel. No one from either group has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies, period!

Our true identity is our spirit, our bodies is just a "house" for the spirit.

So when it is said that no one is in heaven, or that David is not in heaven, in those verses, they are obviously not referring to the physical bodies.

All the OT saints are in Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom now, waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ for Israel.

 

[Lafftur]

Pardon me Lafftur, I know you are busy. If you have time...help me understand more, please... how did you come to the conclusion that we are in midtrib? I'd love more understanding. I am one of those who are inquiring...

CharliRenee,

Pre-Trib is over. When Jesus Christ began His public ministry the Tribulation began and lasted only 3 1/2 years.

Currently, we are Mid-Trib waiting for the anti-Christ to show up because he also gets 3 1/2 years on the Earth just like Jesus.

The 7 years of Tribulation is NOT 7 years CONSECUTIVELY.

Jesus Christ is REAL POWER OF GOD.

Anti-Christ is FAKE POWER OF GOD.

Meaning.....Jesus Christ is “God with us.” The anti-Christ is “Satan with us.”

See the difference?!!!

 

[Lafftur]

CharliRenee,

Pre-Trib is over. When Jesus Christ began His public ministry the Tribulation began and lasted only 3 1/2 years.

Currently, we are Mid-Trib waiting for the anti-Christ to show up because he also gets 3 1/2 years on the Earth just like Jesus.

The 7 years of Tribulation is NOT 7 years CONSECUTIVELY.

Jesus Christ is REAL POWER OF GOD.

Anti-Christ is FAKE POWER OF GOD.

Meaning.....Jesus Christ is “God with us.” The anti-Christ is “Satan with us.”

See the difference?!!!

Look at what Jesus said to the weeping women as He was going to the cross to die......

And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Luke 23:26-31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 23:26-31&version=KJV

A lot of people to this day cannot understand what Jesus was saying....but, if you have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying....you will know Jesus is speaking of His 3 1/2 years as the green tree and Satan’s (anti-Christ) 3 1/2 years as a dry tree.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Pre-Trib is over. When Jesus Christ began His public ministry the Tribulation began and lasted only 3 1/2 years.

If this were true we would all be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

 

[KJV1611]

No. You and I both know that you changed my "IN" into "INTO". There is a vast difference between;
"A seed releases its life IN death", and .... "A seed is planted INTO soil."

This was your initial thesis. You maintained that our bodies are planted INTO corruption. I challenged it with our bodies are planted IN corruption.

But brother, we have gone back and forth about resurrection and done no service to a "Pre-Tribulation Rapture". We have effectively derailed the thread. I repent.

Just for the record, my initial thesis was that our SOULS are planted into this CORRUPT body of death. Peace.

 

[Absolutely]

James said "For David is not ascended into the heavens" in response the following:

"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

meaning that he hasn't resurrected in his immortal and glorified body. However, his spirit is there waiting on the resurrection. He was demonstrating that the scripture was not talking about himself, but was a prophecy of Christ.

You guys need to understand that there is a difference between the spirit departing to be in the presence of the Lord, vs. the resurrection of the body. You don't seem to understand the difference.

All of the spirits of the OT saints, as well as spirits of all who have died in the church, are in heaven. At some point and at different times, those who died in the church will be resurrected immortal and glorified. The same is true for the OT saints of Israel. No one from either group has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies, period!

No
Because they were resurrected and did ascend to heaven.

Thst is why Jesus is called firstfruits.
He along with the patriarchs.
He ,and they,are firstfruits of the resurrection in christ.

I came across this yesterday in my am bible study;
1 cor 15
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1) there is NO PROVISION for the patriarchs. Only the dead in Christ are raised at the general resurrection.
(That along with Jesus preaching the gospel to,and those dead patriarchs seen walking on earth is compelling)
2) vs 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
See that? Christ is firstfruits over those patriarchs in paradise risen from the dead.
They are in heaven,in christ,and in their glorified bodies.

Jesus "took captivity captive"
Means he took those in paradise to heaven.

 

[KJV1611]

No
Because they were resurrected and did ascend to heaven.

Thst is why Jesus is called firstfruits.
He along with the patriarchs.
He ,and they,are firstfruits of the resurrection in christ.

I came across this yesterday in my am bible study;
1 cor 15
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1) there is NO PROVISION for the patriarchs. Only the dead in Christ are raised at the general resurrection.
(That along with Jesus preaching the gospel to,and those dead patriarchs seen walking on earth is compelling)
2) vs 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
See that? Christ is firstfruits over those patriarchs in paradise risen from the dead.
They are in heaven,in christ,and in their glorified bodies.

Jesus "took captivity captive"
Means he took those in paradise to heaven.

The patriarchs WERE the dead in Christ.

 

[Absolutely]

Look at what Jesus said to the weeping women as He was going to the cross to die......

And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Luke 23:26-31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 23:26-31&version=KJV

A lot of people to this day cannot understand what Jesus was saying....but, if you have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying....you will know Jesus is speaking of His 3 1/2 years as the green tree and Satan’s (anti-Christ) 3 1/2 years as a dry tree.

Early on in the 7 yr trib the mark is established. And we see the innumerable number in heaven. Martyred.
The mark happens early on in the gt.
It says ALL TAKE THE MARK.

There is nothing left to rapture by mid trib.

But beyond that the ac rules for 7 years,not 3.5.
He enters on a white horse and brings in the other horsemen.
The ac is "ANTI CHRIST" His first business is to destroy the church.....and he does.
The bible says so.

 

[Absolutely]

CharliRenee,

Pre-Trib is over. When Jesus Christ began His public ministry the Tribulation began and lasted only 3 1/2 years.

Currently, we are Mid-Trib waiting for the anti-Christ to show up because he also gets 3 1/2 years on the Earth just like Jesus.

The 7 years of Tribulation is NOT 7 years CONSECUTIVELY.

Jesus Christ is REAL POWER OF GOD.

Anti-Christ is FAKE POWER OF GOD.

Meaning.....Jesus Christ is “God with us.” The anti-Christ is “Satan with us.”

See the difference?!!!

No.
The ac is in power WAY BEFORE mid trib.
He martyrs millions. Beheads them.
He is in power 7 years.
His entry will be in power and bloody.....because of the mark.

The mark is his first obcession.

 

[Absolutely]

Look at what Jesus said to the weeping women as He was going to the cross to die......

And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Luke 23:26-31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 23:26-31&version=KJV

A lot of people to this day cannot understand what Jesus was saying....but, if you have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying....you will know Jesus is speaking of His 3 1/2 years as the green tree and Satan’s (anti-Christ) 3 1/2 years as a dry tree.

No
Green tree is Jesus with them.
Dry tree is Jesus gone back to heaven.

The 7 yr trib is Jacob's trouble.
Israel's trouble.

The church is out of the way.first the rapture,then the martyrs of the ac.

All JESUS'S words on the rapture are peacetime setting and pretrib/Judgement.

You should not say only you have the direction of the Holy Spirit.
You can really make yourself look foolish.

In a forum. You will need the harmony of the word.

To take a huge section of verses off the table is disaster.

 

[Absolutely]

The patriarchs WERE the dead in Christ.

None of them were in Christ.
No cross / savior was ever in
Their experience.
All animal sacrifice pointed to a future God man sacrifice.
They died being justified by faith. They recieved the Gospel AFTER the cross.

 

[KJV1611]

None of them were in Christ.
No cross / savior was ever in
Their experience.
All animal sacrifice pointed to a future God man sacrifice.
They died being justified by faith. They recieved the Gospel AFTER the cross.

The spirit of Christ was in them, how could they not be in Christ?

 

[Corban]

Just for the record, my initial thesis was that our SOULS are planted into this CORRUPT body of death. Peace.

Yes - in posting # 186. But the following discussion was about your posting # 188 - last sentence. Here it is, quote;

I think we agree that it's "bare grain" that gets sown in corruption.
How is "the dead" representing "bare grain"?
And what is the corruption that the dead is sown into?

See your use of the word "IN" in the first sentence - "sown IN corruption". But then in the third sentence you change "IN" into "INTO". Look, we've thrashed this matter and we're not really contributing to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture claim. I'm happy to walk away from the "ins" and the "intos".

But I've enjoyed the exchange. I'd never hear of your way of understanding this point. So you made me think.

Go well bro.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes - in posting # 186. But the following discussion was about your posting # 188 - last sentence. Here it is, quote;



See your use of the word "IN" in the first sentence - "sown IN corruption". But then in the third sentence you change "IN" into "INTO". Look, we've thrashed this matter and we're not really contributing to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture claim. I'm happy to walk away from the "ins" and the "intos".

But I've enjoyed the exchange. I'd never hear of your way of understanding this point. So you made me think.

Go well bro.

No worries, I'm just a seed planter and I'm glad it made you think.

 

[KJV1611]

I would just like to say to everyone on this thread, out of love for God's people, if you don't understand the resurrection, you have a 0% chance of understanding what the rapture is nor when it happens.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Acts 2 -

29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

 

[KJV1611]

^ Acts 2 -

29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

I have no doubt that David was still in his tomb because the resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Luke 24 -

36 While they were describing these events, Jesus Himself stood among them and said, “Peace be with you. 37 But they were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a spirit.

38 “Why are you troubled, Jesus asked, “and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see— for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

41 While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat? 42 So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and He took it and ate it in front of them.

44 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

46 And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

 

[laymen]

None of them are assumptions. Did you not read the scriptures that I provided regarding this?

It would be an assumption for you to say that Moses or any of the other OT saints had already resurrected immortal and glorified. Please show me the scriptures that support your claim.

I did not make this clam soooo all I did was ask question.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have no doubt that David was still in his tomb because the resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies.

Then we can suppose the resurrection has something to do with levitation perhaps?

The resurrection of Christ itself disproves your theory. But what do facts matter to those who prefer fantasies?

resurrection
noun
res·ur·rec·tion | \ ˌre-zə-ˈrek-shən

\
Definition of resurrection

1 a capitalized : the rising of Christ from the dead
b often capitalized : the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment
c: the state of one risen from the dead