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Hi!
Scripture says God so loved the world He gave His Son.
Not so He could love the world, but because He does love the world.
Are all saved? No. Scripture is clear on that.
Why? Because Christ is life. There is no life apart from Him. And we become JOINED with Him (eternal Life) by dying and being reborn in Him.
He is the transition (high priest) that takes the Holy of Holies into us. And us in Him. It's beautiful in its simplicity, but also profoundness.
C.
Scripture says God so loved the world He gave His Son.
Not so He could love the world, but because He does love the world.
Are all saved? No. Scripture is clear on that.
Why? Because Christ is life. There is no life apart from Him. And we become JOINED with Him (eternal Life) by dying and being reborn in Him.
He is the transition (high priest) that takes the Holy of Holies into us. And us in Him. It's beautiful in its simplicity, but also profoundness.
C.
that's not what she means. 
if Christ paid for ALL sin, God's justice would demand ALL people would be saved. simples.
if Christ paid for ALL sin, God's justice would demand ALL people would be saved. simples.
This is incorrect.
The fine point of distinction is that proving the will of God comes from renewing of the mind. Not being saved by renewing of the mind. I'm glad you posted this because in no way do I believe this or know any grace teachers who do either. But if so, this is against Scripture. Fruit of the Spirit comes from us being joined with the Spirit of God. And salvation (or being joined with Him) comes from believing in our heart He is Lord and confessing with our mouth, then we die to our old selves and become a new creation in Christ.
C.
The fine point of distinction is that proving the will of God comes from renewing of the mind. Not being saved by renewing of the mind. I'm glad you posted this because in no way do I believe this or know any grace teachers who do either. But if so, this is against Scripture. Fruit of the Spirit comes from us being joined with the Spirit of God. And salvation (or being joined with Him) comes from believing in our heart He is Lord and confessing with our mouth, then we die to our old selves and become a new creation in Christ.
C.
Scripture does seem to say that we do have sinful flesh..I don't think the body itself is sinful...just what is in it..the sin is in the flesh ( flesh has 3 different meanings in scripture depending on the context it is used ) Jesus had a body and it wasn't sinful.
Romans 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
L
Got to head out but before going., I want to give the "other Lynn" something .....
((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))
I think if we were all locked in a room together JESUS would eventually be the focus and we would look past the personality issues we find so annoying in one another here and we would pray together and Jesus would be glorified in our fellowship together and many (((((((Hugs))))))) would be given freely and joyfully!
I'm just bypassing the locked in the room part and giving you hugs Lynn!!!!
((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))
I think if we were all locked in a room together JESUS would eventually be the focus and we would look past the personality issues we find so annoying in one another here and we would pray together and Jesus would be glorified in our fellowship together and many (((((((Hugs))))))) would be given freely and joyfully!
I'm just bypassing the locked in the room part and giving you hugs Lynn!!!!
I said this a few times before and I will say it again..the natural mind of man cannot see the realities of the new creation in Christ. It will constantly be trying to refute the new inner man created in righteousness and holiness and it will be complete foolishness to it and "appear" to be gnostic. This is where they come up with having to "maintain" their salvation for going to be with the Lord.
One of the reasons gnostics were birthed is because of the truth the apostles were talking about in the new birth in Christ - the new man circumcised with the hand of God in separating the flesh from the inner man in Christ...aka the circumcision of Christ. The natural mind of man took over and created their own "reality" - apart from Christ.
This isn't even remotely close to true believers in Christ. Everything to do with the new creation is because we are "in Christ"..Paul talked about the true believer being in Christ in some form 140X times in his letters.
One of the reasons gnostics were birthed is because of the truth the apostles were talking about in the new birth in Christ - the new man circumcised with the hand of God in separating the flesh from the inner man in Christ...aka the circumcision of Christ. The natural mind of man took over and created their own "reality" - apart from Christ.
This isn't even remotely close to true believers in Christ. Everything to do with the new creation is because we are "in Christ"..Paul talked about the true believer being in Christ in some form 140X times in his letters.
You make excellent points let me deal with each in detail.
Scripture says the old man is dead. And new man is here. Not behavior. I just believe it. Why don't you?
I agree with you here, but I didn't say putting on the new man is an idea, I said it is renewing of the mind. Which is exactly what Scripture says. You're right though it does include putting on a new behavior. A behavior that flows out of who we are in Christ.
I have to be honest. When someone tells me a Scripture is wrongly translated to propel their own theology, I am extremely apprehensive of this approach. However, I agree that the spirit is not the only holy part of our triune being. Notice though that it is this Scripture itself that separates old man vs new man. Saying that our new man NOT our old man is created in true righteousness and holiness.
As far as godly piety? I don't see how this makes sense considering the context is about Christ. And Christ knew who He was. And it was the world (who said who do you think You are?) and it was Satan (who said If you really be the Son of God) it was those who questioned who He was, but Christ knew who He was. And this Scripture is referring to our new man made in His image.
This is an interesting statement. Let's see what Scripture says about what we are supposed to look at since your assertion here that seeing ourselves and understanding who we are is somehow against Scripture. And also somehow detracts from knowing Christ. Let's check the Book!
Let's look at this from Scripture:
1 Co 13:9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Notice a few things about this passage:
1. It compares us a child growing into a man.
2. It says we currently see in part and we prophesy in part (I could devote an entire post to this)
3. It compares our growing to looking in a Mirror.
4. It tells us that we shall know, as I have been fully known.
Let's just look at #4.
You shall know (grow in knowledge) and you are already fully known.
So back to your point. Scripture tells us that as we see Him, we see ourselves. And we see ourselves, we see Him. I struggled with this understanding for awhile until Holy Spirit showed me what "in Christ, by Christ, and through Christ" means. In Christ is not about behavior, it's pointing to our identity. It is pointing to our new creation reality in Him. We are now good trees we bear good fruit. His law is written on our heart and mind. We have been washed, justified, and glorified in Him. We just don't know it. Because we see in part. But as we grow into a man we shall begin to know ourselves as we are already fully known.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And just as we have born the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
Does this interpretation match with other Scripture? Yes. In fact one of the most critical Scriptures to understand.
You want to know the God's purpose in your life? I'll show you.
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
The purpose of God in your life. And everything in your life is working out for the good of it. Is to be conformed into the image of His Son.
1 John 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
You might be thinking, but does this include growing in UNDERSTANDING? Let's check the Book!
Now what I'm about to show you might seem a little crazy, which is great. But I'll show you what the true function of all the pastors, teachers, etc in your life is...
11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[SUP]c[/SUP] and teachers,[SUP]d[/SUP] 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[SUP]e[/SUP] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
This Scripture is referring to us in this present age. It shows us that the 5 fold was given so that each person will be equipped. UNTIL we ALL grow into the fullness and KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, into MATURE manhood.
Notice this is EXACTLY what Paul said in 1 Co 13. That we are growing up into mature men. No longer children, but growing into the fullness of Christ as His Body.
We grow up INTO Christ by understanding who we are in Him. That's why Paul continually, repeatedly, exhorts the believers saying look this is who you are in Christ! Do a word search on "in Christ, by Christ, and through Christ" and then try to work out with your natural mind what it means. It will make no sense to you until it is spiritually discerned by Holy Spirit. This is growing up from a child into maturity.
Notice I didn't say (nor does Scripture) people who don't understand who they are in Christ as not saved, they are children.
I don't think it can be anymore clearer than that.
C.
Scripture says the old man is dead. And new man is here. Not behavior. I just believe it. Why don't you?
I agree with you here, but I didn't say putting on the new man is an idea, I said it is renewing of the mind. Which is exactly what Scripture says. You're right though it does include putting on a new behavior. A behavior that flows out of who we are in Christ.
I have to be honest. When someone tells me a Scripture is wrongly translated to propel their own theology, I am extremely apprehensive of this approach. However, I agree that the spirit is not the only holy part of our triune being. Notice though that it is this Scripture itself that separates old man vs new man. Saying that our new man NOT our old man is created in true righteousness and holiness.
As far as godly piety? I don't see how this makes sense considering the context is about Christ. And Christ knew who He was. And it was the world (who said who do you think You are?) and it was Satan (who said If you really be the Son of God) it was those who questioned who He was, but Christ knew who He was. And this Scripture is referring to our new man made in His image.
This is an interesting statement. Let's see what Scripture says about what we are supposed to look at since your assertion here that seeing ourselves and understanding who we are is somehow against Scripture. And also somehow detracts from knowing Christ. Let's check the Book!
Let's look at this from Scripture:
1 Co 13:9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Notice a few things about this passage:
1. It compares us a child growing into a man.
2. It says we currently see in part and we prophesy in part (I could devote an entire post to this)
3. It compares our growing to looking in a Mirror.
4. It tells us that we shall know, as I have been fully known.
Let's just look at #4.
You shall know (grow in knowledge) and you are already fully known.
So back to your point. Scripture tells us that as we see Him, we see ourselves. And we see ourselves, we see Him. I struggled with this understanding for awhile until Holy Spirit showed me what "in Christ, by Christ, and through Christ" means. In Christ is not about behavior, it's pointing to our identity. It is pointing to our new creation reality in Him. We are now good trees we bear good fruit. His law is written on our heart and mind. We have been washed, justified, and glorified in Him. We just don't know it. Because we see in part. But as we grow into a man we shall begin to know ourselves as we are already fully known.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And just as we have born the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
Does this interpretation match with other Scripture? Yes. In fact one of the most critical Scriptures to understand.
You want to know the God's purpose in your life? I'll show you.
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
The purpose of God in your life. And everything in your life is working out for the good of it. Is to be conformed into the image of His Son.
1 John 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
You might be thinking, but does this include growing in UNDERSTANDING? Let's check the Book!
Now what I'm about to show you might seem a little crazy, which is great.
But I'll show you what the true function of all the pastors, teachers, etc in your life is...11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[SUP]c[/SUP] and teachers,[SUP]d[/SUP] 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[SUP]e[/SUP] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
This Scripture is referring to us in this present age. It shows us that the 5 fold was given so that each person will be equipped. UNTIL we ALL grow into the fullness and KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, into MATURE manhood.
Notice this is EXACTLY what Paul said in 1 Co 13. That we are growing up into mature men. No longer children, but growing into the fullness of Christ as His Body.
We grow up INTO Christ by understanding who we are in Him. That's why Paul continually, repeatedly, exhorts the believers saying look this is who you are in Christ! Do a word search on "in Christ, by Christ, and through Christ" and then try to work out with your natural mind what it means. It will make no sense to you until it is spiritually discerned by Holy Spirit. This is growing up from a child into maturity.
Notice I didn't say (nor does Scripture) people who don't understand who they are in Christ as not saved, they are children.
I don't think it can be anymore clearer than that.
C.
Budman - the truth is no. But if I do sin, I confess it and get right with God.
I expect to walk in righteousness and purity. Ofcourse it is possible I stumble and get confused.
My intention is to follow Jesus and listen to Him.
Are there sins I am unaware of? Maybe, but the Lord is faithful and just to bring it to mind
so I get right with Him.
Fundamentally I am acceptable to God through the work Christ has done in me.
Your argument appears to be this is impossible. But does not God love you, has he not redeemed you and done
a good work in you? Do you disbelieve Gods work and call that which He has cleansed and purified unholy and lost? This is the point Paul is making, after doing all needed you can rest and not sit in condemnation unless
you know of things you have not resolved.
The Lords prayer is to keep us from temptation, and the evil one.
This implies you are a child of God, you are redeemed and cleansed, so why make that which God calls pure, evil
and lost.
Now I do know depressed, self hating people, who always find fault with everything will never accept
Gods grace and His love. A version of this is to call that which is without fault faulty, that which is
acceptable, rejected.
The joke is though you claim to know Gods grace you know it without power and victory and continually
walk in self condemnation. If this condemnation is just, repent and confess your sin and get right with God.
This is the way of Jesus, Hallelujah because Christ is our redeemer and He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us
of all sin, literally.
I expect to walk in righteousness and purity. Ofcourse it is possible I stumble and get confused.
My intention is to follow Jesus and listen to Him.
Are there sins I am unaware of? Maybe, but the Lord is faithful and just to bring it to mind
so I get right with Him.
Fundamentally I am acceptable to God through the work Christ has done in me.
Your argument appears to be this is impossible. But does not God love you, has he not redeemed you and done
a good work in you? Do you disbelieve Gods work and call that which He has cleansed and purified unholy and lost? This is the point Paul is making, after doing all needed you can rest and not sit in condemnation unless
you know of things you have not resolved.
The Lords prayer is to keep us from temptation, and the evil one.
This implies you are a child of God, you are redeemed and cleansed, so why make that which God calls pure, evil
and lost.
Now I do know depressed, self hating people, who always find fault with everything will never accept
Gods grace and His love. A version of this is to call that which is without fault faulty, that which is
acceptable, rejected.
The joke is though you claim to know Gods grace you know it without power and victory and continually
walk in self condemnation. If this condemnation is just, repent and confess your sin and get right with God.
This is the way of Jesus, Hallelujah because Christ is our redeemer and He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us
of all sin, literally.
So you believe you know them better than they know themselves. This is where your lens has been damaged by the lies of the enemy. The truth is that the Spirit of God, His Holy Spirit is the one who leads and even convicts of sin. Not you. You obviously listen to His voice, but if you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong, that's a dangerous path of pride. And it takes away from Scripture that says we need each other.
Scripture tells us if we honor one another, we can receive each others reward. I know we have had a few disagreements in the past, but usually I go and pray about things and God tells me He has you and He guides you. I believe you are one of the reasons why I keep coming back to these threads, I am following His Spirit.
So do we judge His servants? No.
Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
The Lord alone knows the intentions of the heart, He alone searches it. And He is the Teacher of Truth who persuades and convinces people of His ways. Remember the Spirit guides each person.
Romans 8:27 And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
C.
Scripture tells us if we honor one another, we can receive each others reward. I know we have had a few disagreements in the past, but usually I go and pray about things and God tells me He has you and He guides you. I believe you are one of the reasons why I keep coming back to these threads, I am following His Spirit.
So do we judge His servants? No.
Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
The Lord alone knows the intentions of the heart, He alone searches it. And He is the Teacher of Truth who persuades and convinces people of His ways. Remember the Spirit guides each person.
Romans 8:27 And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
C.
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:51-58
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:51-58
I do not know how much you have been reading the posts here.
The hyper-grace followers do not believe the Holy Spirit convicts about sin. They regard conviction of sin a work of satan.
And I agree with HeRoseFromTheDead the position of the hyper-grace people is inconsistent and fluid. They hold a relativist position leaning on where their heart leads them rather than working through concepts.
I know how nice and glowing these preachers appear to be when you first hear them. It is all positive, inclusive and encouraging. Unfortunately that is advertising and not the Spirit of God. Righteousness, holiness is not all inclusive, sin is excluded. You cannot get in with dirty clothing or a free pass but no transformation.
The hyper-grace followers do not believe the Holy Spirit convicts about sin. They regard conviction of sin a work of satan.
And I agree with HeRoseFromTheDead the position of the hyper-grace people is inconsistent and fluid. They hold a relativist position leaning on where their heart leads them rather than working through concepts.
I know how nice and glowing these preachers appear to be when you first hear them. It is all positive, inclusive and encouraging. Unfortunately that is advertising and not the Spirit of God. Righteousness, holiness is not all inclusive, sin is excluded. You cannot get in with dirty clothing or a free pass but no transformation.
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