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Always good to see you again...
In response to your statement that I am somehow twisting the Scriptures let me show you exactly where "put off the old man" in Scripture is located...
This is a very important Scripture because it explains what "renewing of the mind" is...
Our old man is our former way of life.
We put off the former way of life.
So we can become RENEWED in the spirit of our minds.
Why is it just in the mind? Because it already happened. And I'll show you it using the exact same Scripture.
[SUP]Eph 4:22 [/SUP]to put off your old self,[SUP][a][/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Your NEW MAN is created (not being created) in righteousness and holiness.
That means your new self, the new creation side of you, is righteous and holy. You're not trying to be righteous and holy. You are righteous and holy. And the more you BELIEVE it and cast down any thought that casts itself above the knowledge of Christ the more you'll walk in who you really are. That Scripture has an entirely new meaning doesn't it now.
And so does Romans 12 when it says be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may PROVE the Will of God.
What does it mean to be transformed by the renewing of the mind? Exactly what I'm doing right now.
I'm telling you who you are, not who you're not (that's the accuser and it's called condemnation). And it focuses us on self. Instead of on Christ. Now suddenly we notice our nakedness and we hide in the bushes from the presence of God. Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Notice the connection there?
Knowledge of His glory or knowledge of good and evil? You don't want to know just goodness to make decisions, but HIS Goodness, there's a fine point of distinction there.
And what does Paul say about that? In one of his most passionate letters, he rallies against this thought of perfecting ourselves, even going so far as to say they are BEWITCHED.... If you are "working" to try to be "transformed". It is you who are doing the completing of every good work instead of Him.
Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
This is why renewing of the mind is critical, which Holy Spirit does in connection with Scripture, but that's another topic completely. Because renewing of the mind shows you who you really are (in Christ) and then you begin to see FRUIT (not works, not effort, but resting/abiding in the finished work of Christ).
The Bible tells us to diligently strive toward one thing: rest.
Hebrews 4:9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. 11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
You need traditions of man to confuse the simplicity of that statement.
C.
In response to your statement that I am somehow twisting the Scriptures let me show you exactly where "put off the old man" in Scripture is located...
This is a very important Scripture because it explains what "renewing of the mind" is...
Our old man is our former way of life.
We put off the former way of life.
So we can become RENEWED in the spirit of our minds.
Why is it just in the mind? Because it already happened. And I'll show you it using the exact same Scripture.
[SUP]Eph 4:22 [/SUP]to put off your old self,[SUP][a][/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Your NEW MAN is created (not being created) in righteousness and holiness.
That means your new self, the new creation side of you, is righteous and holy. You're not trying to be righteous and holy. You are righteous and holy. And the more you BELIEVE it and cast down any thought that casts itself above the knowledge of Christ the more you'll walk in who you really are. That Scripture has an entirely new meaning doesn't it now.
And so does Romans 12 when it says be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may PROVE the Will of God.
What does it mean to be transformed by the renewing of the mind? Exactly what I'm doing right now.
I'm telling you who you are, not who you're not (that's the accuser and it's called condemnation). And it focuses us on self. Instead of on Christ. Now suddenly we notice our nakedness and we hide in the bushes from the presence of God. Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Notice the connection there?
Knowledge of His glory or knowledge of good and evil? You don't want to know just goodness to make decisions, but HIS Goodness, there's a fine point of distinction there.
And what does Paul say about that? In one of his most passionate letters, he rallies against this thought of perfecting ourselves, even going so far as to say they are BEWITCHED.... If you are "working" to try to be "transformed". It is you who are doing the completing of every good work instead of Him.
Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
This is why renewing of the mind is critical, which Holy Spirit does in connection with Scripture, but that's another topic completely. Because renewing of the mind shows you who you really are (in Christ) and then you begin to see FRUIT (not works, not effort, but resting/abiding in the finished work of Christ).
The Bible tells us to diligently strive toward one thing: rest.
Hebrews 4:9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. 11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
You need traditions of man to confuse the simplicity of that statement.
C.
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Amen..Christ being crucified with the 2 thieves is a beautiful picture of Jesus dying for the whole world but only one thief acknowledged Jesus and Jesus said "Today you shall be with Me.." Even though Jesus died for the whole world..sadly there are some that will reject Him. ( I can certainly understand why some would not want to have anything to do with Him if they viewed some parts of this thread )
Budman is not talking about universalism so people must be mis-understanding him.
Budman is not talking about universalism so people must be mis-understanding him.
If I could "like" this one hundred times - I would! Well said and this is exactly how the true Christian life is lived - based on the new creation realities in Christ alone...
It's in the putting off of the former manner of living and doing things of the old man as he is dead. ( Romans 6:6 Gal 2:20 ) Now we still have the flesh to content with but that is overcome by walking by the new spirit ( where the Spirit of Christ ) within us in Christ.
( I can't rep you brother..have to spread it around first )
It's in the putting off of the former manner of living and doing things of the old man as he is dead. ( Romans 6:6 Gal 2:20 ) Now we still have the flesh to content with but that is overcome by walking by the new spirit ( where the Spirit of Christ ) within us in Christ.
( I can't rep you brother..have to spread it around first )
L
No, that's like saying
Carrots are orange.
Pumpkins are orange.
Carrots are pumpkins.
The first two statements are true, but the last statement is demonstrably not true.
When we read in the Scriptures that God is love, we understand that love is an intrinsic part of Who God is.
Intrinsic: Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent
God wouldn't be God without love, grace, truth, holiness, righteousness, etc. . . . they are inseparable from Him.
Again, no one is trying to deify Grace. The capitalization of Grace, Truth, Love, Righteousness, Forgiveness, Life, Gospel etc. is to signify that they are OF God, and not common or of man.
-JGIG
Hey., you are so right UnderGrace!!! I missed that one JGIG., excellent way of putting it! Blessings!
A few comments.
Your idea of putting off the old man and putting on the new is self-contradictory. You rightly describe the old man as the old manner of life, ie. behavior, which we should discard, and then describe putting on the new man as knowing an idea, ie., a new identity, in the mind. To avoid this contradiction, putting on the new man means putting on new behavior, not just imagining what we are.
Another thing. The word holiness in the verse you referenced:
is wrongly translated. It means godward piety, not holiness. The reason I mention this is because the whole man is holy (body, soul, spirit). The idea that only our spirit (the new man) is holy is gnostic.
And lastly, we are transformed into Christ's image (which includes the renewing of the mind) by beholding him, not our own identity. Focusing on who we are as a means of salvation is simply salvation by knowing (gnosis) one's true self. This again is gnostic, for they believed that salvation was knowing one's true divine self. Of course, this is no surprise because hyper-grace is neo-gnosticism, ie., a modern reformulation of the gnostic heresy.
Your idea of putting off the old man and putting on the new is self-contradictory. You rightly describe the old man as the old manner of life, ie. behavior, which we should discard, and then describe putting on the new man as knowing an idea, ie., a new identity, in the mind. To avoid this contradiction, putting on the new man means putting on new behavior, not just imagining what we are.
Another thing. The word holiness in the verse you referenced:
and put on the new man (in accordance with God), who is created in righteousness and holiness from the truth. Ephesians 4:24
is wrongly translated. It means godward piety, not holiness. The reason I mention this is because the whole man is holy (body, soul, spirit). The idea that only our spirit (the new man) is holy is gnostic.
And lastly, we are transformed into Christ's image (which includes the renewing of the mind) by beholding him, not our own identity. Focusing on who we are as a means of salvation is simply salvation by knowing (gnosis) one's true self. This again is gnostic, for they believed that salvation was knowing one's true divine self. Of course, this is no surprise because hyper-grace is neo-gnosticism, ie., a modern reformulation of the gnostic heresy.
People talk about miss-understanding yet they characterise others by their understanding and not the persons.
For instance you can say the whole world is saved through Christ. Now this could mean it is saved actually ie all will now enter heaven or the only way someone can be saved is through Christ and none are barred from believing, so conditional on faith but open to all.
What is confusing is some claim all sin has been dealt with, ie you are not sent to hell because of sin.
The mantra then comes out it is because you rejected Christ, which is actually meaningless, because there are many who never knew of Christ, and Christ is not a moral question about guilt or innocense.
Now if challenged about this the language becomes sin still exists and the believer needs to deal with it, but it cannot be quantified or resolved consciously because that is Gods work not ours.
If one wants to rigously document with accurate words what this belief is, they shout liar.
Either sin is poison that actually destroys what it touches or it is dirt that does not matter and will just be washed away.
If you read the bible there is only one conclusion. Sin is poison and destroys those caught in it.
Now people are so defeated and run down, the idea of facing with Christ their true selves is so scary it is best left alone.
But this is what Christ came to do, to heal, to show us His love, to teach us how we are and how he regards us as precious and nothing that was done in the past matters, it can change for the future. With Him the door is open.
This is what being born again means, a new creation. I expect all those who listen to Christ would know this from His words.
For instance you can say the whole world is saved through Christ. Now this could mean it is saved actually ie all will now enter heaven or the only way someone can be saved is through Christ and none are barred from believing, so conditional on faith but open to all.
What is confusing is some claim all sin has been dealt with, ie you are not sent to hell because of sin.
The mantra then comes out it is because you rejected Christ, which is actually meaningless, because there are many who never knew of Christ, and Christ is not a moral question about guilt or innocense.
Now if challenged about this the language becomes sin still exists and the believer needs to deal with it, but it cannot be quantified or resolved consciously because that is Gods work not ours.
If one wants to rigously document with accurate words what this belief is, they shout liar.
Either sin is poison that actually destroys what it touches or it is dirt that does not matter and will just be washed away.
If you read the bible there is only one conclusion. Sin is poison and destroys those caught in it.
Now people are so defeated and run down, the idea of facing with Christ their true selves is so scary it is best left alone.
But this is what Christ came to do, to heal, to show us His love, to teach us how we are and how he regards us as precious and nothing that was done in the past matters, it can change for the future. With Him the door is open.
This is what being born again means, a new creation. I expect all those who listen to Christ would know this from His words.
E
I guess paul missed the memo..
Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
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