Why so much confusion about salvation?

[MichaelOwen]

God's word is very clear on how salvation works. Romans 10 : 9&10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED! For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." It does NOT get any clearer than that, so why is there so much confusion? I can tell you this....our Lord is NOT the author of confusion...so remember that going forward.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus also said, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32.
You wanna pretend all people only means some? Like you? You have been deceived.

 

[tourist]

For a time now you have said you belong to a reformed church and now you are saying you belong to a non denominational church ?

Apparently, it's a reformed non-denominational church.

 

[Endoscopy]

One has to trample over piles of scriptures to ignore that OSAS is a Biblical fact

Only in your mind. Calvinism and Armenianism are directly opposed in their 5 points. Here is a text comparison between them. Each point has a description with one and then the other one right below it. Personally I am a Calvinist but have researched Armenianism and found many verses backing it up. I therefore respectfully agree to disagree with Armenianism.

Five Points of Calvinism and Armenianism
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

The five points of Arminianism (from Jacobus Arminius 1559-1609) are in contrast to the five points of Calvinism (from from John (Jehan) Calvin 1509-1564). The Arminian five points with the Calvinist points listed beneath it are listed below. First Armenian then Calvinism below it. There are web sites having a lengthy discussion about each point and several Bible verses backing it up. The Apostles Creed defines what a Christian must believe. Anything outside it is agree to disagree. This is an example of the agree to disagree.

1.
Human Free Will--This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
Total Depravity - - this states a man is incapable to choose God.

2.
Conditional Election--God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
Unconditional Election - - God reached in and chose forcing the person to respond to the gospel message.

3.
Universal Atonement--The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
Limited Atonement - - Jesus only bore the sin for only those who choose him.

4.
Resistable Grace--The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
Irresistible Grace - - The teaching that when God reaches in and touches the person his grace is irresistible.

5.
Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.
Perseverance of the Saints - - Once saved always saved OSAS.

Armenian
1. Free will
2. ConditionalElection
3. Universal Atonement
4. Resistable Grace
5. Fall from Grace

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

1. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
4. Irresistible Grace
5. Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

 

[carl11]

Apparently, it's a reformed non-denominational church.

Very well could be; but if that was so then I believe they are not part of the CRC.

 

[Slayer]

So much deception in the church except yours, huh? Satan is deceiving the whole world but not you, right? I believe I understand your meaning quite well enough LOL. Having a personal relationship with God, being called out of the world... these are personal empirical experiences people have with the LIVING Lord. Jesus did not stop interacting with the world on the cross. Anyone who tells you He did is lying to you, and you have been deceived to believe it. BTW, talking to God is called "prayer." Perhaps you should try it

When you find out the truth, it exposes liars straight away. So yeah, I can claim that my Church is true and that we haven't been deceived. I would be very careful about who you talk to, many false prophets have gone out into the world seeking to deceive.

The Devil and His Demons devour people by poisoning their minds, which equates to murder. He murdered Adam and Eve in the garden, oh' I know you think He didn't but the fact is He murdered them by deceiving them. Deception brings forth death, the kind of death described in the Bible is an everlasting sensation of dying while you burn in flames.

Be very careful about who you listen to, find yourself a faithful Shepherd to lead you as I can see that you are a lost sheep and you will be devoured by the hungry lion if you don't have a faithful Shepherd to defend you.

 

[Slayer]

Only in your mind. Calvinism and Armenianism are directly opposed in their 5 points. Here is a text comparison between them. Each point has a description with one and then the other one right below it. Personally I am a Calvinist but have researched Armenianism and found many verses backing it up. I therefore respectfully agree to disagree with Armenianism.

Five Points of Calvinism and Armenianism
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

The five points of Arminianism (from Jacobus Arminius 1559-1609) are in contrast to the five points of Calvinism (from from John (Jehan) Calvin 1509-1564). The Arminian five points with the Calvinist points listed beneath it are listed below. First Armenian then Calvinism below it. There are web sites having a lengthy discussion about each point and several Bible verses backing it up. The Apostles Creed defines what a Christian must believe. Anything outside it is agree to disagree. This is an example of the agree to disagree.

1.
Human Free Will--This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
Total Depravity - - this states a man is incapable to choose God.

2.
Conditional Election--God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
Unconditional Election - - God reached in and chose forcing the person to respond to the gospel message.

3.
Universal Atonement--The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
Limited Atonement - - Jesus only bore the sin for only those who choose him.

4.
Resistable Grace--The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
Irresistible Grace - - The teaching that when God reaches in and touches the person his grace is irresistible.

5.
Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.
Perseverance of the Saints - - Once saved always saved OSAS.

Armenian
1. Free will
2. ConditionalElection
3. Universal Atonement
4. Resistable Grace
5. Fall from Grace

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

1. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
4. Irresistible Grace
5. Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

I've heard all the pros and cons many times before, I personally have no time for Arminians. We cannot be equally yoked with them, they are not our brethren. They believe in a different god, their god failed in his mission to save the world. We believe in a winner God, One who wins all the time. He has no time for losers.

 

[Hevosmies]

This is one of those tertiary things, I think. Some people believe repentence comes before salvation, others believe repentence comes after salvation. I am a person who believes it comes after, and sometimes very gradually.

The Bible states:

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

[Hevosmies]

The crux of the matter is one of the differences between Armenianism and Calvinism, point 5. Who is right?

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

Out of the two, arminianism has more correct points. but we shouldn't be limited to just two man-made summaries. Calvinism's L is absolutely ridicilous and unbiblical, and requires much explaining and twisting to try and find it from the scriptures. Nobody has ever picked up a bible after coming to faith, read it and came out a calvinist. Its just not something that you can come up with, until you meet a teacher or read about it somewhere and read into the scriptures those ideas. In fact a calvinist cannot even preach the gospel honestly, because he cannot say with certainty that "Jesus died for your sins" nor can he say "our sins" with certainty. He cannot know who the elect are.

1. Free will, TRUE. (Joshua 24:15, John 7:17, Mark 8:34, Rev 3:20) [too many to list really... its evident everywhere from genesis to revelation. And without it nobody can be judged for their actions if they were not free]
2. Conditional election, confusion of the terms, elected to what? Christ is elect, all who are in Christ are predestined (Eph 1:4)
3. General Atonement, TRUE. Christ died for the world, not for our sins only but of the WHOLE WORLD, tasted death for EVERY man, all, every, world. How much more plain can it get? (Hebrews 2:9, John 3:16, 1 John 2:2)
4. The Holy Spirit can indeed be resisted. (Acts 7:51)
5. Falling from grace is possible (Galatians 5:4). The genuinely saved will persevere to the end, (1 John 3:9).

 

[carl11]

When you find out the truth, it exposes liars straight away. So yeah, I can claim that my Church is true and that we haven't been deceived. I would be very careful about who you talk to, many false prophets have gone out into the world seeking to deceive.

Now correct me here if I’m wrong but your church believes that faith is an instrument. Also I imagine they look at water baptism as death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In others words in with old and out with the new.

 

[Slayer]

Now correct me here if I’m wrong but your church believes that faith is an instrument. Also I imagine they look at water baptism as death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In others words in with old and out with the new.

My Church only believes the Bible, so whatever the Bible says is what we believe. The Bible is Gods Words and we are a faithful Church who adheres strictly to Gods Word and we reject everyone who perverts God Word.

Faith is one of the gifts a saved person receives in his salvation package, water baptism symbolizes death burial and Resurrection. We are not superstitious so we don't look at it as a literal death etc.....