Why Some Arminians and Calvinists Need to Calm Down

[Blade]

Two things come to mind. Why are we quoting this person "Nate Sala"? Why post it here? Well "Arminians and Calvinists" I missed that thread or this is in the right place because to you we all sit under one of these camps?

It did make me laugh. Well if I posted something like this I should follow what I believe then right? Later lol

 

[PaulThomson]

Two things come to mind. Why are we quoting this person "Nate Sala"? Why post it here? Well "Arminians and Calvinists" I missed that thread or this is in the right place because to you we all sit under one of these camps?

It did make me laugh. Well if I posted something like this I should follow what I believe then right? Later lol

Many Calvinists insist on being embraced as brothers in Christ by all other Christians, but are constantly calling other Christians heretics of various stripes when we express our own understandings of scripture that do not defer to the sacred TULIP. We can see Johann doing that here. They don't want to be called out as they surreptitiously work at transforming congregations towards embracing exhaustive divine determinism.

 

[Johann]

Only if you excise texts from their contexts and eisegete AUGUSTINIAN-neo-platonic-manichaean determinism and exhaustive divine foreknowledge into the resultant salad.

Ok-exegete this for me-

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I'll be waiting.

 

[Johann]

John speaks about many people coming to Jesus between Chapters 1 and 7. Not all that came to Him came because they believed in Him. They came because they heard his controversial teaching (given Him by the Father) and saw his miracles (given by the Father). John says two of John's disciples came to Jesu. Then Peter and Nathanael came to Jesus. then because of His miracles at the passover, many came, Nicodemas came by night to Jesus. The Samaritan woman's village came to Him. An official whose son was ill came to jesus becaus he had heard of Jesus works and words. Jews csme to Jesus seeking ways to kill him because of his teaching and miracles. in ch.6 a large crowd is following Him because hey saw the signs he was doing on the sick. Judas came to Jesus because of the signs of power.

Coming to Jesus does not equal believing in Him. John says that Everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest their works be exposed. So why did all these sinners come to Jesus to observe him? Because the Father drew them with signs and controversial teaching.

There is nothing here about the Father's drawing being an effectual drawing to faith in Christ. It is a strategic attracting of sinners to bait them into choosing freely to come and inspect the Lamb of God. But some come and believe and some come and want to kill Him.

Or-alternatively-

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44). These words of Christ make manifest the depths of human depravity. They expose the inveterate stubbornness of the human will. They explain the "murmuring" of these Jews. In answering them thus, the obvious meaning of the Savior’s words was this: By your murmuring you make it evident that you have not come to Me, that you are not disposed to come to Me; and with your present self-righteousness, you never will come to Me.

Before you come to Me you must be converted and become as little children. And before that can take place, you must be the subjects of Divine operation. One has only to reflect on the condition of the natural man in order to see the indubitable truth of this. Salvation is most exactly suited to the sinner’s needs, but it is not at all suited to his natural inclinations.

The Gospel is too spiritual for his carnal mind: too humbling for his pride: too exacting for his rebellious will: too lofty for his darkened understanding: too holy for his earthbound desires.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." How can one who has a high conceit of himself and his religious performances admit that all his righteousnesses are as filthy rags?

How can one who prides himself on his morality and his religiousness, own himself as lost, undone, and justly condemned? How can one who sees so little amiss in himself, who is blind to the fact that from the crown of his head to the sole of his foot there is no soundness in him (Isa. 1:6), earnestly seek the great Physician?

No man with an unchanged heart and mind will ever embrace God’s salvation. The inability here, then, is a moral one. Just as when Christ also said, "how can ye, being evil, speak good things?" (Matthew 12:34). And again, "How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another?" (John 5:44). And again, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive" (John 14:17).

Water will not flow uphill, nor will the natural man act contrary to his corrupt nature. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and equally impossible is it for a heart that loves the darkness to also love the light.

The depravity of man is, from the human side, the only thing which will explain the general rejection of the Gospel. The only satisfactory answer to the questions, Why is not Christ cordially received by all to whom He is presented? Why do the majority of men despise and reject Him? is man is a fallen creature, a depraved being who loves sin and hates holiness.

So, too, the only satisfactory answer which can be given to the questions, Why is the Gospel cordially received by any man? Why is it not obstinately rejected by all? is, In the case of those who believe, God has, by His supernatural influence, counteracted against the human depravity; in other words, the Father has "drawn" to the Son.

The condition of the natural man is altogether beyond human repair. To talk about exerting the will is to ignore the state of the man behind the will. Man’s will has not escaped the general wreckage of his nature. When man fell, every part of his being was affected. Just as truly as the sinner’s heart is estranged from God and his understanding darkened, so is his will enslaved by sin. To predicate the freedom of the will is to deny that man is totally depraved. To say that man has the power within himself to either reject or accept Christ, is to repudiate the fact that he is the captive of the Devil. It is to say there is at least one good thing in the flesh. It is to flatly contradict this word of the Son of God—"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

Contrary with your eisegesis and butchering of the text-no?

 

[Johann]

Or-alternatively-

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44). These words of Christ make manifest the depths of human depravity. They expose the inveterate stubbornness of the human will. They explain the "murmuring" of these Jews. In answering them thus, the obvious meaning of the Savior’s words was this: By your murmuring you make it evident that you have not come to Me, that you are not disposed to come to Me; and with your present self-righteousness, you never will come to Me.

Before you come to Me you must be converted and become as little children. And before that can take place, you must be the subjects of Divine operation. One has only to reflect on the condition of the natural man in order to see the indubitable truth of this. Salvation is most exactly suited to the sinner’s needs, but it is not at all suited to his natural inclinations.

The Gospel is too spiritual for his carnal mind: too humbling for his pride: too exacting for his rebellious will: too lofty for his darkened understanding: too holy for his earthbound desires.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." How can one who has a high conceit of himself and his religious performances admit that all his righteousnesses are as filthy rags?

How can one who prides himself on his morality and his religiousness, own himself as lost, undone, and justly condemned? How can one who sees so little amiss in himself, who is blind to the fact that from the crown of his head to the sole of his foot there is no soundness in him (Isa. 1:6), earnestly seek the great Physician?

No man with an unchanged heart and mind will ever embrace God’s salvation. The inability here, then, is a moral one. Just as when Christ also said, "how can ye, being evil, speak good things?" (Matthew 12:34). And again, "How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another?" (John 5:44). And again, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive" (John 14:17).

Water will not flow uphill, nor will the natural man act contrary to his corrupt nature. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and equally impossible is it for a heart that loves the darkness to also love the light.

The depravity of man is, from the human side, the only thing which will explain the general rejection of the Gospel. The only satisfactory answer to the questions, Why is not Christ cordially received by all to whom He is presented? Why do the majority of men despise and reject Him? is man is a fallen creature, a depraved being who loves sin and hates holiness.

So, too, the only satisfactory answer which can be given to the questions, Why is the Gospel cordially received by any man? Why is it not obstinately rejected by all? is, In the case of those who believe, God has, by His supernatural influence, counteracted against the human depravity; in other words, the Father has "drawn" to the Son.

The condition of the natural man is altogether beyond human repair. To talk about exerting the will is to ignore the state of the man behind the will. Man’s will has not escaped the general wreckage of his nature. When man fell, every part of his being was affected. Just as truly as the sinner’s heart is estranged from God and his understanding darkened, so is his will enslaved by sin. To predicate the freedom of the will is to deny that man is totally depraved. To say that man has the power within himself to either reject or accept Christ, is to repudiate the fact that he is the captive of the Devil. It is to say there is at least one good thing in the flesh. It is to flatly contradict this word of the Son of God—"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

Contrary with your eisegesis and butchering of the text-no?

As said above, the unregenerate sinner is so depraved that with an unchanged heart and mind he will never come to Christ. And the change which is absolutely essential is one which God alone can produce. It is, therefore, by Divine "drawing" that any one comes to Christ. What is this "drawing"? We answer, It is the power of the Holy Spirit overcoming the self-righteousness of the sinner, and convicting him of his lost condition. It is the Holy Spirit awakening within him a sense of need. It is the power of the Holy Spirit overcoming the pride of the natural man, so that he is ready to come to Christ as an empty-handed beggar. It is the Holy Spirit creating within him an hunger for the bread of life.

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God" (John 6:45). Our Lord confirms what He had just said by an appeal to the Scriptures. The reference is to Isaiah 54:13: "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord." This serves to explain, in part at least, the meaning of "draw." Those drawn are they who are "taught of God." And who are these, so highly favored? The quotation from Isaiah 54 tells us: they are God’s "children"; His own, His elect. Notice carefully how our Lord quoted Isaiah 54:13. He simply said, "And they shall be all taught of God." This helps us to define the "all" in other passages, like John 12:32: "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Me." The "all" does not mean all of humanity, but all of God’s children, all His elect.
"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me" (John 6:45). This also throws light on the "drawing" of the previous verse. Those drawn are they who have "heard" and "learned of the Father." That is to say, God has given them an ear to hear and a heart to perceive. It is parallel with what we get in 1 Corinthians 1:23, 24: "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." "Called" here refers to the effectual and irresistible call of God. It is a call which is heard with the inward ear. It is a call which is instinct with Divine power, drawing its object to Christ Himself.

J.

 

[Mem]

Like a gnat is drawn by the fire, the heat will eventually affect its natural state but, is it the heat or the flame that effectually draws it?

 

[selahsays]

That is not even the issue. And how can it be "the same way" if Calvinists claim that saving faith is a gift given by God only to "the elect" while the Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel)" ?.

Why not stop worrying about labels and what man says? What does the Bible say? Does the Bible teach election? Yes. Does it teach Free Will? Yes. The Bible teaches both; therefore, both are true. Here are just two examples out of many:

Free Will— Revelation 22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Election— Ephesians 1:1-4: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

See, if you only hold to election, then you’ll believe that everyone else is going to hell, which is certainly not true (We serve a loving Father). And if you entirely dismiss election and just go with Free Will, you will miss many of our Father’s promises to the Elect, especially those pertaining to these end times we’re living in now. Remember, no one knows whether or not they are Elect. Also, it’s necessary to understand that God loves all His children—Free Will and Elect.

 

[Johann]

Like a gnat is drawn by the fire, the heat will eventually affect its natural state but, is it the heat or the flame that effectually draws it?

The flame-the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann]

Why not stop worrying about labels and what man says? What does the Bible say? Does the Bible teach election? Yes. Does it teach Free Will? Yes. The Bible teaches both; therefore, both are true. Here are just two examples out of many:

Free Will— Revelation 22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Election— Ephesians 1:1-4: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

See, if you only hold to election, then you’ll believe that everyone else is going to hell, which is certainly not true (We serve a loving Father). And if you entirely dismiss election and just go with Free Will, you will miss many of our Father’s promises to the Elect, especially those pertaining to these end times we’re living in now. Remember, no one knows whether or not they are Elect. Also, it’s necessary to understand that God loves all His children—Free Will and Elect.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

My free will changed when I was saved.


And I soon found out I was not elected, I was chosen not to perish.

Then I found out the elect was not me, but Jesus living in me.

Which means nobody is elect unless Jesus is living in there hearts.

Oh yeah forgot to mention, when your heart is circumcised the free will you had is no longer the same


Yeah God loves you. So he burns your free will in the fire with the rest of the dirty branches 😊

 

[selahsays]

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Love this verse. This one speaks regarding the Elect, which were chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Mem]

The flame-the Holy Spirit.

I was thinking more along the lines of a consideration of an interest in the Father as opposed to the interest of the Father. The Holy Spirit is certainly a third component inherent of a fire though. That is, people certainly came to Jesus with an interest in Him but it is those that came to Him with an interest in His message from the Father that come with actual 'ears to hear.'

 

[PaulThomson]

Ok-exegete this for me-

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I'll be waiting.

Eph. 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us in Christ with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us-in-him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be the fathers of many nations, God chose whatever persons eventually associated themselves with the descendants of these men, even though those persons had no actual existence or identities at the time of those patriarchs. Rahab and Ruth were chosen in the patriarchs, because God chose whoever would join the community that would be the patriarchs' heritage.

The blessings God intended for Jesus to inherit, including holiness and blamelessness, have been inherited and will be inherited by all those who by faith associate themselves with the community of those who have received the Spirit of Christ through putting faith in Him. Who they would be was not determined from the beginning. But that whoever becomes in and abides in Christ will be blessed to live holy and blamelessly before Him in love was determined from the beginning.

 

[PaulThomson]

Ok-exegete this for me-

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I'll be waiting.

Eph. 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us in Christ with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us-in-him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be the fathers of many nations, God chose whatever persons eventually associated themselves with the descendants of these men, even though those persons had no actual existence or identities at the time of those patriarchs. Rahab and Ruth were chosen in the patriarchs, because God chose whoever would join the community that would be the patriarchs' heritage.

The blessings God intended for Jesus to inherit, including holiness and blamelessness, have been inherited and will be inherited by all those who by faith associate themselves with the community of those who have received the Spirit of Christ through putting faith in Him. Who they would be was not determined from the beginning. But that whoever becomes in and abides in Christ will be blessed to live holy and blamelessly before Him in love was determined from the beginning. He has chosen the community (us-in-Him) before the foundation of the world; not each individual (not each-of-us-in-Him before the foundation of the world).

 

[Johann]

I was thinking more along the lines of a consideration of an interest in the Father as opposed to the interest of the Father. The Holy Spirit is certainly a third component inherent of a fire though. That is, people certainly came to Jesus with an interest in Him but it is those that came to Him with an interest in His message from the Father that come with actual 'ears to hear.'

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Context-


1Co 2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
1Co 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling,
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Wisdom from the Spirit
1Co 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

How do you apply proper exegesis to this chapter? I am not interested in philosophizing about the Scriptures-or opinions, -here are some guidelines on good exegesis-

Survey the historical context in general.
Before the investigation of any sentence, paragraph, or other subsection of a document, one always needs to have a good sense about
the entire document. Who is the author? Who are the recipients?

What is the relationship between them? Where do the recipients live?

What are their present circumstances? What historical situation occasioned this writing? What is the author's purpose? What is the overall theme or concern? Does the argument or narrative have an easily
discerned outline?

It is to your great advantage, if time permits, to do this work for
yourself; in a book study course this will be done in the process of the
course. But for the exegesis of a "problem passage," you will often
want to get right at the passage. Therefore, it is important to consult a
content-oriented survey and a critical introduction (see Chapter IV.l).

NoTE: If you are approaching the text for reason 1, that is, methodically working your way through a book (see Introduction), there is
no substitute for doing this work for yourself. In this case you should
do the following:

I. GUIDE FOR FULL EXEGESIS
1.1. Read the entire document through in English in one sitting.
There is no substitute for this step. You never start exegeting a
book at chapter 1, verse 1. The first step always is to read the entire
document through. You need a provisional sense of the whole before
analyzing any of its parts, and you gain such a sense by reading it
through. [NOTE: One can read a letter the size of Philippians aloud (a
good exercise, by the way) in about thirteen minutes, so one ought to
read shorter documents through several times in successive days
before starting on an exegesis project.]
After the first reading, go back through it a second time in skim
fashion and make notes of the following (with references):

1.1.1. Discover everything you can about the recipients. Are they
Jews or Gentiles? or a combination? What relation do they have with
the author? Are there any hints of their socioeconomic situation?

1.1.2. Discover everything you can about the purpose. Does the
author explicitly say anything about it? What is implied?

1.1.3. Note special emphases or concerns that emerge. What words
or ideas are frequently repeated? What unusual vocabulary recurs?
What, if anything, might these tell you about the occasion or purpose?

1.1.4. Work out an annotated outline of the whole book (to be revised
on further study).
After you feel somewhat at home with the document as a whole,
then proceed to the next steps. --

By Gordon D. Fee.

 

[PaulThomson]

Or-alternatively-

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44). These words of Christ make manifest the depths of human depravity. They expose the inveterate stubbornness of the human will. They explain the "murmuring" of these Jews. In answering them thus, the obvious meaning of the Savior’s words was this: By your murmuring you make it evident that you have not come to Me, that you are not disposed to come to Me; and with your present self-righteousness, you never will come to Me.

Before you come to Me you must be converted and become as little children. And before that can take place, you must be the subjects of Divine operation. One has only to reflect on the condition of the natural man in order to see the indubitable truth of this. Salvation is most exactly suited to the sinner’s needs, but it is not at all suited to his natural inclinations.

The Gospel is too spiritual for his carnal mind: too humbling for his pride: too exacting for his rebellious will: too lofty for his darkened understanding: too holy for his earthbound desires.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." How can one who has a high conceit of himself and his religious performances admit that all his righteousnesses are as filthy rags?

How can one who prides himself on his morality and his religiousness, own himself as lost, undone, and justly condemned? How can one who sees so little amiss in himself, who is blind to the fact that from the crown of his head to the sole of his foot there is no soundness in him (Isa. 1:6), earnestly seek the great Physician?

No man with an unchanged heart and mind will ever embrace God’s salvation. The inability here, then, is a moral one. Just as when Christ also said, "how can ye, being evil, speak good things?" (Matthew 12:34). And again, "How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another?" (John 5:44). And again, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive" (John 14:17).

Water will not flow uphill, nor will the natural man act contrary to his corrupt nature. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and equally impossible is it for a heart that loves the darkness to also love the light.

The depravity of man is, from the human side, the only thing which will explain the general rejection of the Gospel. The only satisfactory answer to the questions, Why is not Christ cordially received by all to whom He is presented? Why do the majority of men despise and reject Him? is man is a fallen creature, a depraved being who loves sin and hates holiness.

So, too, the only satisfactory answer which can be given to the questions, Why is the Gospel cordially received by any man? Why is it not obstinately rejected by all? is, In the case of those who believe, God has, by His supernatural influence, counteracted against the human depravity; in other words, the Father has "drawn" to the Son.

The condition of the natural man is altogether beyond human repair. To talk about exerting the will is to ignore the state of the man behind the will. Man’s will has not escaped the general wreckage of his nature. When man fell, every part of his being was affected. Just as truly as the sinner’s heart is estranged from God and his understanding darkened, so is his will enslaved by sin. To predicate the freedom of the will is to deny that man is totally depraved. To say that man has the power within himself to either reject or accept Christ, is to repudiate the fact that he is the captive of the Devil. It is to say there is at least one good thing in the flesh. It is to flatly contradict this word of the Son of God—"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

Contrary with your eisegesis and butchering of the text-no?

You have high-lighted so many ideas there that are not from the Bible,and are not divine revelation, but are assumptions of your man-made systematic theology. Then you scatter biblical verse or two among the pile of hay in an attempt to imply your hay is based on scripture.

 

[Mem]

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Your interpretation assumes that there is no such thing as the spiritual man. Yet, within the context you supplied, there is evidence of the "spirit within him."

 

[Johann]

Eph. 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us in Christ with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us-in-him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be the fathers of many nations, God chose whatever persons eventually associated themselves with the descendants of these men, even though those persons had no actual existence or identities at the time of those patriarchs. Rahab and Ruth were chosen in the patriarchs, because God chose whoever would join the community that would be the patriarchs' heritage.

The blessings God intended for Jesus to inherit, including holiness and blamelessness, have been inherited and will be inherited by all those who by faith associate themselves with the community of those who have received the Spirit of Christ through putting faith in Him. Who they would be was not determined from the beginning. But that whoever becomes in and abides in Christ will be blessed to live holy and blamelessly before Him in love was determined from the beginning. He has chosen the community (us-in-Him) before the foundation of the world; not each individual (not each-of-us-in-Him before the foundation of the world).

That's it?
I would highly recommend you to read this-

And then WORK with the Scriptures--

And can sit and critique a debate, any debate for that matter.

I listen to Wise Disciple-most of my free time.
J.

 

[Johann]

You have high-lighted so many ideas there that are not from the Bible,and are not divine revelation, but are assumptions of your man-made systematic theology. Then you scatter biblical verse or two among the pile of hay in an attempt to imply your hay is based on scripture.

I can back up every statement with biblical references @PaulThomson and it is very obvious you are not aware of the depravity of the heart ACCORDING to Scripture.
Tell me, do you think you are a "good" man?

 

[Johann]

Your interpretation assumes that there is no such thing as the spiritual man. Yet, within the context you supplied, there is evidence of the "spirit within him."

Elaborate-give me some solid, exegetical "food"

We know from John 3:5 that it’s the Holy Spirit that causes us to be born again. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

We know from 1 Corinthians 12:3, “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.”

We know from Romans 8:13 that you must put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit or perish.

We know from 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that all our efforts to pursue holiness will be hopeless because sanctification is by the Spirit.

We know from Ephesians 1:17 that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of wisdom and that, without him, you will live lives of absolute foolishness. Look around the world. Insanity. Because the Holy Spirit inhabits so few. And he’s the Spirit of wisdom.

We know from 1 Corinthians 12:7, that “to each [believer] is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.”

We know from Romans 8:11 that “if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

No Spirit, no resurrection. No Spirit, no new birth. No Spirit, no confession of the lordship of Jesus. No Spirit, no victory over sin. No Spirit, no progress in sanctification. No Spirit, no spiritual wisdom. No Spirit, no spiritual gifts, and no resurrection.
J.