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So they worshipped the sun and faced East like the Muslims do, listen I'm just a learner please bare with me, Sorry for asking question and you getting upset of my questions, I'm just after some truth I don't want to belive I want to know by fact.
toing to let this thread die now as I have few more questions like genesis 36.19 I think it is, where lot gets is daughters pregnant, I don't like that bit as I have my Daugher reading the bible sometime and she only 8 year old
toing to let this thread die now as I have few more questions like genesis 36.19 I think it is, where lot gets is daughters pregnant, I don't like that bit as I have my Daugher reading the bible sometime and she only 8 year old
Are you trying to imply that this passage is the equivalent to or source of the Easter sunrise service? It would be quite an understatement to say that's a stretch which has no basis in reality.
First, the passage is never connected to Easter. Second, would it be strange If I had to point out the obvious: that people who participate in an Easter sunrise service don't actually worship the sun? That they don't actually worship statues? That they don't offer sacrifices to Tammuz? These seem to be rather key elements missing in order to support your thesis. Third, Tammuz was not a sun god. Fourth, Tammuz' specific feast corresponds roughly to June/July, not March/April - so not Easter or Christmas.
And who does this one on an Easter morning:
Eze16:20 “‘You took your sons and your daughters whom you bore to me and you sacrificed them as food for the idols to eat. As if your prostitution not enough, 16:21 you slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols.
...nobody.
First, the passage is never connected to Easter. Second, would it be strange If I had to point out the obvious: that people who participate in an Easter sunrise service don't actually worship the sun? That they don't actually worship statues? That they don't offer sacrifices to Tammuz? These seem to be rather key elements missing in order to support your thesis. Third, Tammuz was not a sun god. Fourth, Tammuz' specific feast corresponds roughly to June/July, not March/April - so not Easter or Christmas.
And who does this one on an Easter morning:
Eze16:20 “‘You took your sons and your daughters whom you bore to me and you sacrificed them as food for the idols to eat. As if your prostitution not enough, 16:21 you slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols.
...nobody.
Uh, let me see, do modern churches today have "sunrise" services? You do realize that the Tabernacle and later the Temples were oriented so that when one entered they were facing West, don't you? It was important enough to God to tell people they should not face East in His house.
I find it interesting that when modern organizations adapt ancient practices, that denial is the very first line of defense.
I find it interesting that when modern organizations adapt ancient practices, that denial is the very first line of defense.
Ezekiyl 8:14-18, "Then He brought me to the entrance of the gate of Yahweh's house which was toward the north; and behold, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz. He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? Yet you will see still greater abominations than these.” Then He brought me into the inner court of Yahweh's house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of Yahweh, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of Yahweh and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun. He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they have committed here, that they have filled the land with violence and provoked Me repeatedly? For behold, they are putting the twig to their nose. “Therefore, I indeed will deal in wrath. My eye will have no pity nor will I spare; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, yet I will not listen to them.”
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
God's thoughts are not our thoughts.
What did God tell Saul to do with the Amalekites? Reason with them? Play nice with them?
1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Not what most people would think from God, is it?
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
God's thoughts are not our thoughts.
What did God tell Saul to do with the Amalekites? Reason with them? Play nice with them?
1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Not what most people would think from God, is it?
In other words, you won't even address the points I made. It's impossible to [rationally] connect the pagan temple practices in pre-exilic Israel, as recorded in Ezekiel (among other places), to Christian practices. I mean, we could be irrational and make-up or say anything we want, but I fail to see any value in that.
We could take various points one at a time if I threw out too many:
(1) Tammuz is not a sun god.
Do you agree?
We could take various points one at a time if I threw out too many:
(1) Tammuz is not a sun god.
Do you agree?
Oh I agree, Tammuz was not the sun god, but sun worship was connected to his supposed resurrection in the spring...
According to the old legends, after Tammuz was slain, he descended into the underworld. But through the weeping of his "mother", Ishtar (Easter), he was mystically revived in spring. "The resurrection of Tammuz through Ishtar's grief was dramatically represented annually in order to insure the success of the crops and the fertility of the people. Each year men and women had to grieve with Ishtar over the death of Tammuz and celebrate the god's return in order to win anew her favor and her benefits!. When the new vegetation began to come forth, those ancient people believed their "savior" had come from the underworld, had ended winter, and caused spring to begin. Even the Israelites adopted the doctrines and rites of the annual SUN Worship spring festival, for Ezekiel speaks of "women weeping for Tammuz" (Ezekiel 8 :14).
According to the old legends, after Tammuz was slain, he descended into the underworld. But through the weeping of his "mother", Ishtar (Easter), he was mystically revived in spring. "The resurrection of Tammuz through Ishtar's grief was dramatically represented annually in order to insure the success of the crops and the fertility of the people. Each year men and women had to grieve with Ishtar over the death of Tammuz and celebrate the god's return in order to win anew her favor and her benefits!. When the new vegetation began to come forth, those ancient people believed their "savior" had come from the underworld, had ended winter, and caused spring to begin. Even the Israelites adopted the doctrines and rites of the annual SUN Worship spring festival, for Ezekiel speaks of "women weeping for Tammuz" (Ezekiel 8 :14).
TAMMUZ
tam'-uz, tam'-mooz (tammuz; Thammouz):
(1) The name of a Phoenician deity, the Adonis of the Greeks. He was originally a Sumerian or Babylonian sun-god, called Dumuzu, the husband of Ishtar, who corresponds to Aphrodite of the Greeks. The worship of these deities was introduced into Syria in very early times under the designation of Tammuz and Astarte, and appears among the Greeks in the myth of Adonis and Aphrodite, who are identified with Osiris and Isis of the Egyptian pantheon, showing how widespread the cult became. The Babylonian myth represents Dumuzu, or Tammuz, as a beautiful shepherd slain by a wild boar, the symbol of winter. Ishtar long mourned for him and descended into the underworld to deliver him from the embrace of death (Frazer, Adonis, Attis and Osiris). This mourning for Tammuz was celebrated in Babylonia by women on the 2nd day of the 4th month, which thus acquired the name of Tammuz (see CALENDAR). This custom of weeping for Tammuz is referred to in the Bible in the only passage where the name occurs (Ezekiel 8:14). The chief seat of the cult in Syria was Gebal (modern Gebail, Greek Bublos) in Phoenicia, to the South of which the river Adonis (Nahr Ibrahim) has its mouth, and its source is the magnificent fountain of Apheca (modern `Afqa), where was the celebrated temple of Venus or Aphrodite, the ruins of which still exist. The women of Gebal used to repair to this temple in midsummer to celebrate the death of Adonis or Tammuz, and there arose in connection with this celebration those licentious rites which rendered the cult so infamous that it was suppressed by Constantine the Great.
The name Adonis, by which this deity was known to the Greeks, is none other than the Phoenician 'Adhon, which is the same in Hebrew. His death is supposed to typify the long, dry summer of Syria and Palestine, when vegetation perishes, and his return to life the rainy season when the parched earth is revivified and is covered with luxuriant vegetation, or his death symbolizes the cold, rough winter, the boar of the myth, and his return the verdant spring.
Considering the disgraceful and licentious rites with which the cult was celebrated, it is no wonder that Ezekiel should have taken the vision of the women weeping for Tammuz in the temple as one of the greatest abominations that could defile the Holy House.
See ADONIS.
(2) The fourth month of the Jewish year, corresponding to July. The name is derived from that of a Syrian god, identified with Adonis (Ezekiel 8:14).
Bibliography Information
Orr, James, M.A., D.D. General Editor. "Entry for 'TAMMUZ'". "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia". 1915.
Also:
ATS Bible Dictionary
TammuzA Syrian idol, mentioned in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women are represented as weeping for it. It is generally supposed that Tammuz was the same deity as the Phoenician Adonis, and perhaps the Egyptian Osiris. The fabled death and restoration of Adonis, supposed to symbolize the departure and return of the sun, were celebrated at the summer solstice first with lamentation, and then with rejoicing and obscene revels.
Easton's Bible Dictionary
A corruption of Dumuzi, the Accadian sun-god (the Adonis of the Greeks), the husband of the goddess Ishtar. In the Chaldean calendar there was a month set apart in honour of this god, the month of June to July, the beginning of the summer solstice. At this festival, which lasted six days, the worshippers, with loud lamentations, bewailed the funeral of the god, they sat "weeping for Tammuz" (Ezek. 8:14).
Babylonian confusion lol, just like chistmas decorations.... useless.
I'm using, "Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible" edited by K. van der Toorn, Bob Becking, Pieter Willem van der Horst (pp 828-833).
It doesn't look like he was a sun god. The idea that Tammuz was Adonis wasn't mentioned anywhere before Origen (Adonis wasn't a sun god either). They probably weren't the same.
Those dictionary references you're using are problematic because there are no references to any primary sources. Who knows where they came up with their conclusions. The good thing about "DDD" are the references to primary sources (which is to be expected from people like van der Toorn), and it's more thorough.
Tammuz is a corruption of the name "Dumuzi," and he functioned as a mix between a shepherd, agricultural deity, and fertility deity. In some texts, Dumuzi even makes requests to the sun god, indicating that he's definitely not a sun god (Dumuzi's Dream).
So I'm not sure how your references reached their conclusions, but it appears to be incorrect.
It doesn't look like he was a sun god. The idea that Tammuz was Adonis wasn't mentioned anywhere before Origen (Adonis wasn't a sun god either). They probably weren't the same.
Those dictionary references you're using are problematic because there are no references to any primary sources. Who knows where they came up with their conclusions. The good thing about "DDD" are the references to primary sources (which is to be expected from people like van der Toorn), and it's more thorough.
Tammuz is a corruption of the name "Dumuzi," and he functioned as a mix between a shepherd, agricultural deity, and fertility deity. In some texts, Dumuzi even makes requests to the sun god, indicating that he's definitely not a sun god (Dumuzi's Dream).
So I'm not sure how your references reached their conclusions, but it appears to be incorrect.
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