Will Christ set up His literal Kingdom on earth in the future?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
Here's the proof:
That stretches the Great Tribulation over a period of more that 2,000 years. And totally CONTRADICTS Christ.
You say that the period of the trib being 1900 years contradicts Jesus, but you do not offer a scripture to confirm your statement.

The great trib is from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem.

It is also known as the times of the gentiles (ToG's) and the trampling of Jerusalem.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,055
36
48
You say that the period of the trib being 1900 years contradicts Jesus, but you do not offer a scripture to confirm your statement.

The great trib is from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem.

It is also known as the times of the gentiles (ToG's) and the trampling of Jerusalem.

I really do not know how Jesus can be any more clearer about the amount of time the Great Tribulation will be. It is the last half of Daniel's 70th week, 42 months, 1280 days and 3.5 years and times, times and half of times.


All are equal to three and one half years.. I spelled it out as it seems there is a problem on this forum reading numbers in Revelation!
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,467
144
63
57
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world.

If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that
I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

-the first world or age

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

-the second - this current world or age

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

-the third- the world to come or age [future to come]


Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed
heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [plural]


3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
-

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully,
and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;
and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against [the Prince of princes]; but he shall be broken without hand.
-

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ,
and He shall reign forever and ever!”
 
Last edited:

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
There are many Christians who erroneously believe that the second coming of Christ was accomplished in AD 70,

Jesus returned and destroyed Jerusalem with the armies of Rome. But it was not a resurrection coming, that has yet to come. Jesus came and appeared many times after His resurrection, but they were not resurrection comings.


and that He has already established His Kingdom on earth.
The kingdom of Israel was established on Pentecost. John said that he was in the kingdom in Rev 1:9.


That this idea is completely delusional is proven by the history of the world since that time, as well as the evil which we see happen
You think that the unbelieving world will give up sin and violence?


ing worldwide daily, and even as we speak. If this is evidence of Christ’s Kingdom, then the one who gets the last laugh is Satan.


The evidence of the kingdom is you and I, and others who believe and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Becoming Christians even though the penalty may be death.


There are some other Christians who believe that Christ’s eternal Kingdom is strictly spiritual and invisible, and that is all there is to it.
It is a spiritual kingdom, yes?


This too has no support in Scripture, since it ignores all the prophecies related to this subject.
No prophecies/scriptures should be ignored. Maybe they are seen from a little different point of view, with a little different understanding.


The Bible is very clear that the Lord Jesus Christ – the Son of Man – will one day destroy all the kingdoms of this world
Agreed


and establish His own Kingdom on earth, with universal peace, justice and righteousness, and His saints will reign with Him.
This is fulfilled in the kingdom right now. But in the unbelievers world Satan in still their god.

Universal peace? Unbelievers will obey Jesus, whether they know Him or not? Unbelievers will have the Holy Spirit without accepting Jesus?


We see an intimation of this in the prophecy of Daniel, but all the prophets testify that this is to become a reality after His second Coming.
Not on this material planet.
================================================

Daniel 2:34,35,44,45

Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king... And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Daniel 7:13,14,18,21,22,26,27
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed... But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever... I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom... But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

How should we interpret Daniel in the light of the rest of Scripture?

1. The Ancient of Days is God the Father. and the Son of Man is Christ the Son.
Yes

2. The Stone cut out of the mountain is the Stone which the builders reject – Christ the Solid Rock.
Yes, but there is more to the stone than just this.


3 God sets up His Kingdom with Christ as the King over “the whole earth”, while the saints of the most High also possess this Kingdom.
The kingdom was established on Pentecost, that is not the stone striking. The stone striking is where Jesus comes for the kingdom at the harvest, long after the kingdom is established (7th trumpet). The kingdom is established shortly after the iron Roman nation begins on the statue. Before the Roman empire divides at the legs.

Maybe you are thinking that the "whole earth" means planet, but it is the world/earth of Israel.


4. All other kingdoms of the world are destroyed,
When the stone strikes, yes. This shows that when Jesus comes at the #2 resurrection, then it is the end when death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.


and all dominions “shall serve and obey Him” (Christ)...
“And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed”.
There comes a time when this world ends in fire, when the stone strikes. After that we will be in judgment, the wheat and chaff, where the chaff is blown away and no place is found for them. Then the stone fills the earth, Jesus becomes the new earth. When the stone fills the earth, then there is no place for the old earth. The new earth is the eternal earth.

If you say that the stone striking is the mill, then all the chaff is not blown away. there is still chaff to rebel at the end of the mill period.


The above prophecy makes it clear that this will be a real, literal,


The kingdom is real and literally a kingdom, but His kingdom is not of this world.


visible, tangible Kingdom
The kingdom of God is within us. Go to church, that's about as visible and tangible as your going to get.

Will we see His face in the mill period? When He comes in His glory? Will the world see His face? Unbelievers?


in which Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords, and rules the earth with a “rod of iron”
. Daniel said that “the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure” which means that you can take it to the bank.
He rules the kingdom with a rod of iron right now. Oh, you thought it meant the planet earth, no, it's the earth of Israel, the Pentecost gospel kingdom.


While the initial phase of that Kingdom will be the Millennium (1,000 years), it will not end there.
The mill kingdom is now. Between the # 1 resurrection of Jesus in 33 ad, and the #2 resurrection yet to come, after that it is the end where death is destroyed..


After the New Heavens and the New Earth are brought into existence, God will have His eternal Kingdom on earth
It will not be a material earth like this one, this one is not eternal.


(and throughout the universe) with Christ as the King. That is because all authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to Him.
After this hvn and earth pass, there will be nothing that corrupts left, no lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the vain pride of life, those things are passing away.

This universe will pass from memory also. There will be no more darkness.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,055
36
48

Jesus returned and destroyed Jerusalem with the armies of Rome. But it was not a resurrection coming, that has yet to come. Jesus came and appeared many times after His resurrection, but they were not resurrection comings.




The kingdom of Israel was established on Pentecost. John said that he was in the kingdom in Rev 1:9.




You think that the unbelieving world will give up sin and violence?




The evidence of the kingdom is you and I, and others who believe and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Becoming Christians even though the penalty may be death.




It is a spiritual kingdom, yes?




No prophecies/scriptures should be ignored. Maybe they are seen from a little different point of view, with a little different understanding.




Agreed




This is fulfilled in the kingdom right now. But in the unbelievers world Satan in still their god.

Universal peace? Unbelievers will obey Jesus, whether they know Him or not? Unbelievers will have the Holy Spirit without accepting Jesus?




Not on this material planet.
================================================

Daniel 2:34,35,44,45

Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king... And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Daniel 7:13,14,18,21,22,26,27
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed... But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever... I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom... But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.



Yes



Yes, but there is more to the stone than just this.




The kingdom was established on Pentecost, that is not the stone striking. The stone striking is where Jesus comes for the kingdom at the harvest, long after the kingdom is established (7th trumpet). The kingdom is established shortly after the iron Roman nation begins on the statue. Before the Roman empire divides at the legs.

Maybe you are thinking that the "whole earth" means planet, but it is the world/earth of Israel.




When the stone strikes, yes. This shows that when Jesus comes at the #2 resurrection, then it is the end when death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.




There comes a time when this world ends in fire, when the stone strikes. After that we will be in judgment, the wheat and chaff, where the chaff is blown away and no place is found for them. Then the stone fills the earth, Jesus becomes the new earth. When the stone fills the earth, then there is no place for the old earth. The new earth is the eternal earth.

If you say that the stone striking is the mill, then all the chaff is not blown away. there is still chaff to rebel at the end of the mill period.



The kingdom is real and literally a kingdom, but His kingdom is not of this world.




The kingdom of God is within us. Go to church, that's about as visible and tangible as your going to get.

Will we see His face in the mill period? When He comes in His glory? Will the world see His face? Unbelievers?




He rules the kingdom with a rod of iron right now. Oh, you thought it meant the planet earth, no, it's the earth of Israel, the Pentecost gospel kingdom.




The mill kingdom is now. Between the # 1 resurrection of Jesus in 33 ad, and the #2 resurrection yet to come, after that it is the end where death is destroyed..




It will not be a material earth like this one, this one is not eternal.




After this hvn and earth pass, there will be nothing that corrupts left, no lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the vain pride of life, those things are passing away.

This universe will pass from memory also. There will be no more darkness.

I like your way of convincing people.......write so much that no body bothers reading it. Hollow words.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
I really do not know how Jesus can be any more clearer about the amount of time the Great Tribulation will be. It is the last half of Daniel's 70th week, 42 months, 1280 days and 3.5 years and times, times and half of times.


All are equal to three and one half years.. I spelled it out as it seems there is a problem on this forum reading numbers in Revelation!
Brother Br,

The 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.

This is proven by the angel in Dan 12:7, who says that the time from Babylon until the scattering of 70 ad is the first 3 1/2 times. Far longer that 3 1/2 years.

The times in Rev are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages. The times are symbolized as days and months to show that the 2W's and the woman of ch 12 are in the wilderness of the gentile nations for the same amount of time. That is the 2nd 3 1/2 times from 70ad until 1967.

The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,055
36
48
Brother Br,

The 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.

This is proven by the angel in Dan 12:7, who says that the time from Babylon until the scattering of 70 ad is the first 3 1/2 times. Far longer that 3 1/2 years.

The times in Rev are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages. The times are symbolized as days and months to show that the 2W's and the woman of ch 12 are in the wilderness of the gentile nations for the same amount of time. That is the 2nd 3 1/2 times from 70ad until 1967.

The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks.
Now, I rem why I block you out. Good Day!
Blade
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
I like your way of convincing people.......write so much that no body bothers reading it. Hollow words.
I was replying to the OP. If you think that the OP was too long tell him.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
Now, I rem why I block you out. Good Day!
Blade
Can't handle the truth? Can't respond to confirm what you say?

I must be right, and you know it, that's why you run away.

I don't block anyone.

You are free to ignore the truth if you want to.

Brother Br.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,055
36
48
Can't handle the truth? Can't respond to confirm what you say?

I must be right, and you know it, that's why you run away.

I don't block anyone.

You are free to ignore the truth if you want to.

Brother Br.
Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
Brother Br,

The 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.

This is proven by the angel in Dan 12:7, who says that the time from Babylon until the scattering of 70 ad is the first 3 1/2 times. Far longer that 3 1/2 years.

The times in Rev are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages. The times are symbolized as days and months to show that the 2W's and the woman of ch 12 are in the wilderness of the gentile nations for the same amount of time. That is the 2nd 3 1/2 times from 70ad until 1967.

The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks.
Alright, I'll talk to you....You misrepresented my words.

Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
I really do not know how Jesus can be any more clearer about the amount of time the Great Tribulation will be. It is the last half of Daniel's 70th week, 42 months, 1280 days and 3.5 years and times, times and half of times.

All are equal to three and one half years.. I spelled it out as it seems there is a problem on this forum reading numbers in Revelation!
You read and should have understood. 1280 Days or 3.5 years or (times,times and half times). This expression is expressed again in Dan 7. as well as Rev 12:14....... You are one of these that only want to symbolize Revelation to fit your lifestyle or worldview....By symbolizing, one can make Rev or any other book, novel, etc. say anything they want to... This is the reason why I blocked you. There is a verse in Revelation and your not going to like it. Rev 22:18-19...... I do believe if I were you I would be very careful.

Have a Blessed day

Blade\










 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,461
391
83
You say that the period of the trib being 1900 years contradicts Jesus, but you do not offer a scripture to confirm your statement.
I clearly provided the Scripture to support that, and the Great Tribulationis for only 3 1/2 years (actually even less), not centuries. It is an ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE EVENT such as has never been nor ever shall be, followed by the stars literally falling from the heaven to the earth and the heavens themselves being shaken and even disappearing. All you have to do is BELIEVE Christ, not play games with His words.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened... [NOT STRETCH OUT OVER 2,000 YEARS]

29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24)
The great trib is from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem.
In light of the Scripture quoted above, this is just nonsense. Study the history of the world.
It is also known as the times of the gentiles (ToG's) and the trampling of Jerusalem.
Now you are even more confused. The Great Tribulation has nothing to do with the times of the Gentiles. It has everything to do with the Abomination of Desolation and the blasphemous rule of the Antichrist and Satan.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
3,398
158
63
70
So you are telling Christians to simply ignore what God has said about THAT WHICH IS TO COME. Wonderful!
Last time I read Revelation it mentioned a New Heaven and a New Earth in other words a fulfillment of Gods original plan
back in Genesis before the fall.

Peter gave us some insight into the whole subject but he appears to be ignored by people on this site. Here it is.....

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and Godliness? Looking for and hasting unto the coming of God
wherein the the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat Nevertheless we according to his promise look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth
righteousness


11 Peter 3:10-13

Its interesting that Peter uses the same expression as Jesus and Paul about a Thief in the night. According to Peter when he comes as a thief the heavens and earth pass away and melt with a fervent heat. Not much room for a Pre Trib seven year rapture there or a seven year tribulation at all. Come to that not much time for a 1000 year Millennium either. God gets straight on with his new heavens and earth. Another point is that Peter calls it the day of the Lord. It will happen in one day and as we are told so often no one knows the day or the hour. People have called it judgement day for many years and that is exactly what it will be.
 
Last edited:

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
6,994
275
83
Not much room for a Pre Trib seven year rapture there or a seven year tribulation at all.


According to what you are suggesting, there wouldn't be any time for a millennial kingdom either! This would have Jesus returning to the earth and then destroying it, and then going right to the great white throne judgment and the new heaven and new earth.

"
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found."

I believe that in the scripture above, that Peter is generalizing and not giving a play by play report. Therefore, the "day of the Lord" will come like a thief in the night, but the heavens disappearing, the elements melting, etc., do not come like a thief in the night, but take place after the millennial kingdom. This is why it is good to cross-reference and compare scripture.

For example, according to scripture we know that after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age (second coming) a thousand year period is going to follow and therefore we can know that Peter cannot be talking about the heavens disappearing and the elements melting right when the Lord returns. It would also cancel out other prophesies such as the Lord settling disputes for many nations and the nations beating their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and not training for war any more, as well as many other prophesies.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
Alright, I'll talk to you....You misrepresented my words.



You read and should have understood. 1280 Days or 3.5 years or (times,times and half times).


Brother Br,

This 3 1/2 times-7 times, as you know, is seen in Daniel 4:1-37, 16, 23, 25, 32.

The exact time in the years/months/days of this passage cannot be determined, as far as I can tell.
It may be that it was not an even number in the time measure by men. That is, that the 7 times in the eyes of men may have been 8 months, 4 days, and 10 hours for example. So it is a time period set by God which is not necessarily conforming to the time as measured by men.

The 7 times would be the whole time period, what ever it was, from beginning to end.


This expression is expressed again in Dan 7.
The 4th beast is the Roman Empire and it's divided Roman kingdoms. The 3 1/2 times mentioned here is the time from 70 ad until 1967, which is the second 3 1/2 times.


Understand this, the Roman Empire beast nation rules over Israel until the last horn loses power over the holy people. (The end of the iron in the statue.)


In Rev 17:11, "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

What it is saying is, that the eighth horn is also the original beast that was, an extension of the beast nation.

So it is showing that the 3 1/2 times given to the horn of Daniel 7, actually begins long before the appearance of the 8th horn, because he is the beast that was. So the time runs from the original Roman Empire, until the last horn loses power over the people of Israel. 70 ad until 1967.

Also see how the 3 1/2 times is given to the sea beast in Rev 13:5, (as 42 months, the same as the 2W's). But the sea beast dies, then the earth beast continues for the rest of the time of the power over Israel. The Roman Empire iron legs nation.

So the 3 1/2 times, spans the time of the Roman Empire until it is divided and the power over Israel ends when Jerusalem is restored.


as well as Rev 12:14.......
This is showing Israel fleeing from the Roman iron dragon nation into the wilderness of the gentile nations. The time of fleeing begins when Jerusalem is surrounded and ends when Israel returns to restore Jerusalem ending the ToG's. 70 ad-1967.


You are one of these that only want to symbolize Revelation to fit your lifestyle or worldview....By symbolizing, one can make Rev or any other book, novel, etc. say anything they want to...
The only confirmation of the meaning of the symbols is in the Bible. You can't just make up the meaning. The Bible tells what the symbols mean. The waters are peoples Rev 17:15. Jer 17:13 God is the fountain of living waters.


This is the reason why I blocked you. There is a verse in Revelation and your not going to like it. Rev 22:18-19...... I do believe if I were you I would be very careful.

Have a Blessed day

Blade\
Brother Br,

There
is a difference between not knowing the truth, and fighting against the truth once you know it.

If men seek the truth, but God does not reveal it to them, is that a sin? Because men read prophecies, and do their best to understand, but cannot, because the time to reveal the meaning has not come yet?

When the meaning of the prophecies is revealed, men will have to leave the traditional understandings.(The earth is not flat.)





 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
3,398
158
63
70


According to what you are suggesting, there wouldn't be any time for a millennial kingdom either! This would have Jesus returning to the earth and then destroying it, and then going right to the great white throne judgment and the new heaven and new earth.

"
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found."

I believe that in the scripture above, that Peter is generalizing and not giving a play by play report. Therefore, the "day of the Lord" will come like a thief in the night, but the heavens disappearing, the elements melting, etc., do not come like a thief in the night, but take place after the millennial kingdom. This is why it is good to cross-reference and compare scripture.

For example, according to scripture we know that after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age (second coming) a thousand year period is going to follow and therefore we can know that Peter cannot be talking about the heavens disappearing and the elements melting right when the Lord returns. It would also cancel out other prophesies such as the Lord settling disputes for many nations and the nations beating their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and not training for war any more, as well as many other prophesies.
There you go again. I agree that its good to cross reference scripture. What isn't good is to try and make it fit your pre conceived ideas as to what it means. This is a plain statement by Peter which leads from his condemnation of those who mock the belief in the second coming. The fact that he uses the very same phrase as Paul shows that he is not making a General statement. Paul also states that sudden destruction will fall on unbelievers at Christs coming as a thief. The OT references like the Swords and Plough Shear example can just as easily be applied to the new earth. Peter states that we are supposed to be looking forward to new heavens and a new earth not a 1000 year Millennium which is only mentioned once in the Bible and then in a highly symbolic filled book. Going back to the Sword and Plowshare example Revelation states that the Nations of the world rebel again so any mention about Swords and Plowshares seems at odds with this, if you take the Millennium literally.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
I clearly provided the Scripture to support that, and the Great Tribulationis for only 3 1/2 years (actually even less), not centuries.
See post 194.

It is an ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE EVENT such as has never been nor ever shall be, followed by the stars literally falling from the heaven to the earth and the heavens themselves being shaken and even disappearing. All you have to do is BELIEVE Christ, not play games with His words.
Rev 6:12-17, the 6th seal. This is Jesus coming to destroy Jerusalem in 66-70 ad. Confirmed by LK 23:30.

Literal stars? like suns? or symbolic of Israelites? The "heavens" depart? or God's protection over Jerusalem?

And if all the stars fall, how can they be seen in the 4th trumpet, if the "heavens" are gone and the stars have fallen? If the heavens have departed at the 6th seal and the stars have fallen, then they must have come back again, if it is literal.


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
70 ad-1967


And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:


The flesh is Israel, not the planet

but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened... [NOT STRETCH OUT OVER 2,000 YEARS]
If WW2 had not ended, the people of Israel would have been wiped out.


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24)
This takes place at the end of the ToG's when Israel is returning out of the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem. At the end of the 3 1/2 times 70 ad-1967.


In light of the Scripture quoted above, this is just nonsense. Study the history of the world.

Now you are even more confused. The Great Tribulation has nothing to do with the times of the Gentiles. It has everything to do with the Abomination of Desolation and the blasphemous rule of the Antichrist and Satan.
Brother N6,

The Times of the Gentiles is the Great Tribulation. It lasted from 70 ad until 1967.

This is the time that the Roman iron beast nation ruled over Israel until they were restored to military control over Jerusalem. NO GAPS in the legs/toes of the statue in Dan. 2.

The Antichrist was revealed at the destruction of Jerusalem in the 70 ad time period to be Caesar.

Caesar has ruled and persecuted the people of Israel for the last 2000 years, no gap in the iron legs/toes.
 
Mar 10, 2013
329
12
0
I havent read throu this thread, i dont have the time. I did read the post. You need to do more thorough research. Read the parables and you will know the kingdom is here. It is now, as it is written, forceful men are taking hold of it and forcing their way in. What is the kingdom of God like? lets just examine one parable of the dozens your point of view neglect entirely.

“A farmer went out to sow his seed. [SUP]4 [/SUP]As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

duh, the kingdom of God is here now. The entire gospel message Jesus preached was go and preach the GOOD news about the kingdom, which Jesus said is "AT HAND"

It is written at the end of the age, the weeds will be gathered to be burned but the wheat God will gather into his barn.

What you fail to comprehend is that,
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it
.

If evil were not within the kingdom, why would God say, the weeds will be gathered and burned, and say the kingdom of God is like that???

Brother, go to biblegateway.com search the word kingdom. Go through every single passage in context. It is an amazing study. then adjust what you believe to fit into all those passages. What you are thinking is a small part of the whole picture. God gave you the picture, look at the entire thing then come back and speak the truth in love.
[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,104
35
48
Acts 21:18(elders also) the question is this though why would Paul,James,the elders ect. think to be "purified" in a temple that was done away at the cross 20-30 years after the cross? We can see it one way but they acted as if it still meant something as if it had not yet been removed.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

By keeping the law to satisfy God for any reason is to frustrate God.

Righteousness does not come by keeping the law and never has, because we are all sinners and all have failed to keep it perfect. Jesus the thing that the laws all pointed to made an end of the sacrifices and offerings, because we can look straight to Christ without some animal symbol or earthly symbol. Jesus is my lamb, He is my high Priest and my body is the temple.

One thing that Jesus tried to point out when He was here was that we should stop looking to the physical and look to the spiritual. The time that the sacrifices and offerings became useless was when Jesus fulfilled them.

Why did Paul go to the temple or visit (participate) in the feasts 20 years after the Cross? Because it was the best way to witness to the Jews "When in Rome do as the Romans do". He gathered with the people to witness for Jesus.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, ...
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, ....
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: (Literal water and Spiritual water)
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. .....
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Samaraitans couldn't worship God in Jerusalem, but rear where they were standing was a temple that they did worship in, and she wanted to know where was the best place to worship God.



Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (Both temples were destroyed.)
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. (the Jews were Gods people and understood God best, the samaritans still had some idols that they worshiped).
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It isn't about the temple and the sacrifices and the outward keeping of things but being filled with the Spirit that counts.

The had come when true worshiper would worship God in Spirit and Truth, It is the same Today, Building a temple would be an insult when Jesus just wants to live in our hearts.

1Pe_3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
2Co_3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.



Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Lets not lift up the things of this world and try to create a worldly temple for Jesus to dwell in, when He wants to live in our hearts. Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned and and this business about creating worldly temples and worldly governments is not part of Gods plan.

Jesus owns this world and,

one day will rule this world, but as it is, the majority of the world worship other Gods and when Jesus rules everyone will worship Him. When Satan, sin, death and every unsaved person is destroyed, than Jesus will set up and rule this world.
 
Aug 7, 2016
203
7
0
When you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the kingdom of heaven indwells in you, the kingdom is here with you now.

No need in waiting or debating if it is here with you or not. Just gotta open your eyes to see it, and may the Lord Jesus Christ do that for you.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
6,994
275
83
When you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the kingdom of heaven indwells in you, the kingdom is here with you now.


MattG, your on-going error is that by your claim that "the kingdom of heaven indwells you" is an attempt to do away with the literal promise that the Lord made to all believers when he said that He was going to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for all believers and that he was coming back to gather us and take us back there, that where He is we may be also.

This is the destruction of preterism, which distorts the truth of God's word.