Without regards to reward or consequence?

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CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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#1
Salvation’s bonus is eternal security, sure. Our eternal condition should start now, though. Our future’s security brings great peace and hope. However, we see in the Old Testament how the focus was put on our lives on earth, that the rewards were focused on our time on earth, not to be obtained later. In other words, the thought of being cut off (karet) from God had to do with our time on earth, day to day, where losing our security in the everafter is where many modern Christians focus.

Taking away, completely, the idea of eternal security, is obedience still important? I think so....not because we have something to lose or to gain; but instead because we Love the Lord with all our hearts and we trust that what He wants is what is best for our own good.

Does it matter what is to come, if we love Him and others as we are called today, regardless? Should we seek to keep His word because we are His, period, without regards to reward or consequence?

I know that faith get's us home, and that the Kingdom of God is a state of Him, that produces His righteousness in us, not our own. I know that I will always need His Grace and that I can lean into His unconditional Love. I just want to reach my soul to Him, for selfless, unconditional, reasons.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,601
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#2
What comes to mind in the OT was Daniel. He was under Babylonian rule yet still kept his faith in God even though the consequences of worshipping God almighty instead of idols was dire. He got thrown in the lions den! Is obedience important, well to whom are we obedient...God or man?

What about when king nebuchadnezzar told shadrach, misach and abednego to worship the idols and if they did not they would get thrown in the fiery furnace. What did they say, we wont bow down to your idols. They knew God would deliver them, and declared this, but even if not, they still would not bow down to those idols.

Note.,.even if not. Were they saying...if God didnt deliver them...or were they saying if they werent going to be thrown into the fire?

Wow whichever way...what great faith.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,210
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#3
What comes to mind in the OT was Daniel. He was under Babylonian rule yet still kept his faith in God even though the consequences of worshipping God almighty instead of idols was dire. He got thrown in the lions den! Is obedience important, well to whom are we obedient...God or man?

What about when king nebuchadnezzar told shadrach, misach and abednego to worship the idols and if they did not they would get thrown in the fiery furnace. What did they say, we wont bow down to your idols. They knew God would deliver them, and declared this, but even if not, they still would not bow down to those idols.

Note.,.even if not. Were they saying...if God didnt deliver them...or were they saying if they werent going to be thrown into the fire?

Wow whichever way...what great faith.
Oh good point made, what great faith...♡
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
#4
What comes to mind in the OT was Daniel. He was under Babylonian rule yet still kept his faith in God even though the consequences of worshipping God almighty instead of idols was dire. He got thrown in the lions den! Is obedience important, well to whom are we obedient...God or man?

What about when king nebuchadnezzar told shadrach, misach and abednego to worship the idols and if they did not they would get thrown in the fiery furnace. What did they say, we wont bow down to your idols. They knew God would deliver them, and declared this, but even if not, they still would not bow down to those idols.

Note.,.even if not. Were they saying...if God didnt deliver them...or were they saying if they werent going to be thrown into the fire?

Wow whichever way...what great faith.
You might want to check your facts.....COULD is the word....not WOULD.......is able to deliver is not knew God would deliver them.....just saying........

If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
#5
Most who deny eternal security will falsely accuse and say that we teach that we can live however we want, do what we want and never be obedient and that is false....Of course all genuine believers will be obedient to some extent.....some more than others....My view is as follows...

Salvation

a. Irrevocable free gift resulting in eternal life, born again from above by incorruptible seed, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, saved to the uttermost by 100% grace through faith that JESUS begins, finishes and completes. We are held by his hand, the Father's hand and he will lose none, but rather raise them up the last day. Sin in a believer can hinder and or break fellowship, but our standing as a child of God is secure. Sin also is covered by the out bounding grace of God and his mercy endures forever. If we do not get right with God after a time he will whip the fire (chastisement ) out of us to yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness. If we fail to yield God can if he so chooses bring us home early.

Obedience after one has been saved

Through a process of ongoing sanctification and transformation as described in Romans 12:1-2 we will become more obedient to the word. The outside actions will change because of the inward growth of the born again spirit. This process is subject to successes and or failures depending on the level of teaching we get and or how we apply the word....The ensuing result is rewards which comes from the word MISTHOS and = pay or wages rendered for service. I believe we all have a preset inheritance in Christ which is based upon God's foreknowledge of our service and we can add to this inheritance and or burn it through riotous living and rebellion. On top of these rewards we can earn from one to five crowns based upon extreme faithfulness and or the love of God and his appearing.

The prodigal son, 1st Corinthians 3 with works burnt or purified etc. all point to the above conclusions.......
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
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113
#6
Salvation’s bonus is eternal security, sure. Our eternal condition should start now, though. Our future’s security brings great peace and hope. However, we see in the Old Testament how the focus was put on our lives on earth, that the rewards were focused on our time on earth, not to be obtained later. In other words, the thought of being cut off (karet) from God had to do with our time on earth, day to day, where losing our security in the everafter is where many modern Christians focus.

Taking away, completely, the idea of eternal security, is obedience still important? I think so....not because we have something to lose or to gain; but instead because we Love the Lord with all our hearts and we trust that what He wants is what is best for our own good.

Does it matter what is to come, if we love Him and others as we are called today, regardless? Should we seek to keep His word because we are His, period, without regards to reward or consequence?

I know that faith get's us home, and that the Kingdom of God is a state of Him, that produces His righteousness in us, not our own. I know that I will always need His Grace and that I can lean into His unconditional Love. I just want to reach my soul to Him, for selfless, unconditional, reasons.
So far I've only read your post here Charli so if others have posted the same thing, then just overlook. :)

The word you are trying to describe is kareth , not karet. It does mean cut off but you are reading more into Jewish thought than there is by this word. It's a form of punishment by either death, or being cut off from the people. It doesn't mean cut off eternally from God.

Your last sentence...I just want to reach my soul to Him, for selfless, unconditional reasons.
Its sounds humble and am sure you mean well by this statement, but truth is that your "I" has been crucified. I means ego in greek. I am crucified, nevertheless I live.

Jesus has already done this for us by the circumcision of unseen hands. To be humble in truth means to bend your mind to the Word. Believe....always goes back to faith doesn't it? Will you be humble enough to receive completed salvation by the Lord? Finished!

Actually I know you will come to this when your thoughts are in unity with the Word. It's His goal for us all.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
971
113
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#7
Salvation’s bonus is eternal security, sure. Our eternal condition should start now, though. Our future’s security brings great peace and hope. However, we see in the Old Testament how the focus was put on our lives on earth, that the rewards were focused on our time on earth, not to be obtained later. In other words, the thought of being cut off (karet) from God had to do with our time on earth, day to day, where losing our security in the everafter is where many modern Christians focus.

Taking away, completely, the idea of eternal security, is obedience still important? I think so....not because we have something to lose or to gain; but instead because we Love the Lord with all our hearts and we trust that what He wants is what is best for our own good.

Does it matter what is to come, if we love Him and others as we are called today, regardless? Should we seek to keep His word because we are His, period, without regards to reward or consequence?

I know that faith get's us home, and that the Kingdom of God is a state of Him, that produces His righteousness in us, not our own. I know that I will always need His Grace and that I can lean into His unconditional Love. I just want to reach my soul to Him, for selfless, unconditional, reasons.
Even in the sacrifice of Christ was there found reward for God. He endured the cross with the joy set before Him. There is no issue with gain. This idea of selflessness can at times be pious or religious in terms of self-righteousness. Not that I would judge your heart, rather I would discuss this mindset.

It is beautiful that you wish to serve God, honor Him, and carry out His will. Remember however His word. We must believe He is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. He gives rewards! If self-interest was so bad, why would God grant blessings for carrying out certain acts in secret (prayer, giving, fasting, etc)?

Obedience comes from a place of gratitude. We mustn't put eternal security aside, because it adds to that gratitude that expresses itself in our walk of faith.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,601
4,510
113
#8
You might want to check your facts.....COULD is the word....not WOULD.......is able to deliver is not knew God would deliver them.....just saying........

If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
You might want to check your Bible, which you quoted ...it says WILL. he will deliver us. Not he could, not he might, he WILL deliver us. He WILL. he is Able. Our God is able!

Will is the future tense of would. I am referring to the fact that he actually DID and the three men knew he would and had faith He would. Even if He did not, because He would choose not to, it would not be that he cant, or couldnt't it would be he didnt choose to. There is NOTHING that our God cannot do.

I made that very important distinction in case you missed it.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,601
4,510
113
#9
The reward, may not even be for ourselves, the reward is God gets the glory. The blessing may not fall to us personally. The blessings may actually fall to the people around us. Soleley because it pleases Him.

Jesus was not obeying the Father simply because he would get to sit on the throne at the right hand of God. He laid down his life for US. Jesus didnt want to be all by himself in heaven. He wanted all of Israel and mankind to be there too. Also, showing satan a thing or two! Defeating evil, now how can that be selfish? By doing good you are outshining darkness and evil everywhere you go.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,210
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113
#10
So far I've only read your post here Charli so if others have posted the same thing, then just overlook. :)

The word you are trying to describe is kareth , not karet. It does mean cut off but you are reading more into Jewish thought than there is by this word. It's a form of punishment by either death, or being cut off from the people. It doesn't mean cut off eternally from God.

Your last sentence...I just want to reach my soul to Him, for selfless, unconditional reasons.
Its sounds humble and am sure you mean well by this statement, but truth is that your "I" has been crucified. I means ego in greek. I am crucified, nevertheless I live.

Jesus has already done this for us by the circumcision of unseen hands. To be humble in truth means to bend your mind to the Word. Believe....always goes back to faith doesn't it? Will you be humble enough to receive completed salvation by the Lord? Finished!

Actually I know you will come to this when your thoughts are in unity with the Word. It's His goal for us all.
Thanks for feedback, much appreciated...Didn't the hebrew of that time think or know in terms of eternal as much as we do now? I am so glad that you helped me with the word Kareth. I still am not sure what the difference is between those two words, but i am researching.

I do agree with the I point you made, that perhaps their should be no more I in regards to my faith, but then again...

Make glad the soul of Your servant, For to You, O Lord, I lift up my soul.
Psalms 86:4 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.86.4.NASB
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,210
6,784
113
#11
The reward, may not even be for ourselves, the reward is God gets the glory. The blessing may not fall to us personally. The blessings may actually fall to the people around us. Soleley because it pleases Him.

Jesus was not obeying the Father simply because he would get to sit on the throne at the right hand of God. He laid down his life for US. Jesus didnt want to be all by himself in heaven. He wanted all of Israel and mankind to be there too. Also, showing satan a thing or two! Defeating evil, now how can that be selfish? By doing good you are outshining darkness and evil everywhere you go.
Yes yes yes...:) and all in Him.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,210
6,784
113
#12
Even in the sacrifice of Christ was there found reward for God. He endured the cross with the joy set before Him. There is no issue with gain. This idea of selflessness can at times be pious or religious in terms of self-righteousness. Not that I would judge your heart, rather I would discuss this mindset.

It is beautiful that you wish to serve God, honor Him, and carry out His will. Remember however His word. We must believe He is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. He gives rewards! If self-interest was so bad, why would God grant blessings for carrying out certain acts in secret (prayer, giving, fasting, etc)?

Obedience comes from a place of gratitude. We mustn't put eternal security aside, because it adds to that gratitude that expresses itself in our walk of faith.
Yeah, I really can't argue that. Solid as can be. I guess that I just read, over and over the debate of faith verses works and to me they go together, that the concern should not be securing our salvation as much as just walking humbly with Him every day because we are His people.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
971
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#13
Yeah, I really can't argue that. Solid as can be. I guess that I just read, over and over the debate of faith verses works and to me they go together, that the concern should not be securing our salvation as much as just walking humbly with Him every day because we are His people.
Can't argue with that either. We are saved unto good works (scripture says). The Gospel is about our reconciliation to God, so the emphasis you're placing on walking humbly with Him is so very important. There is a relationship to be shared.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
1,811
113
#14
Thanks for feedback, much appreciated...Didn't the hebrew of that time think or know in terms of eternal as much as we do now? I am so glad that you helped me with the word Kareth. I still am not sure what the difference is between those two words, but i am researching.

I do agree with the I point you made, that perhaps their should be no more I in regards to my faith, but then again...

Make glad the soul of Your servant, For to You, O Lord, I lift up my soul.
Psalms 86:4 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.86.4.NASB


The difference between old testament and new testament thinking is greatly divided Charli.

For one thing...no one went to heaven upon death under that old covenant. There was hell that was divided. One side for the wicked, the other for those in the bosom of Abraham. It's my belief that Jesus went to Abrahams bosom and preached, not to the wicked. The wicked is more wicked than we think. ;) Not going to go there though.

Another, we know that man is a triune being. I don't believe it was known under the old covenant but would have to research this myself for surety. I can't see how they would know since Holy Spirit wasn't inner but only upon them for empowering. God was behind the veil.

So, for eternity....eternal salvation.....our spirit is sealed. Our soul, the part of us that makes us who we are, is that which needs saved. Not so for old covenant. The Word seperates spirit from flesh. Jesus the Word seperates what is humanity and what is of Him. Understanding brings our soul into unity with Spirit.

Understanding these things could help you in the subject of eternal security.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
#15
You might want to check your Bible, which you quoted ...it says WILL. he will deliver us. Not he could, not he might, he WILL deliver us. He WILL. he is Able. Our God is able!

Will is the future tense of would. I am referring to the fact that he actually DID and the three men knew he would and had faith He would. Even if He did not, because He would choose not to, it would not be that he cant, or couldnt't it would be he didnt choose to. There is NOTHING that our God cannot do.

I made that very important distinction in case you missed it.
Umm...I cut and pasted the direct quote....and that latter statement proves the first....why is it that people cannot just take the truth and make it right? It did not say what you are embellishing it to say........just get honest man..........end of story!
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,210
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#16
The difference between old testament and new testament thinking is greatly divided Charli.

For one thing...no one went to heaven upon death under that old covenant. There was hell that was divided. One side for the wicked, the other for those in the bosom of Abraham. It's my belief that Jesus went to Abrahams bosom and preached, not to the wicked. The wicked is more wicked than we think. ;) Not going to go there though.

Another, we know that man is a triune being. I don't believe it was known under the old covenant but would have to research this myself for surety. I can't see how they would know since Holy Spirit wasn't inner but only upon them for empowering. God was behind the veil.

So, for eternity....eternal salvation.....our spirit is sealed. Our soul, the part of us that makes us who we are, is that which needs saved. Not so for old covenant. The Word seperates spirit from flesh. Jesus the Word seperates what is humanity and what is of Him. Understanding brings our soul into unity with Spirit.

Understanding these things could help you in the subject of eternal security.
For me, the eternal security is secondary to giving ourselves, surrendering fully, to Him, loving Him and others as we are called, right now, all in Him.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,601
4,510
113
#17
Umm...I cut and pasted the direct quote....and that latter statement proves the first....why is it that people cannot just take the truth and make it right? It did not say what you are embellishing it to say........just get honest man..........end of story!
Because you didnt read what I wrote, didnt read what the bible said, and tried to make out like i misquoted or misunderstood it.

Nope. I am not embellishing it. At all. PLease stop this nonsense right now I notice you do that with everyone trying to correct their posts that you didnt understand or read in the first place.you only read what you put in bold and not the entire scripture.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,210
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#18
I want to expand on what I said to stone. Salvation is NOT secondary that is not what I meant, but i think you realize what I was saying.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#19
I want to expand on what I said to stone. Salvation is NOT secondary that is not what I meant, but i think you realize what I was saying.
It goes back to what Paul said with all of his analogies on not having love. You have salvation, and this is a most cherished reality, yet do you wish to live out what God has put in you.

Eternity is the end goal (which really is only the beginning), but what do we have now to do? What is the significance of our actions in this life? Does any of it really matter?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
#20
Because you didnt read what I wrote, didnt read what the bible said, and tried to make out like i misquoted or misunderstood it.

Nope. I am not embellishing it. At all. PLease stop this nonsense right now I notice you do that with everyone trying to correct their posts that you didnt understand or read in the first place.you only read what you put in bold and not the entire scripture.
Wrong again...I read everything you said.....look up the word Honesty...........!!

Here is what YOU SAID...

Lanolin said:
What comes to mind in the OT was Daniel. He was under Babylonian rule yet still kept his faith in God even though the consequences of worshipping God almighty instead of idols was dire. He got thrown in the lions den! Is obedience important, well to whom are we obedient...God or man?

What about when king nebuchadnezzar told shadrach, misach and abednego to worship the idols and if they did not they would get thrown in the fiery furnace. What did they say, we wont bow down to your idols. They knew God would deliver them, and declared this, but even if not, they still would not bow down to those idols.

Note.,.even if not. Were they saying...if God didnt deliver them...or were they saying if they werent going to be thrown into the fire?

Wow whichever way...what great faith.



AND MY REPLY WHICH WAS CORRECT...THEY DID NOT KNOW HE WOULD....THEY KNEW HE COULD and their is a DIFFERENCE...

You might want to check your facts.....COULD is the word....not WOULD.......is able to deliver is not knew God would deliver them.....just saying........

If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.


WHY cannot people be honest about what they say......