woman preaachers

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Dec 12, 2013
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#81
"Husband of one wife" is in the Greek, but "he" and "his" aren't.
Believe what you want....end of story....I will not dance with one who flip flops on context when it is obvious that a man is being spoken of while the consistency of God and his use of words is rejected and or denied....
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#82
So time to look at the overseer/deacon/bishop passage in 1 Timothy 3 in depth in the Greek. I've been avoiding it because I am in a lot of pain. Really, it takes concentration to look through all the lexicons/Greek tools etc.!! I had a good idea what needed to be said but I like to back up my thoughts with actual Scripture, esp. in the Greek.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, " 1 Tim. 3:1-2 ESV

"Πιστὸς ὁλόγος· εἴτις ἐπισκοπῆςὀρέγεται, καλοῦἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ. 2 δεῖοὖν τὸν ἐπίσκοπονἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν," 1 Tim. 3:1-2 Greek

Paul notes in verse one that aspiring to be an overseer is a noble task. The word "HE" does not appear in the Greek in verse 1, but rather the verb ὀρέγεται (oregetai) which is in the present, indicative middle, 3rd person singular, meaning to stretch oneself out, to aspire, to desire; and the verb ἐπιθυμεῖ(epithumei) present indicative active, 3rd person singular, meaning "to set one's heart on, to desire."

Thus both male and female are included in this opening verse, not "he" as most translations add, simply because English needs a pronoun, which is understood in the Greek. Therefore, verse 1 could just as easily say, "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, SHE desires a noble task."

Verse 1 of 1 Tim. 3 uses ἐπισκοπῆς (ephiskopase) a feminine noun meaning:
"Office of a bishop; engagement in oversight, supervision; leader of Christian community"

Verse 2, on the other hand uses ἐπίσκοπον (ephiskonon) a masculine noun meaning:
"overseer, bishop, pastor; one who watches over something or someone; guardian, supervisor, inspector.

For the early church fathers, the word denoted function, rather than the status of anyone who who exercised supervision or control.

Then Paul begins with the men who hold the office in the next verses. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met, at least in Ephesus, including being the husband of one wife. (Aner is used here! Meaning man or husband!)

Verses 8 to 10 really gets into further qualifications for deacons, and not once is the term "he" used, which this time, the ESV gets right!

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless." 1 Tim. 3:8-10

Then using parallel instructions to the women deacons in verse 11, Paul turns to the women overseers! ESV, KJV and HCSB and other complimentarian versions translate the word γυναῖκας (guvaikas) as wives, whereas more egalitarian versions like NIV and the Message both translate this word as "women" or "deaconesses" in the USB interlinear.

However, in order to use the word "wives" the complimentarian versions, including KJV must add the word "their" which does not appear in any version of the Greek. To translate it properly using "wives" It would have to say "Wives, must likewise..."

This is somewhat like adding the word "authority" to 1 Tim. 2:12, when the word does not appear in the Greek.
By adding "their" to the mix, it implies that this is how the deacons's wives are to behave, rather than certain women who qualify for the office of deacon. Leaving it as "Wives" implies all wives in the church, and this section, I am sure everyone will agree, concerns deacons!

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

"γυναῖκας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴδιαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek

"The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 RSV

"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV

I love the way the Message puts it below, but I already hear people screaming that I even dared to use the NIV, even though it is a valid use of the word γυναῖκας! (Let alone the heretical paraphrase, The Message - sarcasm mine! And intended!)

"No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not over fond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. " 1 Tim. 3:11-12 The Message

Good hermeneutics does require that any doctrine has to be made from more than one verse, especially one which does not fall on either side of the debate. Since there are NO verses which say a woman cannot be a deacon, I want to look at a positive verse which definitively says she can be a deacon.

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, 2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2 ESV

The RSV and ESV notes footnotes that the word "servant" could alternately be "deaconess" except for the fact that Paul uses the male term, because there actually was no word for deaconess in New Testament times, including contemporaneous sources! Further, the designation "deaconess" did not develop until the late 3rd century or early 4th. So the word is either deacon, as it is in cases with the men; or servant, and then all the verses referring to men need to be translated as "servant."

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen′chre-ae," Romans 16:1 RSV

"Συνίστημι δὲὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονοντῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Greek.

Above, διάκονον or diakonon, is in the accusative case, masculine singular. Further, Paul uses the word diakonon referencing a specific place. The commendation of Paul shows he intended to designate Phoebe as serving in some important official capacity in the Cenchrean church. She was a deacon, an office to which a congregation could appoint both men and women.

So Phoebe is clearly called a deacon, thus leading the only conclusion one can draw from the 1 Tim. 3 example, that Paul is citing qualifications for men and then women.

Try and do a little cross-cultural research, besides some objective studying of the Greek!


Sources:
Danker and Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

Rogers Jr and Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament

Grenz and Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry

United Bible Societies, The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#83
As for why the translators are wrong? It's all about presuppositions. If you believe the word "deacon" cannot include women, then you will translate that way. A more objective translator, or for that matter, a translator who believes the Bible DOES support women deacons, will look at these passages, and walk away confirmed that Phoebe is a deacon, not merely a servant, and God does call women into ministry.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#84
I never said God does not use women to minister the word...the Office of a pastor over a congregation <---THE HUSBAND of one wife, HE desires a good work, HE must be blameless etc.....all masculine personal pronouns......
I'm not sure if you are grasping what the man is saying. You are reading from your translation. Your translation was translated from the Greek. He is saying those words are not in the original Greek, and he is right - they aren't. The translators added them.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#85
Aaaand...if I'd read angelas posts first I could have saved my breath! :D

We are told knowledge will increase in the time of the end. We see an example of it with this. :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#86
I'm not sure if you are grasping what the man is saying. You are reading from your translation. Your translation was translated from the Greek. He is saying those words are not in the original Greek, and he is right - they aren't. The translators added them.
The HUSBAND of one wife<--God does not promote homosexualism .....the statement is clear...end of story....to say that anyone can equal a man or woman is ridiculous when HE IMMEDIATELY qualifies with conditions...GOD does not mince words...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#88
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

VS. 2 HUSBAND <---Accusative Masculine Singular

VS. 4 HIS <---GENITIVE MASCULINE SINGULAR

Vs. 5 HIS <---Genitive Masculine Singular

VS. 6 HE <--NOTE....all 4 applications (A novice, puffed up, tied to HE might fall all tied to the Masculine)

VS. 7 He x 2

The word MAN is translated and given based upon the fact that ALL the things listed in the rest of the qualifications are tied to a MAN based upon the MASCULINE application......it is ridiculous to not follow the reasoning as to why they used if a MAN desire....the rest of the verses prove that it is a man that is being considered and NOT either or....
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#89
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

VS. 2 HUSBAND <---Accusative Masculine Singular

VS. 4 HIS <---GENITIVE MASCULINE SINGULAR

Vs. 5 HIS <---Genitive Masculine Singular

VS. 6 HE <--NOTE....all 4 applications (A novice, puffed up, tied to HE might fall all tied to the Masculine)

VS. 7 He x 2

The word MAN is translated and given based upon the fact that ALL the things listed in the rest of the qualifications are tied to a MAN based upon the MASCULINE application......it is ridiculous to not follow the reasoning as to why they used if a MAN desire....the rest of the verses prove that it is a man that is being considered and NOT either or....
Paul is not saying that -only- men can desire that office, nor that -only- men can be bishops, nor are they forbidding singles, divorcees, or women from being leaders, even though they are written from the point of view of a man. When women are ordained, the application would be the "wife of one husband," etc.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#90
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

VS. 2 HUSBAND <---Accusative Masculine Singular

VS. 4 HIS <---GENITIVE MASCULINE SINGULAR

Vs. 5 HIS <---Genitive Masculine Singular

VS. 6 HE <--NOTE....all 4 applications (A novice, puffed up, tied to HE might fall all tied to the Masculine)

VS. 7 He x 2

The word MAN is translated and given based upon the fact that ALL the things listed in the rest of the qualifications are tied to a MAN based upon the MASCULINE application......it is ridiculous to not follow the reasoning as to why they used if a MAN desire....the rest of the verses prove that it is a man that is being considered and NOT either or....

Let me keep this simple for you, because you obviously did not read my post!

All those "he's" you have - they are NOT there in the Greek! And there are words in Greek, which are masculine, feminine or neuter. That does not make them about men, women or nothing. Deacon is masculine in Greek. But, Paul uses it to describe Phoebe in Romans 16:1

Got it?? No he, his, or any of those gender words in 1 Tim. 3. They are all verbs without pronouns. NO HE"S! No HIS! Ok! Read the Greek I posted above. Or go to Biblegateway.com and read the Greek there. Or don't you read Greek? Hmm, there is your problem!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#91
Let me keep this simple for you, because you obviously did not read my post!

All those "he's" you have - they are NOT there in the Greek! And there are words in Greek, which are masculine, feminine or neuter. That does not make them about men, women or nothing. Deacon is masculine in Greek. But, Paul uses it to describe Phoebe in Romans 16:1

Got it?? No he, his, or any of those gender words in 1 Tim. 3. They are all verbs without pronouns. NO HE"S! No HIS! Ok! Read the Greek I posted above. Or go to Biblegateway.com and read the Greek there. Or don't you read Greek? Hmm, there is your problem!
We had this dance before...the only reason you disagree is because your a woman who believes she can hold the position of an overseer.....end of story....God is specific with his use of words...there are NO words in the qualifications for a pastor that allow for a woman to hold the office over men....like it or not..I could care less....God will correct all of us when we stand before him.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#92
We had this dance before...the only reason you disagree is because your a woman who believes she can hold the position of an overseer.....end of story....God is specific with his use of words...there are NO words in the qualifications for a pastor that allow for a woman to hold the office over men....like it or not..I could care less....God will correct all of us when we stand before him.
This is an unfortunately-excellent example of the genetic fallacy - dismissing an argument due to the origin of its advocate. The fact that Angela is female has nothing at all to do with her exegesis. The absence of male personal pronouns in the Greek of this passage is Paul's doing by the Holy Spirit, not Angela's doing by her own will.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#93
This is an unfortunately-excellent example of the genetic fallacy - dismissing an argument due to the origin of its advocate. The fact that Angela is female has nothing at all to do with her exegesis. The absence of male personal pronouns in the Greek of this passage is Paul's doing by the Holy Spirit, not Angela's doing by her own will.
Like I said....you guys want to believe a woman has the right to hold the office of a Bishop/Pastor...have a ball.....hahaha--> GENETIC FALLACY<--wow....what exactly does that mean?....excellent choice of words...NOT!
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#94
I'm really glad that there aren't that many places where the translation from greek to English creates a legitimate problem of such magnitude.

I'm also really glad for the scholars. Because those few translational problem areas are real doozy's as far as doctrinal issues go.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#95
"Husband of one wife" is in the Greek, but "he" and "his" aren't.
Because Greek (like my native language) does not need it. Persons are expressed by forms of words.

English does not have this feature so English must use "he/she" in the sentence to express the meaning...
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#96
Because Greek (like my native language) does not need it. Persons are expressed by forms of words.

English does not have this feature so English must use "he/she" in the sentence to express the meaning...
Jesus said if any man wants to be His disciple he must pick up his cross and follow.
So does this mean that women are not allowed to be disciples/followers?
It plainly says "man."
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#97
Jesus said if any man wants to be His disciple he must pick up his cross and follow.
So does this mean that women are not allowed to be disciples/followers?
It plainly says "man."
Yes. Too bad for women, eh?

:)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#98
Jesus said if any man wants to be His disciple he must pick up his cross and follow.
So does this mean that women are not allowed to be disciples/followers?
It plainly says "man."
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

Whoever is a good choice. I am not sure where you see plainly "man". But is not "man" in English containing both males and females?

To say "man" is ambiguous. To say "he" is specific.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#99
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

Whoever is a good choice. I am not sure where you see plainly "man". But is not "man" in English containing both males and females?
I agree. But it was originally translated from the greek as "man."
It has now been revised in many translations.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I agree. But it was originally translated from the greek as "man."
It has now been revised in many translations.
But "man" in English does not have to mean male. At least thats what they taught us in school. It can mean "human" or "whoever", so its not like "he".