Woman should not teach or assume authority over men (applies to secular????)

[mystdancer50]

I think that God is not afraid to use women in His plan and will and kingdom. I think about Jesus sitting at a well to meet with a woman that her village shunned. In that experience, the woman returned to her village and led them all to Christ...physically. "Come and meet the Man who knew everything about me!" And from there, they asked Him to remain and He stayed and they were with Him for a few days and they believed. Based on the opinion of Paul regarding not letting women in a culture who were disruptive speak, we crush women under our feet. Jesus showed us His value of women. But we'll disregard this due to one verse from Paul...which he clearly states as his opinion, not a godly mandate.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

It applies to everything but submissive women are like marines: few.

 

[Calmador]

No, I think it is entirely a role within the leadership of the Church and Christian marriages. In all things, the Church is to reflect a willing submissiveness to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In fact those role differences are there in Christian marriages, so that by them we can show the unsaved World what a geniune believer's relationship with the LORD is really like. Does that make GOD's intended role for women, less important than the role of men in the Church? NO, Both roles are equally important. The men by taking leadership and teaching roles in the Church, influence this generation; the role of women is to teach the younger women and the children; therefore through their teaching younger women how to teach their children, and grandchildren; WOMEN have influence over the next TWO generations. I would say that makes a woman's role, the most important, that is if the rest of you men want to get out that yard stick and measure.

What say we just leave it at the roles are equal?

Proof that it does not apply to the secular world:

Exodus 23:2-3 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] “You must not follow a crowd in wrongdoing. Do not testify in a lawsuit and go along with a crowd to pervert ⌊justice⌋.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Do not show favoritism to a poor person in his lawsuit.

Try to promote only men in your business, and GOD will not bless your business.

Acts 10:34 (NIV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

Romans 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is no favoritism with God.

1 Peter 2:13-15 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

wwwquestions.org/woman-president.html.got

Judges 4:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.

In the beginning when God made Man and then... formed woman... Adam named Eve.

This is the most convincing thing I've heard of when it comes to men being leaders. When things were perfect, Man showed leadership.

As for Deborah, I've just finished reading a blog on her and more so convinced that she not a leader at the moment. Also, she didn't officially sit on the town gates like Judges were meant to. My reason for a leaning on this is mostly based on Genesis and the fact that Adam named woman, Eve. This shows mans authority over woman. Also, although woman was first to sin... God says it was through one man that sin came to this world... Showing Adam as responsible and in charge of what happened.

I'm more convinced that as men we must always seek to lead both in church and out of it.

 

[Calmador]

Just curious..........do you believe that God is imperfect? He must be if "Deborah shouldn't have happened." Do you believe that God had to do things because He was forced into doing them because of some set of circumstances beyond His control?

Hint: God does exactly as He wills.............

You take it out of context.

From what I understand... in those times... the Israelites "did evil in the sight of the Lord." I think Deborah happened as a result of this chaos. While we can draw implications from Deborah... its written in clear day light what way of thought we should think and take those implications.

Starting from the beginning which I think is the most powerful evidence..

[h=3]Genesis 3:20[/h]Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.


[h=3]Ephesians 5:23[/h]
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

1 Timothy 2:12


I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

This is written in clearly. This is why I think, especially Genesis, all men should seek leadership in all positions, both in Church and out of it.

 

[mystdancer50]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

This is written in clearly. This is why I think, especially Genesis, all men should seek leadership in all positions, both in Church and out of it.

Yes. Clearly. I. Who is I? Paul, that's who. Not God. Paul.

 

[Kerry]

Most of yall are law keepers. Explain Deborah please.

 

[tucksma]

Yes. Clearly. I. Who is I? Paul, that's who. Not God. Paul.

But the bible is inspired by God and it is in the bible, soooo it is still truth.


Deborah (from my understanding if I am wrong please show scripture showing so) was a prophet. No where in the bible does it say they can not be a prophet. It says that they can not preach/lead. It is also clear (in my opinion) that this is specifically talking about in a church, not in the world. Women can lead men in the workforce I see no problem with that. Women in the bible to represent the congregation, and men represent Christ. If women are pastors and lead the church, that's like having Jesus sit in your congregation and you being a pastor to him. That's not how it would work you would be sitting there and listening to him. She lead in war, which is fine because this is specifically about the church in my opinion, and she was a prophet, not a pastor. That is the best explanation I have right now, if you can show me I am wrong I'd be interested. Also Kerry you are saying we are law keepers, the law is in the Old Testament not the New. A good portion of the verses supporting what I am saying are in the New Testament.

 

[VCO]

It applies to everything but submissive women are like marines: few.

If it is then sin for woman to take the a place of authority in the secular world, THEN YOU Are you saying GOD blesses SIN".

Here is Deborah taking the position of MILITARY COMMANDER of this entire Campaign:

Judges 4:6-10 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.'"
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go."
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] where he summoned Zebulun and Naphtali. Ten thousand men followed him, and Deborah also went with him.

Judges 4:14-16 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then Deborah said to Barak, "Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, followed by ten thousand men.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] At Barak's advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera abandoned his chariot and fled on foot.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim. All the troops of Sisera fell by the sword; not a man was left.

 

[mystdancer50]

But the bible is inspired by God and it is in the bible, soooo it is still truth.


Deborah (from my understanding if I am wrong please show scripture showing so) was a prophet. No where in the bible does it say they can not be a prophet. It says that they can not preach/lead. It is also clear (in my opinion) that this is specifically talking about in a church, not in the world. Women can lead men in the workforce I see no problem with that. Women in the bible to represent the congregation, and men represent Christ. If women are pastors and lead the church, that's like having Jesus sit in your congregation and you being a pastor to him. That's not how it would work you would be sitting there and listening to him. She lead in war, which is fine because this is specifically about the church in my opinion, and she was a prophet, not a pastor. That is the best explanation I have right now, if you can show me I am wrong I'd be interested. Also Kerry you are saying we are law keepers, the law is in the Old Testament not the New. A good portion of the verses supporting what I am saying are in the New Testament.

The whole point of my stressing that it is Paul speaking is because Paul himself is very careful to state when it is God-ordained and when it is Paul speaking. In this case, it was Paul and it was cultural. Jesus' ministry shows us, as does the OT, that God uses women and sometimes in leadership.

 

[VCO]

But the bible is inspired by God and it is in the bible, soooo it is still truth.


Deborah (from my understanding if I am wrong please show scripture showing so) was a prophet. No where in the bible does it say they can not be a prophet. It says that they can not preach/lead. It is also clear (in my opinion) that this is specifically talking about in a church, not in the world. Women can lead men in the workforce I see no problem with that. Women in the bible to represent the congregation, and men represent Christ. If women are pastors and lead the church, that's like having Jesus sit in your congregation and you being a pastor to him. That's not how it would work you would be sitting there and listening to him. She lead in war, which is fine because this is specifically about the church in my opinion, and she was a prophet, not a pastor. That is the best explanation I have right now, if you can show me I am wrong I'd be interested. Also Kerry you are saying we are law keepers, the law is in the Old Testament not the New. A good portion of the verses supporting what I am saying are in the New Testament.

t t t

AND Deborah is called a prophet, only because GOD chose to give His message through her, because the less than BOLD military Commander, Barak (Judges 4:9) was dragging His feet about following the leading of the LORD. And BECAUSE her message from the LORD came true, it certainly is correct to call her a prophet; HOWEVER she was Never given the Religious ongoing position of Prohet of Israel, which would have been held by a man. Her positions of Leadership, clearly were secular. She clearly was in a position of leadership OVER any male or female in her courtroom, while she served in that secular position as JUDGE, and apparently she was a very good "Judge Judy". The whole nation respected her in that Position as JUDGE. And when they went into Battle, because of the timidity of the "General" Barak, she was forced to Take COMMAND, and was recognized in that secular leadership role by GOD for it. CLEARLY on that Battlefield that day, SHE was giving the Orders and as such fulfilled a prophecy that came from GOD, while she Commanded the respect of her troops, giving them the courage to fight for Victory, because they KNEW that message Deborah delivered CAME FROM GOD.

Judges 4:8-9 (NIV)[SUP]
8 [/SUP]Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go."
[SUP]9 [/SUP]"Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]where he summoned Zebulun and Naphtali. Ten thousand men followed him, and Deborah also went with him.


Food for thought: I have to wonder how long Barak kept his job after the Battle was over? Can you imagine what would have happened to the morale of the Troops in WWII, if someone had overheard General Patton say, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go." ?

 

[VCO]

The whole point of my stressing that it is Paul speaking is because Paul himself is very careful to state when it is God-ordained and when it is Paul speaking. In this case, it was Paul and it was cultural. Jesus' ministry shows us, as does the OT, that God uses women and sometimes in leadership.

Sunday School Teachers - YES

Children's Sunday School Director - YES

Women's Bible Study Group Leader - YES

Director of Administration (Head of the Office Staff) - YES

Missions Coordinator - YES

Fellowship Coordinator - YES

Director of the Kitchen - YES

Deaconess - YES

Pastor or Elder - NO, it is forbidden by GOD.

 

[Kerry]

But oh no, not A judge o Israel. God Differs my friend. Or did God slip?

 

[tucksma]

The whole point of my stressing that it is Paul speaking is because Paul himself is very careful to state when it is God-ordained and when it is Paul speaking. In this case, it was Paul and it was cultural. Jesus' ministry shows us, as does the OT, that God uses women and sometimes in leadership.

I haven't heard the concept to show that Paul ever speaks in non inspired writings. There is scripture saying that it is all inspired and truth, so I'm interested. What verses say when Paul is speaking as Paul and when from the inspiration of God.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Judges were not kings. They had no real authority. The Bible says inthe time of judges every man did what was right in his own eyes. That means no rulers. That includes Deborah. She was not in authority; she prophesyed and inquired of the Lord. The Lord was the one who decided not Deborah.

 

[VCO]

Judges were not kings. They had no real authority. The Bible says inthe time of judges every man did what was right in his own eyes. That means no rulers. That includes Deborah. She was not in authority; she prophesyed and inquired of the Lord. The Lord was the one who decided not Deborah.

Judges 4:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Deborah, a woman who was a prophetess and the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.

Judges 5:7 (GW)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Villages in Israel were deserted— deserted until I, Deborah, took a stand— took a stand as a mother of Israel.

Judges 5:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Awake, awake, Deborah! Awake, awake, sing a song! Arise, Barak, and lead your captives away, O son of Abinoam!
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Then the survivors came down, the people against the nobles; The LORD came down for me against the mighty.

Judges 4:4 Deborah, a prophetess.

She was an unusual woman of wisdom and influence who did the tasks of a judge, except for military leadership. God can use women mightily for civil, religious, or other tasks, e.g., Huldah the prophetess (2 Kin. 22:14), Philip’s daughters in prophesying (Acts 21:8, 9), and Phoebe a deaconess (Rom. 16:1). Deborah’s rise to such a role is the exception in the book because of Barak’s failure to show the courage to lead courageously (vv. 8, 14). God rebuked his cowardice by the pledge that a woman would kill Sisera (v. 9).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment [Jdg. 4:4-5].

Here we have a mother in Israel, Deborah, who is described as being both a prophetess and a judge. We are also told that she was the wife of Lapidoth, but I like to turn that around and say that Lapidoth was the husband of Deborah. She was quite a woman. She was raised up by God to judge Israel, and she called upon the general to get busy. He was not doing his job. He should go against the enemy that Israel might be delivered from slavery.
And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon, Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.

And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go [Jdg. 4:6-8].

If there ever was a general who was a sissy, it was Barak. He should have been out in the thick of the battle, but here he is hiding behind a woman's skirt. Barak will not go into battle unless Deborah goes along. If this prophetess went with him, he felt he would be successful in battle. No wonder God had to use a woman in that day!

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

 

[VCO]

Judges were not kings. They had no real authority. The Bible says inthe time of judges every man did what was right in his own eyes. That means no rulers. That includes Deborah. She was not in authority; she prophesyed and inquired of the Lord. The Lord was the one who decided not Deborah.

I wouldn't ever say that to a Woman Judge if I were you, if you ever get hauled into Court, even if it is only for SPEEDING.

They certainly had the final say in Legal disputes in their day.

Andrae Crouch *Soon And Very Soon* "Live" - YouTube

 

[parablepete]

Acts 16:14 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

I don't know if she had a husband or not. but, she did have high captial finiace job.

 

[Apostol2013]

Truth the word of God overides our own precepts just look at the Godhead Father Son and Holy ghost the three are one and are in agreement therefore the word of God stands

 

[Apostol2013]

Yes. Clearly. I. Who is I? Paul, that's who. Not God. Paul.

33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

34 let the women f keep silent in the churches, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the Law also says.


35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chatter in the church.


36 What? Was it from you that the word of God went out? Or did it come to you alone?


37 If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him recognize the things which I write to you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.

 

[Misty77]

Reposted from yesterday:

I will repeat a concept that I have posted before: Use extreme caution when using the writings of Paul to form doctrines that you are applying to all people. These letters were written to specific churches, in specific time periods, and in response to specific situations. It's like hearing only one side of a phone conversation because you are missing a lot of context.

Here is an example: your friend has leftover ham and calls you to ask if he can feed it to your dog who is at home while you are on vacation. You, understanding that pork products make your dog sick, reply, "Thank you for your thoughtfulness, Bob; but please don't feed the dog. The girl down the street takes care of that for us." The person in the room next to you only hears what you say and then forms an entire theology that men are never to feed dogs, but that it is the duty of women, especially those that are minors. That person did not hear what Bob said and does not know what history has led you to respond the way you did.

Yes, the epistles are also the inspired Word of God. You just have to take the truths that you glean from them and see how they mesh with scripture as a whole. KJV brings out a very telling adjective, "your," in the phrase, "let your women keep silent in the churches." This is not a modifier he uses with instructions to women in other writings, which would indicate that this is something specific to the Corinthian churches. Corinth was a major hub in the sea trade with 2 harbors and plenty of temple prostitutes for sailors on shore leave. Worship of the goddess Aphrodite was lead by women in seductive manners. Like today, the culture and pagan religions tend to seep into the churches, and these were behaviors that simply could not be tolerated. That is why Paul's stance against female leadership is strongest in the letters to the Corinthians; it is because he is writing in response to extreme licentiousness.

In his letter to the Galatians, he frequently rebukes their legalism and what is probably sexism, too. In Galatians 3:26, Paul says, "ye are all sons," and he is speaking to both men and women. Even in some cultures today but especially throughout history, daughters did not have the same rights as sons. Paul is emphasizing that God has no second-class children because His sons and daughters are equal heirs. He goes even further to declare that there is no difference in Christ because of ethnicity, autonomy, or gender. But that is because he is writing in response to severe legalism.

[Galatians 3:26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[SUP]g[/SUP] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.]