Woman should not teach or assume authority over men (applies to secular????)

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Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
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#61
Also:
When we start getting hung up on the few passages that seem to limit a woman's role in the church, here are a few things to keep in mind. Entire passages of scripture exist only because a woman told a man about it. No man was around for parts of Hagar's story, Hannah's prayer, Jael's defeat of Sisera, the angels that visited Samson's mom and Mary, Ruth's journey, Esther's courage, and the women who were the first witnesses of the empty tomb; and that is just for starters. That means a woman taught a man who then wrote that down for all believers of all ages to know. How is that essentially different from a woman teaching? The only difference is that there is a literal middle man involved.

Jesus had the 12 disciples, but there were a lot of people who followed him, including women like Mary Magdalene, Salome, and a lot of women named Mary. (Interesting note: Mary means "stubborn" :)) Unlike the disciples that ignored Jesus' clear teachings that he was going to die, Mary purposefully anointed Jesus' feet with oil in preparation for his death and burial (John 12:1-8). She ministered to him an a way that the men completely neglected, probably because she is the one who chose to learn at Jesus' feet above all else. Women were present for the crucifixion when the men had fled. Even though their testimony was inadmissible in court, women were the first to witness the resurrection.

The book of Philippians only exists because of a group of faithful women. Paul was intending to go somewhere else when the Holy Spirit told him to go to Asia where he "happened" upon a group of women worshiping by the river because there were not even the 10 men necessary to have a synagogue. It is also interesting to note that Paul's letter to the Philippians is one of the most kindly-worded of his writings, and that church was not subject to rebuke.

There are also several notable women in the early church. Priscilla, along side her husband Aquilla, ministered with Paul who later sent Apollos to learn from them. There was Phoebe the deaconess, Phillip's 4 daughters who prophesied, as well as Chloe, Lydia, Apphia, Nympha, and the mother of John Mark who were all vital for the survival of the early church. We can't forget the much-debated Junia, whose female gender was unquestioned for over a thousand years until someone decided that a woman could not be considered among the apostles.

We have all heard Ephesians 5:22 ad nauseum, but who remembers to include verse 21 which sets the context that we are all to submit (yield our will) to each other? Abraham was commanded by God to "harken" [the word is actually "obey"] to his wife Sarah regarding Hagar. In fact, people in general are called to submission more than women specifically, which is further evidence that the emphasis on feminine submission is more contextual than universal.

We have all heard "sola scriptura," meaning "only scripture." Let's also make it "tota scriptura" to include the whole and complete Word of God.
[feel free to correct my limited Latin]
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
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#62
The words "to usurp authority" in the KJV are translated from the Greek "authenteo" which means:

  1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
  2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
  3. an absolute master
  4. to govern, exercise dominion over one


That would be wrong for both MALE or FEMALE to do which gives further evidence that Paul is addressing a specific problem.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#63
The words "to usurp authority" in the KJV are translated from the Greek "authenteo" which means:

  1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
  2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
  3. an absolute master
  4. to govern, exercise dominion over one

That would be wrong for both MALE or FEMALE to do which gives further evidence that Paul is addressing a specific problem.
Wrong to kill another, yes, but if you take that in context no it isn't a literal killing.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence

Don't kill authority over a man is what it is saying, not literally kill. And it says a women, not your, in this passage. It is clearly saying with "nor to usurp" that women should not govern, be a master, act of their own authority, or kill the authority over men. (Govern in a church setting not a legislation setting)
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
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#64
Wrong to kill another, yes, but if you take that in context no it isn't a literal killing.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence

Don't kill authority over a man is what it is saying, not literally kill. And it says a women, not your, in this passage. It is clearly saying with "nor to usurp" that women should not govern, be a master, act of their own authority, or kill the authority over men. (Govern in a church setting not a legislation setting)
No, authority is not to be taken by a man's hands, by his own authority. Autocratic means to exercise absolute authority by one's own power. Any authority that a man would biblically have over his own wife is not of his own doing but through the Lord's.

"Your" was clearly for "let your women keep silent," so your point is irrelevant. And it never says that men are to have authority over women in general, but in relation to their own wives.

It is clear that your desire to debase women is greater than your willingness to submit to the truth of God's Word. You have been presented with enough information, and you have the entirety of scripture to study with a humble heart. As a reminder, you can make the Bible seem to back any viewpoint if you glean verses and use them out of context. Rather, those verses must match with the Bible as a whole. Any apparent contradictions require you to reevaluate you previous position, and that is to be done prayerfully and intelligently while reducing the influence of your own bias. God bless.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#65
No, authority is not to be taken by a man's hands, by his own authority. Autocratic means to exercise absolute authority by one's own power. Any authority that a man would biblically have over his own wife is not of his own doing but through the Lord's.

"Your" was clearly for "let your women keep silent," so your point is irrelevant. And it never says that men are to have authority over women in general, but in relation to their own wives.

It is clear that your desire to debase women is greater than your willingness to submit to the truth of God's Word. You have been presented with enough information, and you have the entirety of scripture to study with a humble heart. As a reminder, you can make the Bible seem to back any viewpoint if you glean verses and use them out of context. Rather, those verses must match with the Bible as a whole. Any apparent contradictions require you to reevaluate you previous position, and that is to be done prayerfully and intelligently while reducing the influence of your own bias. God bless.
I actually agree with your firmly on the last bit, that contradictions can not happen.
My point about "your" was showing you that it doesn't say your here so it can not refer to a specific church here.


I don't actually have a desire to debase women, I think women and men are equal as the bible states. What we view as equal though is not how God views equal. You can tell in the bible (with verses like this) that there is a role for women and a role for men and they are equal. Men speak and lead in the church to the congregation. Women lead children and other women, and also are the caretakers. Adam (the man) is given dominion over all the animals and to show that he named them, wellll who named women? Adam. Just one example of different roles but equality. He leads her, but doesn't treat her as a lesser. I would say your desire for women speaking is greater than your willingness to submit to the truth of God's Word. You have been presented with enough information, and you have the entirety of scripture to study with a humble heart.
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
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#66
I actually agree with your firmly on the last bit, that contradictions can not happen.
My point about "your" was showing you that it doesn't say your here so it can not refer to a specific church here.


I don't actually have a desire to debase women, I think women and men are equal as the bible states. What we view as equal though is not how God views equal. You can tell in the bible (with verses like this) that there is a role for women and a role for men and they are equal. Men speak and lead in the church to the congregation. Women lead children and other women, and also are the caretakers. Adam (the man) is given dominion over all the animals and to show that he named them, wellll who named women? Adam. Just one example of different roles but equality. He leads her, but doesn't treat her as a lesser. I would say your desire for women speaking is greater than your willingness to submit to the truth of God's Word. You have been presented with enough information, and you have the entirety of scripture to study with a humble heart.
Wrong. MANKIND (aka. the human species) is given dominion.

Genesis 1:26—Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

The command is given both to the male and the female as clarified in verse 7. It is basic reading comprehension. If you are not actively trying to debase women, then you are either under some fallacious teaching or you have yet to master the skill of "rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
 
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tucksma

Guest
#67
Wrong. MANKIND (aka. the human species) is given dominion.

Genesis 1:26—Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

The command is given both to the male and the female as clarified in verse 7. It is basic reading comprehension. If you are not actively trying to debase women, then you are either under some fallacious teaching or you have yet to master the skill of "rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
My bad there, you got me on the mankind thing, but Adam still named Eve so that point is still valid. And you just don't understand the concept of separate roles but equal, which is understandable many people don't but it is truth.
 
Jul 26, 2013
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#68
James 3:13-18


13* Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14* But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not and lie not against the truth.

15* This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16* For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17* But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy

18* And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Again wisdom is compared to a woman in the bible. One is from above which is silent, one from below which rules in authority over men.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#69
James 3:13-18


13* Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14* But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not and lie not against the truth.

15* This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16* For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17* But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy

18* And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Again wisdom is compared to a woman in the bible. One is from above which is silent, one from below which rules in authority over men.
okay? and? if this women in timothy is wisdom, then it is saying I do not permit wisdom to have authority over man. That is like saying "I want men to be dumb" It makes more sense for it to be literal women.
 
Jul 26, 2013
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#70
okay? and? if this women in timothy is wisdom, then it is saying I do not permit wisdom to have authority over man. That is like saying "I want men to be dumb" It makes more sense for it to be literal women.
What it is saying is that if you have came to an understanding that pork is good and you come across one who believes it is a sin, do not openly debate and argue about it. It is love that settles things. Learn within yourselves and be fully convinced your own minds.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
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#71
But oh no, not A judge o Israel. God Differs my friend. Or did God slip?

That quibble deserves a simple version response:

Judges 4:4-5 (GW)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Deborah, wife of Lappidoth, was a prophet. She was the judge in Israel at that time.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] She used to sit under the Palm Tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. The people of Israel would come to her for legal decisions.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#72
What it is saying is that if you have came to an understanding that pork is good and you come across one who believes it is a sin, do not openly debate and argue about it. It is love that settles things. Learn within yourselves and be fully convinced your own minds.
The only reason I am debating it is because the forum was made to haha. I don't go around telling girls they can not preach unless they ask how I feel about it. If I'm invited to speak then I will, if not, then not.
 
Jul 26, 2013
1,451
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#73
The only reason I am debating it is because the forum was made to haha. I don't go around telling girls they can not preach unless they ask how I feel about it. If I'm invited to speak then I will, if not, then not.
I understand but if things are going to change, we need to come out of that type of thinking. Women are working jobs tosupport their families now and raising kids without men in the house.

The bible has many symbols in it to hide it's treasure. Those verses used to make females inferior are only symbols of the wisdom that mankind chooses to live by.

By wisdom one man holds a day above any other. Another holds every day in high regard. And yet another still believes all days are the same. Some eats pork, some holds cows and mice in high regard. Some people eats them however. In all cases we should respect the right of the individual.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#74
UNLESS they go against scripture. Which women speaking in their church does.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
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#75
I actually agree with your firmly on the last bit, that contradictions can not happen.
My point about "your" was showing you that it doesn't say your here so it can not refer to a specific church here.


I don't actually have a desire to debase women, I think women and men are equal as the bible states. What we view as equal though is not how God views equal. You can tell in the bible (with verses like this) that there is a role for women and a role for men and they are equal. Men speak and lead in the church to the congregation. Women lead children and other women, and also are the caretakers. Adam (the man) is given dominion over all the animals and to show that he named them, wellll who named women? Adam. Just one example of different roles but equality. He leads her, but doesn't treat her as a lesser. I would say your desire for women speaking is greater than your willingness to submit to the truth of God's Word. You have been presented with enough information, and you have the entirety of scripture to study with a humble heart.

Tucksma, I don't claim to be a prophet, but I predict if you do not don't change your attitude; you will be a very lonely man for a very long time. The LORD say we are to love our wives self-sacrificially.
 
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Feb 16, 2011
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#76
It is amazing how many loop holes women look for on this topic. Most women do not have a problem telling a man what to do. But then equality is just their front for what they really want: control.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
4,602
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#77
I understand but if things are going to change, we need to come out of that type of thinking. Women are working jobs tosupport their families now and raising kids without men in the house.

The bible has many symbols in it to hide it's treasure. Those verses used to make females inferior are only symbols of the wisdom that mankind chooses to live by.

By wisdom one man holds a day above any other. Another holds every day in high regard. And yet another still believes all days are the same. Some eats pork, some holds cows and mice in high regard. Some people eats them however. In all cases we should respect the right of the individual.

And some of us eat snapping turtles and frog legs. My favorite two when I was growing up.

1 Timothy 4:4-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
4,602
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#78
It is amazing how many loop holes women look for on this topic. Most women do not have a problem telling a man what to do. But then equality is just their front for what they really want: control.

Somebody wants to live alone.

Happily married to my wife for 34.5 years and counting, but I did not start out with that attitude either.
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
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#79
It is amazing how many loop holes women look for on this topic. Most women do not have a problem telling a man what to do. But then equality is just their front for what they really want: control.
That is rubbish. I completely abhor the idea of one human being controlling another. Is it so ghastly that I ask for autonomy?
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
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#80
Deborah was a judge over Israel, a prophetess for God, and led the Israelite army to victory in war.
So, it's okay for a woman to lead if she's married, then? Isn't it wonderful how Christians today are so istatesntent to limit God and tell Him who He can and can't use?
Well the apostles set the foundation its up to the individual to be rebellious now the word of God is for all time alot of people use gal3:28 to justify themselves but truth how many scriotyres speak otherwise all galations is saying you have been made heirs to the promise in spirit but doctrine is set how can i change the word i think not i am very devout to God and love all but cannot infract his commandments or i will be rebellious and rebellion is ss the sin of idolatry and witchcraft wich all falls into iniwuity i want to give equal rights to many offi,es in ministry but the word is firm am i to be rebellious ? i think not God forbid . Judge for yourself what is right but fear the lord and make his covenant afirmed inn you
 
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