Women cannot have authority in the congregation.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
1,352
765
113
Feels like I should take this opportunity to interject a lyric. Not that I'm a big fan of the Beatles, but it gets the point across. Ahem....
:
I guess you thought everyone would be impressed by your religiosity but that didn't work out

you don't really believe people can post whatever they want and you illustrated that for us by your attacks on several of us

you are just plain out not being truthful and that has nothing to do with me or anyone else here.
You’re very wrong about your assumptions about me. However, your assumptions tell me a lot about you....:unsure:
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
2,798
3,166
113
59
I fully concur with your estimation. Paul saying "I do not permit" is not the same as God saying that. I believe that Paul was offering his own personal opinion when addressing the culture and traditions at the time. Context is critical. Also, there was Deborah, appointed by God in a position of authority as a judge over the entire nation of Israel.
I love this Scripture about the women at the well...

John 4:28-30
28 Then the woman left her water jar, went back into the town, and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” 30 So they left the town and made their way toward Jesus.

Through her spreading the word of our Lord , they left their town to go and meet Him...
Jesus moved this women to speak , a women who no one wanted to speak to because of her background , yet He picked her just at the perfect time...
...xox...
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
3,610
1,851
113
I love this Scripture about the women at the well...

John 4:28-30
28 Then the woman left her water jar, went back into the town, and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” 30 So they left the town and made their way toward Jesus.

Through her spreading the word of our Lord , they left their town to go and meet Him...
Jesus moved this women to speak , a women who no one wanted to speak to because of her background , yet He picked her just at the perfect time...
...xox...
And those women who went to the tomb first to care for Jesus' body.
Because it was a job that made a Jew unclean- touching a dead body. It was left to the women.
They were the first witnesses to his resurrection. Not the Apostles! It's good thing they weren't silent then. ;)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
2,798
3,166
113
59
And those women who went to the tomb first to care for Jesus' body.
Because it was a job that made a Jew unclean- touching a dead body. It was left to the women.
They were the first witnesses to his resurrection. Not the Apostles! It's good thing they weren't silent then. ;)
Amen...
Jesus really built women up through Him , they were so disregarded back then by many , yet He loved them dearly as He loves us all...
...xox...
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
3,610
1,851
113
I am wondering, among the women here, do any of you actually want or actively seek 'authority in the congregation'?
I know I don't.

Sometimes I have some information or an insight that might be useful even to men though.
And I'm not comfortable with being confined to having to teach only other women or children.
I would find fellowship difficult under circumstances like that.

"Hey the roof is on fire, will all women and children please proceed to the nearest available exit"
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
2,798
3,166
113
59
I am wondering, among the women here, do any of you actually want or actively seek 'authority in the congregation'?
I know I don't.

Sometimes I have some information or an insight that might be useful even to men though.
And I'm not comfortable with being confined to having to teach only other women or children.
I would find fellowship difficult under circumstances like that.

"Hey the roof is on fire, will all women and children please proceed to the nearest available exit"
I do believe God calls us and places us where we need to be , like @Angela53510 , God has given her a ministry , and the resources to carry her through...

I can just about be a witness to my children/grandchildren , I always come away feeling like I have let God down , I tend to use my own strength instead of relying on Him through my weakness , so no , I would not like to , but than if God calls us to seek authority , then it would be fine ...Some days , most days , I find it hard to get out of bed , but praise God for those that He does send...
...xox...
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
3,983
1,691
113
I am wondering, among the women here, do any of you actually want or actively seek 'authority in the congregation'?
I know I don't.

Sometimes I have some information or an insight that might be useful even to men though.
And I'm not comfortable with being confined to having to teach only other women or children.
I would find fellowship difficult under circumstances like that.

"Hey the roof is on fire, will all women and children please proceed to the nearest available exit"
I don't believe in titles and reject them in general, I think it's a deception and for many a temptation, male or female. It's only a necessary evil for the sake of practicality in church. We should have in mind that the early church had no pulpit it got "installed" later. But before the pulpit people all spoke that's why so much emphasis about order. Nobody nowadays interrupts a person speaking from the pulpit anyway, it isn't even cultural to us, so this whole thing looks to me like fighting the windmills. The title of disciple and servant of Jesus is quite sufficient to me. I don't need recognition from men if God commands me to share something I share it, it's the job you do not the title you bear.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
1,352
765
113
And those women who went to the tomb first to care for Jesus' body.
Because it was a job that made a Jew unclean- touching a dead body. It was left to the women.
They were the first witnesses to his resurrection. Not the Apostles! It's good thing they weren't silent then. ;)
Ah, but the women that were at the tomb were not ordinary women because they had followed Jesus. And the Apostles to whom they announced his resurrection , were they traditional Jewish men and women, would not have listened to what they were saying, much less have followed them as called to do by those women. To come see, Jesus has risen.

Jesus broke the yoke of enslavement in so many words with his presence and his ministry. Odd that we'd think Jesus would want us as women to be enslaved to the former bonds when it comes to spreading his good news.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,133
2,595
113
Jesus did choose 12 disciples according to His Father’s Will which were all men so, I do think it’s best for men to lead but, I’d be willing to follow a “Joshua” NOT, a Judas or a Pharisee or a weak Ahaz.

Put a Joshua with a Deborah.....WOW!

I’m really impressed how Abigail handled Nabal.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,202
2,748
113
So pray for the truth to be revealed and then what? Wait for it to come to us while we are in the shower?

What about examining the context of the scripture that is in question to see if a mistake has been made that is obvious? Now that would be the place to start after you have already prayed for guidance, and you do not have a right to skip that rule while saying that the Spirit will show you. because he won't because your being dumb and lazy if you refuse to examine context. :) Not you personally, I mean anyone.

My example of "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he" I have used in a previous post. Many people are thinking they have the Spirit on that one and they have never examined the context. When they do they realize they made a mistake in interpreting it the way they have been doing. The day they examine the context and get the correct meaning that the Spirit intended all along is the day they were lead by the Spirit. The truth came to them the day they followed the hermeneutic rule of examining context. And not before.
One prays for understanding from God and then goes out and reads the scriptures.. We should not go out and read the scriptures to work it out for ourselves and then,, as an after thought,, pray to God about it..
 
G

Gerlinde24

Guest
Well, then it will be difficult for you to find God. What you then search on an Christian forum? Faith is no Fiction. You need faith in your normal life. You need faith in a relationship and you need faith when you open a tin of Coca Cola, that there is Coca Cola inside.
Read ore hear Werner Gitt, he is giving you facts. You can easly Google him., if your Goal is to find the truth.
I don't know if it will be harder or easier for me to find God because I'm critically questioning.
What am I looking for in a Christian forum? Answers to questions, and, perhaps also, that someone convinces me. Or give me new food for thought.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,872
657
113
I don't know if it will be harder or easier for me to find God because I'm critically questioning.
What am I looking for in a Christian forum? Answers to questions, and, perhaps also, that someone convinces me. Or give me new food for thought.
Well, then you should read or hear Werner Gitt, he has for shure New food for you :)
 
G

Gerlinde24

Guest
It would appear that (a) you have never properly read or studied the Bible, or (b) you have chosen to skip the passages which deal with homosexuality, or (c) you don't really care what the Bible says, as long as the LGBTQ agenda can do forward (as does the rainbow flag crowd).
To a) Since I left the JW (1992), I have read the Bible several times, in German, English and Ancient Greek.
In addition, biblical dictionaries and encyclopaedias, books by Biblical scholars and pastors (i know a former JW who was an evangelical pastor and has written many books about the JW).
As you can see, I have big knowledge.
To b) Unlike others, the "pick and choose" is alien to me. I read the whole chapter, maybe the chapters before and after, to better understand a passage.
And I love to deal with ancient history in order to get a better understanding of the people and their circumstances at that time.
To c) It is important to me what the Bible really says on a subject, not what is interpreted by poor or incorrect translations (or deliberate omission) into the passages.
By the way, I'm not a lesbian, or bisexual. I see myself as heterosexual, but I am tolerant of almost all forms of life (except of child abusers, fanatics and politically right-wing people).
What drives me on this issue is my sense of justice and fairness. In my previous life, I must have been a judge. ;)

Not only does the Bible strongly condemn homosexuality, but the Bible gives us the example of Sodom and Gomorrah as the epitome of sexual deviance, and the extremely severe judgment reserved for perverts -- which is ultimately eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire).
Of course I know the story of Sodom! But it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Here is the short form of the story:

Two angels (according to other translations messengers) visited Lot and his family to warn them. A crowd formed in front of his house (unclear whether only men or women and children were present) and challenged the two strangers to "recognize" them (rewriting for sex). Lot refused because of the guest right, and offered the mob his daughters, who did not want them. (End)

What does this story tell us?
First, it must have been a heterosexual environment, because otherwise Lot's offer with his daughters would not make sense.
Then, what we now call "gang rape" was widespread in antiquity, and unfortunately it still is today! They wanted to humiliate Lot and the two angels/messengers by "making" the two men a woman by a rape, as patriarchal societies still do today!
But what was the sin of Sodom? Let us have an Old Testament prophet speak:

49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 NIV

There is nothing about homosexuality! It was later interpreted simply as it was, without going to the original texts.

So before you post again, you might want to sit down and carefully study the Bible before you put your foot in your mouth. And just ignore the so-called *scholars* (who themselves need to be schooled).
I have enough knowledge on these and other issues that I can prove things. In addition to knowledge, man above all needs common sense.
 
G

Gerlinde24

Guest
Well, then you should read or hear Werner Gitt, he has for shure New food for you :)
Before I read anything about him, I'll do a background check of him first. The following questions will be important:

What training does he have, and did he complete it?
Does he belong to a religion, if so, which one? (Check of Religion)
Is he at odds with other biblical scholars, and, if so, how conclusive and comprehensible are its sources and evidence?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,840
1,508
113
Jesus did choose 12 disciples according to His Father’s Will which were all men so, I do think it’s best for men to lead but, I’d be willing to follow a “Joshua” NOT, a Judas or a Pharisee or a weak Ahaz.

Put a Joshua with a Deborah.....WOW!

I’m really impressed how Abigail handled Nabal.
Amen

Rehab with Joshua, or Rehab with Abraham. . two prophet/ apostles .

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?James 2:41-42

Mary with Martha . David with Johnathon. Moses with Aaron .Paul with Barnabus . Husbands with wives. The Son man Jesus with the father.

Two is the metaphorical number he has assigned to represent the church. Neither male or female, Jew or gentile have a teaching authority as that seen by the eye over the other .

God who is in the midst has that Power. A binding rope of three is not easily broken . His love hems us in.

Ecclesiastes 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

Both men and woman make one. Both are necessary. What we need is more Mary's with Martha's, or Johnathon's with David's.

And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Luke 10:41-42

Roles can switch. as the Holy Spirt moves mankind to do the good pleasure of His will.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,872
657
113
Before I read anything about him, I'll do a background check of him first. The following questions will be important:

What training does he have, and did he complete it?
Does he belong to a religion, if so, which one? (Check of Religion)
Is he at odds with other biblical scholars, and, if so, how conclusive and comprehensible are its sources and evidence?
I can understand that you are sceptical, special when you come from JW. A friend from my childhood is JW. And I met Him again when I became a christian.
You will find in christianity mostly different meanings. But what is most important is the View of one to the bible.
The most people today even Christians, do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is God. They dont believe that the bible is the word of God. They teach that the bible contains word of God , but the most would be written from humans which anders later that Christ has done all the miracles.
Honestly, who denys the word of God, is not able to find the truth.
So it is right not to believe everybody.
You can Trust only Jesus Christ/God and his word. Hope you will find the truth here and not manmade Religion.
 
G

Gerlinde24

Guest
The original theme of this thread was the question of whether women in the Church can have leadership roles. The discussion has become more and more distant. Partly my fault. That's why I suggest the moderatorvir, where it starts to deviate from the topic, separate, and start its own thread.

I can understand that you are sceptical, special when you come from JW. A friend from my childhood is JW. And I met Him again when I became a christian.
At least we agree on this point that we should not believe everything unnoticed. You don't buy a used car without checking it first, right?

You will find in christianity mostly different meanings. But what is most important is the View of one to the bible.
For me, it has never been a problem for people to have different opinions. The exchange and the objections about it, enliven every discussion, and lead, as with an onion, step by step to truth and greater wisdom. The Jews call this "pilpul".
Some Christians say that from A to Z the Bible is to be believed literally, but they do not stick to it themselves, because otherwise, to put it bluntly, they would kill Sabbath abbots, not eat pork, and sell their daughters into slavery. Everything the Bible demands (in the Old Testament).
Others, like me, have a more critical view of the Bible. They see the beauty of their language and allegories, the value of their messages of humanity and solidarity; but they also see the flaws in it, caused by inaccurate translations, and the omission of texts.
What if, for example, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene had been considered not a Gnostic component, but a biblical component? Women would still have leadership responsibilities in the Church today if they were not the "servant" of the man, but on an equal footing.
The fact that the men of the Council of Nicaea did not want this is because they wanted to have sole power and control, just as men in family, state, church and society still want it today, and therefore do not tolerate a woman at the top. For most conservative Americans, a woman as president is unthinkable. Not even as vice-president.

The most people today even Christians, do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is God. They dont believe that the bible is the word of God. They teach that the bible contains word of God , but the most would be written from humans which anders later that Christ has done all the miracles.
I see it differently! Most of today's Christians (at least in Europe) see the Bible and its message in a more nuanced way. You wonder what the Bible has to say to them today, and whether women's oppression, racism and homophobia are still contemporary in the Bible?

Honestly, who denys the word of God, is not able to find the truth.
So it is right not to believe everybody.
Do you really believe that people who view the Bible and religion in a more nuanced and critical way will never find God? Do you really believe that? Perhaps they are closer to God than a person who takes the Bible literally, condemns others for their faith or way of life, and forgets to live themselves?

You can Trust only Jesus Christ/God and his word. Hope you will find the truth here and not manmade Religion.
What you really mean by this is that I should believe the traditional words about God and Jesus, as described in the Bible. Only in order to be able to believe something, there must be a reason for this faith. Evidence that there is something about faith, of God/Jesus. And so far I have found nothing in this direction. But I don't give up hope of one day finding something that makes me believe.
 
G

Gerlinde24

Guest
Jesus did choose 12 disciples according to His Father’s Will which were all men so, I do think it’s best for men to lead but, I’d be willing to follow a “Joshua” NOT, a Judas or a Pharisee or a weak Ahaz.

Put a Joshua with a Deborah.....WOW!

I’m really impressed how Abigail handled Nabal.

Wrong! Jesus chose not only the twelve apostles we all know (I call them the "inner circle"); he also chose others as apostles, including women like Junia (she was declared a man in the 12th century); and Mary Magdalene, who according to some Bible exegetes was the leader of this "outer circle".
For what does the word Apostle mean? But nothing more than "messengers." All the apostles from the inner and outer circles were travelling missionaries of the new faith.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,133
2,595
113
Wrong! Jesus chose not only the twelve apostles we all know (I call them the "inner circle"); he also chose others as apostles, including women like Junia (she was declared a man in the 12th century); and Mary Magdalene, who according to some Bible exegetes was the leader of this "outer circle".
For what does the word Apostle mean? But nothing more than "messengers." All the apostles from the inner and outer circles were travelling missionaries of the new faith.
Nope. 12 men and the “inner circle” was Peter, James and John.

At one point Jesus sent out 70 - probably men and women - maybe but, the moment Jesus speaks of eating His flesh and drinking His blood everyone leaves except the 12.
 
G

Gerlinde24

Guest
Nope. 12 men and the “inner circle” was Peter, James and John.

At one point Jesus sent out 70 - probably men and women - maybe but, the moment Jesus speaks of eating His flesh and drinking His blood everyone leaves except the 12.
I am not alone in thinking about the inner and outer circle of Apostles. Many Biblical scholars come to the same conclusion. Here are some quotes, translated from German:

Some observations from the history of the Church seem to indicate that they may have existed.

1) In the liturgical, the Meonrestosical Book of the Byzantine Church, Junia is still venerated as an Apostle to this day, alongside the "apostles" Mary Magdalene and Thekla.

2) John Chrysostomos refers to Junia as a female name in his Roman Letter Commentary and thinks that she was called an Apostle.

3) The same applies to the Roman letter comments of Ambrosiaster (4th century) and Rufins of Aquileia (ca. 345-410)

4) In addition, women who do not bear the title of Apostle in the New Anatous were also chosen as such in the Church Fathers' commentaries (Woman of Samaria at the Fountain of Jacob, of Origenes and Theophylact);

5) In the old church even Mary Magdalene is given the title apostola apostolorum.

In addition, in liturgical, hagiographic and romantic Christian literature, other women encounter themselves as apostles. These are in particular Thekla from Asia Minor in the 2nd century, of which the Theklaakten tell, and Nino from the 4th century, who appears in hagiographic texts as the "apostle and evangelist" of Georgia. Nino is also told of her consecration by the Patriarch Juvenal of Jerusalem, whereby she is designated as an official official. In addition, Nino's missionary work as well as her preaching, teaching and baptism activities are reported.
The above examples document that the recognition of women in their function as apostle, evangelist, teacher and priestess in the 1st millennium was not unanimously rejected, but also affirmed. (Source: https://bibelbund.de/2018/01/gab-es-eine-apostolin-junia/)


But were there really only men who acted as apostles? The Greek word "Apostoloi" suggests this. Apostle, plurality: Apostoloi is male. So did Mathetai disciples. Male.
Sabine Bieberstein, Professor of New Testament at the Catholic University of Eichstätt, explains this phenomenon with the androcentricity of the ancient Greek language. Groups consisting of men and women are referred to in the plural with a male-constructed word – as was common in German and still is in some cases. For Sabine Bieberstein, this is one reason why the beginnings of Christianity seem male-dominated. (...)
"The fact that women have taken on quite remarkable functions in these early communities is not to be discussed away. Very interesting titles are used, such as the Phoebe, which is called the Deaconos and Prostatis of the municipality of Kenchräa. There is the Junia, which is called apostolos – that is, that there were these women, that they were proclaimed, that they also had managerial functions, that is some consensus in research. How this is then to be evaluated, evaluated and what conclusions are to be drawn from it, then the opinions diverge."
Bernhard Heininger, Professor of the Exegesis of the New Testament at the University of Würzburg, adds: "Generally speaking, I would like to add that a quarter of Paul's staff, who are mentioned in the New Testament, are women. Those who contribute in many ways to missionary work."
Angela Wäffler, author and pastor in Switzerland, also cites Paul as the most important witness for the role of women in the early church. "Perhaps it can also be said explicitly that he writes at the very beginning of the first Letter to the Corinth: he would have heard from the people of Chloe what conditions prevail in Corinth – that means: this Chloe plays a very important role, also a public role, in the community. And certainly not only on the coffee machine." (...)
The earliest interpreters of the New Testament, the Fathers of the Church, speak of Junia with respect. John Chrysostom, who lived from 344 to 407 AD, writes of Junia: "Being an apostle is something great. But famous among the Apostles, consider the great praise this is. How great must it have been for this woman's wisdom that she was found worthy of the title of Apostle."
In the Luther Bible and in the translation of unity, however, another name still stands instead of Junia: Junias – a man. Junias first appeared in the 13th century , with Egidius of Rome, an Augustinian hermit and disciple of the Church teacher Thomas Aquinas.
In the meantime, the view has prevailed in research that Junia, the female version, must be the original Pauline. Bernhard Heininger: "The historical-critical method has already been seen early, so early on I mean: mid-last century – that the male name Junias almost does not exist in antiquity, so not documented, while the woman's name Junia is often used, you can easily think: – Junia/June. What the Junia made junias can probably only be explained on the basis of a misguided understanding of ministry 4:00 Andronicus and Junia are described in Romans 16,7 as outstanding among the Apostles, and that has been a difficulty or a difficulty in counting Junia among the Apostles."
"It is quite natural for Paul: women appear in public, are publicly involved in the divine service, take on deaconesses' duties, are regarded as prophetesses, protectors, helpers, apostles – none of this is in question with Paul at all," says the author and pastor Angela Wäffler. (...)

Paul a misogynist?

For a long time, a completely different image of Paul prevailed. Paul was considered a misogynist. This is mainly due to a sentence in his letter to the church in Corinth: "As is customary in all the churches of the saints, women shall remain silent in the assembly; they are not allowed to talk. They should submit, as the law requires."
Heininger: "In my opinion, the requirement of silence in the first Letter to the Corinthians is a post-Pauline gloss or interpolation, so it is not Paul' that Paul says in the 11th chapter of the first Letter to the Corinthians that women should pray and prophesy with their heads covered, or a long hairstyle, whatever this should be translated. In the divine service, in the first Epistle to the Corinthians 11. This is fundamentally contradicted by the statement 1 Cor. 14 that the woman is silent in the church."
Sutter Rehmann: "This sentence has developed a very bad story of effect. Some say: this sentence should be put in brackets. In the Bible. For perhaps – quite surely, it does not come from the pen of Paul, it was inserted. Later. But that would actually leave out the story of the impact. And yet it worked, you are looking for this sentence, you have to be able to fight with it or put it in the right position."
Wäffler: "When we read the Bible, we always have to decide: What are our reference texts. And this sentence has been regarded as a reference for the position of women in the Church for centuries. From there, everything that can be read about women in the Bible has been interpreted and interpreted."
As a reference text, Angela Wäffler recommends another text: from Paul's letter to the Galatians: "You are all sons and daughters of God in Christ Jesus by faith, there are no more Jews and Greeks, not slaves and free men, not men and women, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Source: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/frau...ostelinnen.886.de.html?dram:article_id=272966)
The revised one-size-fits-all translation dares to be taught by new biblical science findings

The Unitary Translation 2016 incorporates the latest biblical scientific findings. These have revealed that

1) in all still existing biblical comments up to the Middle Ages was assumed from a "Junia".

2) the woman's name "Junia" was widely used in antiquity, while there is no evidence for the male name "Junias".

3) the term "apostle" is not the same as the 12 disciples around Jesus. The Apostles included many people, e.g. Paul, Andronicus mentioned above, and also women.

The one-size-fits-all translation does not invent anything, but tries to get closer to the original text. Source: https://www.bibelwerk.at/pages/katholischesbibelwerk/home/dasaktuellethema/article/123772.html)