Women cannot have authority in the congregation.

hornetguy · Aug 8, 2020

I partially agree.... IF that is what the student is putting their trust in.... the fallible word of man, then they are headed for failure. However, if the student is using other students' written thoughts, to expose themselves to different viewpoints, or to help eliminate "rabbit holes" that are so easy to go down... but rely on the Spirit to guide them to the truth... then there is much value in that. Reading other peoples' thoughts can speed up a process of learning the truth.

Look at the way Jewish boys learned scripture... they studied under "masters"... or rabbis. It is much like the old saying "no need to re-invent the wheel"

Scribe · Aug 8, 2020

Adstar said:

What do you mean by "having security in understanding scripture properly?" How would you arrive at your proper interpretation?

Scribe · Aug 8, 2020

Mem said:

Not following you. Who interpreted it?

Mem · Aug 8, 2020

Even tho aware that it would likely fail, and the argument for it was well in hand, I didn't have anything much else of value to add, so just played off the phrase (who knew it?)

Lafftur · Aug 8, 2020

Scribe said:

When the Holy Spirit gives understanding of a scripture from the Bible, it gives life to the person - you feel joy and peace in the truth - it’s knowledge that humbles you.

Without the Holy Spirit, any knowledge gleaned from scripture will puff us up with pride - we’ll think we know but, we actually don’t because God has hidden Himself in plain sight.....pride is blind, can’t see God even though God is standing right in front of us......only by the Holy Spirit will we know Truth and see God.

Lafftur · Aug 8, 2020

Lafftur said:

Hermeneutics is a good Bible study tool but, NOTHING compares to the Holy Spirit.

Just read the Bible and with a sincere heart ASK GOD QUESTIONS while you read.......the Holy Spirit will teach you and answer your questions....just sit still and seek Hod with all your heart.

Scribe · Aug 8, 2020

Scribe said:

Are you asking about the value of looking up an English phrase in a particular English translation to see where it occurs and then seeing if those passages are talking about the same thing?

You can find some passages that talk about the same subject that way, not always the same, as you may have discovered.

In Hermeneutics that exercise itself would probably fall under the category of theological context or cross referencing where else in the bible that subject is written about.

Looking up English phrases to see where they occur is not something I have seen mentioned as an exercise in hermeneutics but simply the admonition to "Compare the passage you are studying with other passages in the Bible that are discussing the same subject" IS a rule of hermeneutics that is called by different names. I call it Theological Context. That context of all the scriptures on a topic that give us the whole theological picture and must reconcile without contradiction. If ones' interpretation contradicts other scriptures on the same topic then that interpretation is wrong and we know that is NOT what the writer intended to say.

You have to use common sense to know whether the English phrase you searched for is in the same context from verse to verse. However that same subject will be discussed in many verses without using that English phrase so searching by a phrase is no way to find them all. Of course this is common sense.

Looking for a Greek word and how it is use in other places in the bible is also valuable but you still have to know Greek language rules just like English the same Greek word means different things in different context and sentence structure.

So you see that the rules of hermeneutics could also be called "common sense reading comprehension skills learned by completion of middle school but specifically as it applies to the Bible and also common sense methods of applying to your daily life thousands of years removed from the culture of the original audiences" See the need for one word to replace all that?

In the context of Christianity a common definition of heremeutics is the art and science of interpreting the Bible. Science because there are rules that must be followed, and art because there is an art to applying it to your personal life.

Scribe · Aug 8, 2020

Lafftur said:

Sounds good, but if the person is feeling all that Joy and Peace and Excitement and preaches Quit Ye Like Men means to quit acting like a mere man because you have the supernatural power of God in you. He may say the Spirit told him to use that text when he read it but it was not the Spirit.

It was a mistake he made understanding archaic language of the KJV. Quit Ye Like Men means Act like a man. That would be one example. I could give other real life mistakes in interpretation I have witnessed that are more serious and so can you. But even the ones that do not result in false teaching but simply using the wrong text to teach it is something that can easily be corrected.

Sometimes people can be so sure that the Spirit showed them what a scripture means and they do not do the basic study needed to make sure they are correct. If the preacher in my example would have looked up even one commentary, not to mention 5 or 10 he would have realized his mistake. The Spirit probably WAS telling him to preach on that text and that is why he was so ENERGIZED when he read it, but recognizing the Spirit's leading he failed to do the responsible hermeneutical work such as checking commentaries to see if his interpretation is confirmed by others and also to find other gems that he may have overlooked about that passage and the context of his text as all verses should be preached from context. If so he would have probably discovered a much BETTER, and MUCH MORE SPIRIT EMPOWERED message about what The Holy Spirit and the Paul intended when he said Quit Ye Like Men which is THE message that should have been preached. A very powerful and SPIRIT inspired message can and should be preached from that statement but ONLY in the context in which it was intended and NEVER as a mistake in definition. Quit Acting like a Mere Man was NOT what Paul was saying, and it was NOT what the Holy Spirit was saying and even if the idea is a good one it is NOT OK to say that this is what Paul meant if he did NOT.

garee · Aug 8, 2020

Scribe said:

Its not common sense. But a sense that comes from hearing (sola scriptura) faith the unseen comparing it to the same or called face to face or faith to faith . Common sense makes it as it is written to no effect as oral traditions of men

Common sense. . no faith coming from God does not look to the foundation of the doctrines of God that come down like rain . Common faithless sense look's to satisfy the words of ones own mouth. . the doctrines of men and not the mouth of God and they see no evil in doing so.

Jerimiah 44: 16;17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Common sense destroyed the foundation of the doctrines like the doctrine of Tongues found in Isaiah 28. The same kind of men in Jeremiah 44 above. They have their own kind of authority. Yet for all the warning they still make a noise without meaning and fallback slain in the spirit as a sign against them . And call it a "sign gift" as a lying wonder.

Isaiah 28: 9-13 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? 10 He speaks to us as though we were babies:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”[b]
11 So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

12 In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But they would not listen to him. 13 So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”
When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

There is no such things as a sign self edifying gift. Spiritual gifts not seen yes.

Dino246 · Aug 8, 2020

garee said:

Its not common sense. But a sense that comes from hearing (sola scriptura) faith the unseen comparing it to the same or called face to face or faith to faith . Common sense makes it as it is written to no effect as oral traditions of men

Common sense. . no faith coming from God does not look to the foundation of the doctrines of God that come down like rain . Common faithless sense look's to satisfy the words of ones own mouth. . the doctrines of men and not the mouth of God and they see no evil in doing so.

Jerimiah 44: 16;17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Common sense destroyed the foundation of the doctrines like the doctrine of Tongues found in Isaiah 28. The same kind of men in Jeremiah 44 above. They have their own kind of authority. Yet for all the warning they still make a noise without meaning and fallback slain in the spirit as a sign against them . And call it a "sign gift" as a lying wonder.

Isaiah 28: 9-13 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? 10 He speaks to us as though we were babies:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”[b]
11 So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

12 In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But they would not listen to him. 13 So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”
When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

There is no such things as a sign self edifying gift. Spiritual gifts not seen yes.

Why are you making comments about spiritual gifts and tongues into a thread about the role of women in the church, in response to a post about hermeneutics?

PLEASE look up the word "relevant" and start applying it in your posts. If what you have to say is not RELEVANT to the thread topic, or directly RELEVANT to the post to which you are responding (which your post is not), then please don't post it!

garee · Aug 8, 2020

Dino246 said:

The idea a sign gift.. . . resists faith (the unseen)

It has do with the new sign (not a wonder) in the new testament as a cerimoninil law. Previously Jewish men and woman were separated by high walls just as the gentile were separated from the Hebrew woman. Neither could participate in the ceremonies . . A great tribulation like none before or ever gain came , the time of reformation. It has come and it is still doing its (sola scriptura) work as a labor of His love restoring the hearts of men. .

New rules as guiding principles were needed to show no difference in authority between male and female , Jew or Gentile .A display to the world of the upcoming wedding Supper and consummations with the bride. (not self edifying wonder)

The abomination of desolation Kings in Israel had come to a end Satan could no longer deceive all the nation in that way. lying wonders .

Lafftur · Aug 8, 2020

Scribe said:

Sounds good, but if the person is feeling all that Joy and Peace and Excitement and preaches Quit Ye Like Men means to quit acting like a mere man because you have the supernatural power of God in you. He may say the Spirit told him to use that text when he read it but it was not the Spirit.

It was a mistake he made understanding archaic language of the KJV. Quit Ye Like Men means Act like a man. That would be one example. I could give other real life mistakes in interpretation I have witnessed that are more serious and so can you. But even the ones that do not result in false teaching but simply using the wrong text to teach it is something that can easily be corrected.

Sometimes people can be so sure that the Spirit showed them what a scripture means and they do not do the basic study needed to make sure they are correct. If the preacher in my example would have looked up even one commentary, not to mention 5 or 10 he would have realized his mistake. The Spirit probably WAS telling him to preach on that text and that is why he was so ENERGIZED when he read it, but recognizing the Spirit's leading he failed to do the responsible hermeneutical work such as checking commentaries to see if his interpretation is confirmed by others and also to find other gems that he may have overlooked about that passage and the context of his text as all verses should be preached from context. If so he would have probably discovered a much BETTER, and MUCH MORE SPIRIT EMPOWERED message about what The Holy Spirit and the Paul intended when he said Quit Ye Like Men which is THE message that should have been preached. A very powerful and SPIRIT inspired message can and should be preached from that statement but ONLY in the context in which it was intended and NEVER as a mistake in definition. Quit Acting like a Mere Man was NOT what Paul was saying, and it was NOT what the Holy Spirit was saying and even if the idea is a good one it is NOT OK to say that this is what Paul meant if he did NOT.

Only Pride misinterprets scripture and relies only on human reasoning for understanding.

The Holy Spirit is NOT depending on us to do hermeneutics before He can give us understanding.

ALL the examples you gave are the result of Pride which is blind and thinks it knows more than others, it is all puffed up with human reasoning and REJECTS dependency on the Holy Spirit.

SoulWeaver · Aug 8, 2020

Lafftur said:

The importance of the Spirit can never be neglected, you are right about that, but I think you are taking @Scribe in a wrong way here, Sis.

I've never once seen our brother Scribe treat others with arrogance or speak from oh high on the forums...

It is very proudful when some people out there search the Scripture hoping to find in there not God, but their own opinions, only spoken in a mightier voice, and then say "I was led by the Spirit" when they didn't search God's insight but searched for what their ears wanted to hear and what was appealing to their ideas. Which is what I think Scribe is coming against here, and study is then useful to correct such teachings which is the job of teachers in the church.

Scribe · Aug 8, 2020

Lafftur said:

The Holy Spirit does not ask us to stop using our ability to think. Of course we should use our God given human reasoning. We should not use any other kind of reasoning. I am not sure that there is any other kind of reasoning. Humans are unique among all other animals because we are the only ones that God gave reasoning to. We can be WRONG in our reasoning. And we can be RIGHT in our reasoning, but we are never WITHOUT reasoning.

Scribe · Aug 8, 2020

Lafftur said:

There is no contradiction between hermeneutics and being enlightened, and illuminated by the Holy Spirit. One of the rules of hermeneutics is praying for God to give spiritual understanding and also to reveal what the Holy Spirit intended for us to understand. With that as the foundation of our efforts we then examine context, culture, shades of meaning in original language, type of literature (poetry, epistle, parable, prophesy etc..) and all the other rules that require a reasoning brain while relying on the Holy Spirit who gave us a brain and a spirit. No contradiction. Study to show thyself approved, give thyself wholly to these things, these are the kinds of scripture references for hermeneutics in the New Testament.

My friend in the example was not so much guilty of pride from my perspective, (I do not know, God knows the heart) he was more acting on zeal without knowledge. He had what he thought was a divinely inspired idea from the scriptures and was running with it. Now many do this and do not want to look at a commentary because they are afraid that "human reasoning" or anyone elses input might "taint" their supernatural channel they have tuned into. They are afraid that one wrong move and they will loose the station of the "spirit" I don't need any commentaries, they say. I got this Straight from GAWD... yes, that could be pride. I see your point.

Angela53510 · Aug 8, 2020

Adstar said:

The only way you can truly understand Scripture is to understand proper hermeneutics. That word means Bible interpretation. That is where all the major mistakes come from. Not interpreting something correctly, from any translation or version.

Knowing the original languages well, also helps. I read the NT in Greek every day. Sometimes I see things there that get lost in translation. Then I do refer to commentaries, lexicons and other exegetical tools. Nothing mysterious, just facts.

And theology is a totally different ball of wax than just understanding the Bible. Theology is more of a synthesis of what the Bible says. So, as Nehemiah just posted how wrong oneness Pentecostals are, that is a heretical theology. A correct theology would be the Trinity. But, as you do read the Bible over and over, it becomes apparent that Nehemiah is right in saying that Oneness people are heretics. So, using the Bible to make doctrine, IMO, should never be done without a good knowledge of Greek. Of course, this issue has been going on since the third century AD (325) at the Council of Nicaea. It was actually solved by a lot of people who understood Greek extremely well. Plus, reading the Bible, without any kind of tools or helps also shows Jesus to be divine, not just some kind of manifestation of God.

So, you can go back and read everything written on this topic, in Greek, including the Bible, which I have been doing, or just read the Bible, and you will find the same thing. The theology has been there for 1700 years. But it is still found in English Bibles.

I feel called to study using the tools, and reading the Patriarchs and the many correct theologians. But, that doesn't make me any better. Nor does it mean I put my trust in people. I trust God has made sure the truth which was debated 1700 years ago, is still found in the Bible today. As for knowing the tools, what does the Bible say??

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:14-17

The Bible is clear that we are to learn and study. And learn from people who know! Anyone that trashes higher learning, is trashing what the Bible instructs us to do. I hope you are not doing that, out of your ignorance, Adstar?

lenna · Aug 8, 2020

Lafftur said:

maybe that is you personal walk? but half the posts in this forum are the result of people either writing what they say God told them to write...most of the time that is news to God but anyway

or people who say they only take their instructions from God or the Holy Spirit is their only teacher, while the Bible is very clear that teaching is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit

Christians need to avail themselves of good study materials and not misinterpret scripture and state they need no one BUT the Holy Spirit.

There is no pride involved, but a desire to get things right.

Scribe actually said to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth in scripture which I guess you missed

smh

lenna · Aug 8, 2020

Lafftur said:

that is simply not true

very sincere and godly people also misinterpret scripture

Scribe · Aug 8, 2020

lenna said:

I think she just does not like the word hermeneutics. This is a common reaction. Many are concerned that it is some kind of complicated thing invented by theologians and not understandable to common folk. The revulsion to words that seem to be obfuscating concepts that can be easily grasped. Why use words that people have to look up in a dictionary. I get it. I would normally not use the word hermeneutics while preaching to a common church congregation. Unless of course I was going to take the time to teach on hermeneutics and explain rules of interpreting scripture. Normally I would just say "common sense rules of interpreting scriptures" instead of hermeneutics because I don't want to trigger anyone to completely shut down and stop listening to anything else I preach the rest of the sermon. And that will happen with much of the congregation today.

I won't even use the word exegesis. Instead I will say "we are going to examine the text in an attempt to understand what the author intended to say and read out of the text what is there instead of reading into the text what we want it to say." If I were to use the word exegesis very few in a normal congregation would know what I mean, and unless I define it I am not communicating and if I am not communicating I am wasting everyone's time. Even if I do take the time to define the words it will not suffice for many folks who are immediately triggered by the use of these words. They associate them with someone who is not spiritual or is too intellectual to believe in the supernatural or something like that. You would have to ask them why the use of the word irritates them but judging from the responses I get in CC when these words are used I am guessing that they think that it is not spiritual for the person to use them.

lenna · Aug 8, 2020

Scribe said:

it's a sad reaction. it should not be only teachers or pastors or elders that understand these words or practice them

I agree that when people are at the beginning of their walk, it can be overwhelming, but it is necessary instruction

I can only say again the reason we have so much dodgy stuff out there purporting to be a revelation of the Holy Spirit is BECAUSE people are anti study, thinking the Holy Spirit will not steer them wrong, while either ignorant of or ignoring all warnings in scripture about deception.

The internet is rife with garbage that people tell you is from God. Dreams, prophecies and all kinds of antics that are not God but are definitely from some spirit.

I appreciate your explanation that it may just be the use of certain words that triggers some people. I will leave it there because I have my own thoughts on the matter and do not think it is always just 'big' words that turn people off.

Well frankly I also think there are spiritual causes at times as well. That expands error and creates entire churches that are involved in all kinds of spiritual nonsense and it is not God

Women cannot have authority in the congregation.

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