word of faith movement

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
I speak many things Preacher but most important my children. You don't?

Almost left this slide because I didn't notice. As God? No. Sons. Speaking for God.
I read and pray with my family, I don't create as God as you allege to do.

And the answer is always vague meaning there was nothing created. It is always this with WoF.

You said as God creating, and now you're back pedaling and now it's only speaking. Please stop this unbiblical nonsense, none of it is true, none of it is biblical.

Tell me what exactly you've created as God lately since you've made the claim.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
We've gone from "creating as God" to a reduced role of "speaking for God." The former claim degenerated rather quickly! :D
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
We've gone from "creating as God" to a reduced role of "speaking for God." The former claim degenerated rather quickly! :D
Words are creative. I'm not God. But, i an connected to Him so I speaking the promises of Him over my children, my grandchildren, and my great grand children.

You are trying to make what is right seem wrong. Casting doubt. Is beneath a Preacher of the Word.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
I read and pray with my family, I don't create as God as you allege to do.

And the answer is always vague meaning there was nothing created. It is always this with WoF.

You said as God creating, and now you're back pedaling and now it's only speaking. Please stop this unbiblical nonsense, none of it is true, none of it is biblical.

Tell me what exactly you've created as God lately since you've made the claim.
You can make or break your children by what you say, and how you present FathercGod to them.

And orhers here too. A critical spirit is not a characteristic found in the scriptures to be from the Lord.

So do words create preacher?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,769
113
Now can you quote what the Bible says about faith and the power of His Word?
I could certainly quote Scripture, but the real issue is how the WOF preachers turn Scripture on its head. Here is just one example:

I am justified by my words. I have the faith of Jesus Christ in me, for Jesus is in me, and He is the Author and Finisher of my faith. I speak unto the mountains of sickness and disease and they obey my words and leave. I have authority and power over all disease and sickness; I command them to leave and they obey my words. I lay my hands on the sick and they recover. (John Osteen, father of Joel Osteen)
1. I am justified by my words. This has been taken out of context and applied to the Word of Faith doctrine. But the Lord was warning Christians to avoid idle words, because they would be judged for every word they have uttered: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Mt 12:36,37) How in the world could Osteen take this and claim I am justified by my words. Christians are justified by grace through faith.

2. Can Christians say "I have the faith of Jesus Christ"? That would mean that God has faith in Himself, and then projects that faith on Himself through Christians. But you will not find any Scripture to support such a bizarre concept. God simply is -- I AM THAT I AM. On the other hand, does the Word of God generate faith in Christians? Absolutely (Rom 10:17) but that is believing IN and believing ON the Lord Jesus Christ, not Christ believing in Himself. That would be absurd.

3. Can Christians say "I have authority and power over all disease and sickness"? If this were true then every hospital in the world would be empty. Christians would simply walk in and command all sicknesses and diseases to leave, and everyone would go home healthy and happy.

Do you see how difficult it would be to deal with WOF people when they turn Scripture on its head?
 
Last edited:
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
How about you pointing out where I twisted something and I'll discuss it with you.
Okay, let's discuss this unbiblical idea you have:
Words are creative. I'm not God. But, i an connected to Him so I speaking the promises of Him over my children, my grandchildren, and my great grand children.

You are trying to make what is right seem wrong. Casting doubt. Is beneath a Preacher of the Word.
We can begin with you giving the Biblical text that is supposed to support this?
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
168
13
18
No offense, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Kenneth Hagin didn't put much emphasis on money, and he didn't get rich by teaching "give to get". He took a salary and all of the proceeds from the sales of books and tapes went back into the ministry fund. And he didn't die from the thing he claimed to be healed of. He was born with a deformed heart and an incurable blood disease. He didn't die from a blood disease, and he didn't die from a deformed heart. He died from an OLD heart. He was 86 years old. When he was 16 his doctor told him that even if his heart was normal the blood disease alone would kill him, and that nobody with his condition ever lived beyond the age of 16. Kenneth Hagin lived another 70 years.
Kenneth Hagin is the grandfather of the WOF movement. He and the others who made its heterodox teachings popular taught that if you aren't prosperous then you aren't believing for it and giving them enough money. Yet they were the only ones getting rich. Did you know he died of the same illness that he claims he was healed from.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
No offense, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Kenneth Hagin didn't put much emphasis on money, and he didn't get rich by teaching "give to get". He took a salary and all of the proceeds from the sales of books and tapes went back into the ministry fund. And he didn't die from the thing he claimed to be healed of. He was born with a deformed heart and an incurable blood disease. He didn't die from a blood disease, and he didn't die from a deformed heart. He died from an OLD heart. He was 86 years old. When he was 16 his doctor told him that even if his heart was normal the blood disease alone would kill him, and that nobody with his condition ever lived beyond the age of 16. Kenneth Hagin lived another 70 years.


It doesn't surprise me how the truth of the matter gets totally distorted when people have been taught and told information over the years. Before you know it., the person and the info about both are totally unrecognizable from the reality.

While I've been watching the news and politics in the U.S. over the last year especially since voting in a new president., it astounds me how much fake news and distortion about people is out there in order to prove an agenda. And so it gives me a huge kick in the ribs to never ever just take the news about my country or people based on so called "facts" that are being reported.

I've discovered over the years unless we investigate and talk to and listen ., we will not know the truth about what they believe and who they really are and what they stand for. We will be victims of a distorted reality "biases" based on many things having to do with other people's personal preferences, personal past experiences and many many conjectures based on "facts" that were not true in the first place.

No wonder God gave such warnings about the tongue and why it is such a seemingly small thing yet what it can do is astounding. It can so bless others or it can so curse and wreak havoc in their lives. For us Christians there should not be blessing and cursing coming out of our mouths.

I hope some will take the time to read this from James and instead of listening to what we think is real., listen to those who are telling us what they are and what they actually do believe.... not what we 'think' they believe based on our past experiences or based on what we were told. James 3:2-15

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For we all often stumble and fall and offend in many things. And if anyone does not offend in speech [never says the wrong things], he is a fully developed character and a perfect man, able to control his whole body and to curb his entire nature.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]If we set bits in the horses’ mouths to make them obey us, we can turn their whole bodies about.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Likewise, look at the ships: though they are so great and are driven by rough winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the impulse of the helmsman determines.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Even so the tongue is a little member, and it can boast of great things. See how much wood or how great a forest a tiny spark can set ablaze!
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]And the tongue is a fire. [The tongue is a] world of wickedness set among our members, contaminating and depraving the whole body and setting on fire the wheel of birth (the cycle of man’s nature), being itself ignited by hell (Gehenna).
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea animal, can be tamed and has been tamed by human genius (nature).
[SUP]
8 [/SUP]But the human tongue can be tamed by no man. It is a restless (undisciplined, irreconcilable) evil, full of deadly poison.
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God’s likeness!
[SUP]
10 [/SUP]Out of the same mouth come forth blessing and cursing. These things, my brethren, ought not to be so.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]Does a fountain send forth [simultaneously] from the same opening fresh water and bitter?
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can a salt spring furnish fresh water.
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]Who is there among you who is wise and intelligent? Then let him by his noble living show forth his [good] works with the [unobtrusive] humility [which is the proper attribute] of true wisdom.
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]But if you have bitter jealousy (envy) and contention (rivalry, selfish ambition) in your hearts, do not pride yourselves on it and thus be in defiance of and false to the Truth.
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]This [superficial] wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual (animal), even devilish (demoniacal)



 
Last edited:

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Okay, let's discuss this unbiblical idea you have:

We can begin with you giving the Biblical text that is supposed to support this?
Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Want another? I saw no response.

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Proverbs 12:18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.
 
Last edited:
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
the 'word of faith movement', is nothing more than those seeking an identity and
companionship with their Holy Father - and this is where satan prevails, because
Jesus only calls His elected and chosen for the times at hand, to do His Will...
no man can take His Place or preach His Grace, except by The Holy Spirit...
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
You beat me to it sir. That's the very first scripture verse that came to my mine when I read the other guy's post.
Honestly, they don't know what they are getting into, because the bible is so full of scripture that talks about the power of OUR tongue, that it borders on the ridiculous, as far as them not being able to see these things.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
the 'word of faith movement', is nothing more than those seeking an identity and
companionship with their Holy Father - and this is where satan prevails, because
Jesus only calls His elected and chosen for the times at hand, to do His Will...
no man can take His Place or preach His Grace, except by The Holy Spirit...
I talked on this subject at length awhile back, asking anyone to come up with one verse the disproves WOF, and do you know what I got? Only one verse that had nothing to do with the subject.
No one, not even one person could come up with one shred of evidence to disprove WOF is of the devil or not of God.
Would you like to try?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
I could certainly quote Scripture, but the real issue is how the WOF preachers turn Scripture on its head. Here is just one example:
Please do, I've been looking for at least one person to give me something to work with.
Like I already said, no one was able to give me a single verse that disproved WOF.
So please, by all means, show me something.

1. I am justified by my words. This has been taken out of context and applied to the Word of Faith doctrine. But the Lord was warning Christians to avoid idle words, because they would be judged for every word they have uttered: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Mt 12:36,37) How in the world could Osteen take this and claim I am justified by my words. Christians are justified by grace through faith.
I would like to explain possibly, why Osteen said that he was "justified" by his words. This is only a guess.
As I understand it, faith is dead without a corresponding work, according to James, and since the just shall live by faith, and the words you speak are a form of a work of faith, even as Jesus called His words a work, one could say they are justified by their words. After all, speaking what you believe in your heart, IS how faith works.


2. Can Christians say "I have the faith of Jesus Christ"? That would mean that God has faith in Himself, and then projects that faith on Himself through Christians. But you will not find any Scripture to support such a bizarre concept. God simply is -- I AM THAT I AM. On the other hand, does the Word of God generate faith in Christians? Absolutely (Rom 10:17) but that is believing IN and believing ON the Lord Jesus Christ, not Christ believing in Himself. That would be absurd.
I am surprised you would question this one sir.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Read your side note on what Jesus said, and you will see that it says, (or HAVE THE FAITH OF GOD)
Even our faith is not our own. It both came from and is of God.

3. Can Christians say "I have authority and power over all disease and sickness"? If this were true then every hospital in the world would be empty. Christians would simply walk in and command all sicknesses and diseases to leave, and everyone would go home healthy and happy.
Again, if you believe what is written, we do indeed have power over all sicknesses and diseases.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
All sicknesses and diseases are the result of a demonic spirit, and as the scripture says, they are subject to us, in the name of Jesus, by the power in the word of God or the word of faith.
What Jesus gave to his disciple, we have been given as well, through the Holy Ghost.
However, God did not give us power over other people's lives. Also, if you haven't already been told, Jesus could not do any might works in His home town BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF.
And besides that, it's usually more complicated than that when dealing with other people's problems.

Do you see how difficult it would be to deal with WOF people when they turn Scripture on its head?
You do realize that to us who believe in words of faith, that is a totally fabricated lie, and so some of us anyway, just pass it off as another perversion of the truth.
My conscience is clear. I don't see myself perverting or twisting or even misinterpreting scripture concerning WOF.
If you are going to get anywhere with those who believe in WOF, you have to disprove it through the scriptures they use. If you can't do that, then you're just spinning your wheel, so to speak.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
i would like to try and spread the Love of Jesus and include everyone who Loves Him,
according to the First and Second Commandments: no arguments here brother...
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
Ro 10:8 is about confessing that Jesus is Lord (Jehovah) not making WOF positive confessions for health and wealth.
I never said anything about health and wealth. Why does that subject continue to come up. What does that have to do with words of faith?
Please stick to the topic of discussion. It's about WORDS of faith. What you do with it is your own business, but health and wealth is not what WOF is.
No sir, you missed it. Verses 9 and 10 are about confessing Jesus. Verses 6-8 are about words of faith that was written in the old testament.
Verses 9 and 10 are simply a demonstration of what verses 6-8 are talking about, which is the word of faith.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The whole thing keeps saying, from the heart out the mouth, believe in your heart, confess what you believe with your mouth.
 
Last edited:

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
This is the essence of bad hermeneutics.

So, today in church, I decided to call WoF - the religion with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Which comes from all your out of context verses. I did answer a post of yours, but I was on my iPad, so I emailed it to myself to do more justice to the rebuttal. So, that is why we are cross posting.

Every single verse you posted in this is out of context. You twist the Bible verses to mean something the complete text doesn't say.

1. There is only one place in the whole Bible it says “Word of Faith”. That Romans 10:8 you quoted above. You should NEVER make a doctrine out of one verse! If “Word of Faith” was that important, it would be all over the place. For instance, the word “cross” is all over the NT. Look that up in Biblegateway.com and there are 85 hits in the ESV, which follows the basic pattern and wording of the KJV, which I don’t understand. You can make a sure doctrine of importance of the cross in Christianity!

2. You have pulled Romans 10:8 out of context. What is Paul talking about? Salvation, plain and simple. That is what the gospel is all about. Even speaking in tongues, on the day of Pentecost was about people from every nation hearing the gospel, so they would be saved. Here is the context, which you lost in all your bolding, sizing and colouring! And God is the one who saves us, we do not save ourselves with words, thoughts or deeds!

”But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:8-12

The entire passage, including the preceding verse is talking about SALVATION. Just like all the other verses Word of Faith pulls out of context, from the OT and the NT. And it is not talking about "our words" but the work of Jesus on the cross! And belief is what matters, we are not saved by our words, but by God!

3. Luke 6 - it is talking about fruit, not about words controlling things! If you would just read the surrounding verses, you would realize Jesus is talking about fruit. And the reason we bear fruit, is not the superficial words we say, but the HEART. That is what is important. Heart comes first. No amount of mouthing words does anything if the heart is not first changed and then transformed by God.

”For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit,44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.” Luke 6:43-45

Fruit has two aspects;
1. Character:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Gal. 5:22-23. Paul is contrasting the works of the flesh, in Gal. 19-21 with the fruit of the Spirit! The fruit of the Spirit is the good fruit.

2. Commission: Jesus also talks about “bearing fruit” as being part of the gospel, which is the witness of the gospel to the lost.

”And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;11 being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy;” Col. 1:9-11

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.” John 15:1-11


Why did Jesus call his disciples in the first place? Was it so they could sit around talking about faith to themselves? And what was the last message he gave them, before he ascended into heaven, which is written in several places? It was to make disciples. The Great Commission, bearing fruit, is all about making disciples. And not disciples of some narcissistic religion of the self but making disciples who love and follow Christ. Not their own words, spoken boldly with lots of colouring and bolding.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matt 28:18-20

So, what is the real gospel?

”Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.” 1 Cor. 15:1-11

And further down, just to be clear, Jesus is the first FRUIT! And we should be imitating him in being fruit. Not once in 1 Cor. 15 does Paul say anything about being saved by words. In fact, we don't save ourselves at all! It is God who saves us, first, then we go and tell people what Christ has done for us.

“But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Cor. 15:20-28

Not once in this entire clear statement of faith, does he mention word, words of faith or speaking utterances! Instead, it is all about Jesus! Who lived, died on the cross for our sins, and then raised from the dead, the firstfruits of the Kingdom of God!

3. You have totally missed the Christian “faith” is about Jesus. Not about “MY” anything. Not my words, my utterances. What a counterfeit gospel. Look to Jesus, and perhaps he will save you from this deceptive and destructive lie from the devil, which is certainly “another gospel.” See what Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 about WHAT the gospel is, as I have excerpted above. Read the context, which is both 1 & 2 Corinthians, and the rest of the Bible!

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.” 2 Cor. 11:14
There is so much you are missing.
Jesus gave a parable of the sower sowing seed. If He didn't interpret it for you, all you would see is someone sowing or dropping literal seeds around, and that's all you are seeing with the things I've been accentuating in scripture. It was for the purpose of you possibly SEEING it.
There is simply too much twisting, ignoring, missing,... etc, for me to respond to this post. It would take me hours of wasted time to fix this mess.
I'm sorry, I don't even want to try to give a rebuttal.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
No offense, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Kenneth Hagin didn't put much emphasis on money, and he didn't get rich by teaching "give to get". He took a salary and all of the proceeds from the sales of books and tapes went back into the ministry fund. And he didn't die from the thing he claimed to be healed of. He was born with a deformed heart and an incurable blood disease. He didn't die from a blood disease, and he didn't die from a deformed heart. He died from an OLD heart. He was 86 years old. When he was 16 his doctor told him that even if his heart was normal the blood disease alone would kill him, and that nobody with his condition ever lived beyond the age of 16. Kenneth Hagin lived another 70 years.
Yes, Hagin put a lot of emphasis on money. Just off the top of my head:
What God Taught Me About Properity
Faith Takes
Godliness Is Profitable
How To Succeed In Life
How To Write Your Own Ticket With God
Knowing What Belongs To Us
Obedience In Finances
You Can Have What You Say
...and more
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
Wow! More Greek scholars! I'm delighted to meet you. First, you don't put up the actual verses where you are quoting the Greek, although I am going to search them out. Second, neither of you knows a thing about Greek, or you would be posting it. Feel free to use any exegetical tools you need. But, WoF preachers who literally do not know how to read and exegete the Greek or Hebrew, do not count!

Stones of Fire:

"Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." Hebrews 4:11-13 ESV

"ῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ἐνεργὴς καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον καὶ διϊκνούμενος ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καὶ πνεύματος, ἁρμῶν τε καὶ μυελῶν, καὶ κριτικὸς ἐνθυμήσεων καὶ ἐννοιῶν καρδίας·" Hebrews 4:12 Greek

I'm hoping these are the verses you were talking about.

ἐνεργὴς or energas - energetic active, productive. The word is used in activities that produce results, and often for divine activity that produces results. God's power, not ours.

ὑπὲρ - hyper - than. The word is used as a comparative construction: sharper than, sharper beyond. Anyone know what figures of speech use comparison? Well, simile, with like or as, and a metaphor, without those words. So, by using this comparison, he is talking about a metaphor that compares what a sharp sword does, to the divine activity of God. And yes, that divine activity is definitely found in the Word of God. The Bible. But, not in our words. Our words have no power to divide, to be sharp. Only the Holy Spirit in us can do that. We can say words from the Bible till we are blue in the face, and it means nothing until we have the power of the Holy Spirit.

μάχαιραν - machairan - sword

various other words, like
δίστομον or double edged, two edged; διϊκνούμενος which means "to pass through, to pierce, to penetrate, μερισμοῦ - dividing; ἁρμῶν - joint; μυελῶν marrow.

Together, these
expressions serve to convey effectively the notion of the extreme penetrating of the word of God, to the core of one's being! Further, the word is "active" in the sense that it speeds to fulfill the purpose for which it has been said. The "word of God" in this passage is parallel not such mucho "the all-powerful word" but rather as "thy authentic command" (referring to God) that is described as a sharp sword.

However, the divine word is not merely described as a sharp sword, but as sharper than the sharpest sword. The words which follow "as it pierces, it divides the soul from spirit, the joints from marrow" are to be understood as "rhetorical or metaphorical accumulation of terms to express the whole mental nature of people on all side. The idea of dividing the joints and marrow suggests the division of the body into its members, hence joints and marrow are attributed to them, expressing the subtle articulations of the spiritual being and the innermost nature and substance of it.

In other words, the word of God probes the inmost recesses of our spiritual being and brings the subconscious motives to light, we may compare Paul's language about the coming day when the Lord "will bring to light both the things hidden in darkness, and make manifest the counsel of the hearts. (1 Cor. 4:5) It is not surprising that a judicial function here is attributed to the word of God. It is "discrimination of the heart's thoughts and intents" With the function here ascribed to the word of God, we may compare "heart-knowing" as applied to God himself in Acts 1:24; 15:8 Please notice verse 11 - the writer of Hebrews is saying we should not fall into disobedience. Nothing to do with uttering words. This is an admonition that God's activity will bring to light what is in our hearts!

That is the what the Greek says! Nothing to do with a sword in his mouth, in Revelation, written many years later. In fact, the sword here is used as a metaphor, of God's activity in our hearts and lives. Please do not answer me without referring to the actual Greek.


Know1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
"Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." John 1:1 Greek


"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14 ESV
"Καὶ ὁλόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας·" John 1:14 Greek


There is so much richness in these texts, I could write a whole book on them. What they do not point to is some shallow, utterance or speech we make. What they are talking about is Jesus, none other!

The designation "Word" is used in a Christological sense in both the above verses. It conveys the notion of divine self-expression or speech. (Divine, not ours!). As a comprehensive Christological title, the expression "Word" or λόγος (logos) encompasses Jesus' entire ministry, placing all of Jesus works and words within the framework of both his eternal being and existence and God's self revelation in history.

Bauer (BDAG) is a Greek Lexicon and it has over 3 pages on the word
λόγος. (pages 598-601) Here are the three main definitions.

1. a communication whereby the mind finds expression, word. This definition is the broadest, often used to communicate the gospel, in the Bible. The power is the power of God, not the power of the words. Greeks used this word somewhat differently, oratory being raised to an art form. People loved speeches, in those days, especially the Greeks.

2. computation, reckoning. A formal accounting of one's actions and frequently used with commercial terminology! This includes settlement of an account; reflection, for the sake of, regard or respect. Further, the reason of cause of something - reason, ground, motive; with whom we have to reckon.

3. the independent personified expression of God, the Logos. This is my explanation above, from commentaries, and interestingly enough, is implied in Hebrews 4:12 above, and 13:7.

So, if you knew Greek, you would recognize there are three distinctive different definitions of the word,
λόγος, depending upon context. I would advise you to get a copy of Bauer, for further study. He goes extensively into all the places where this word appears in the GNT and early church history.


What I am seeing, is Word of Faith not knowing Greek, but claiming to. And in the process, taking verses like 1 Cor. 4:19, 20, or Luke 5:1 and thinking it is talking about divinity, when in fact, that is the third definition, not the first.

Of course, I am only guessing, since NO VERSES with λόγος have actually been quoted!


So, no, neither of you has a clue about Greek! Not a single clue! Not what the word definitions, Greek grammar nor Greek context.

Don't bother responding to me with your pretend, sound bite Greek, or throwing out opinions. If you quote the Greek, use a reputable source. I'll put my sources I used for this post below. And none of them were preachers who not only did not know Greek, but are some of the finest sources available. And please do not go on about only needing the New Testament, not the "words of men!" I was quite content just to quote the Bible in context, it was you two who brought up the meanings of the Greek words, about which you know nothing about. I do detest when people bring up Greek, when they have never studied a word of it. And that includes both WoF and hypergrace teachers, preachers and charlatans. (Ok, they are all charlatans!) And their followers, who also don't know any Greek.


Bauer (BDAG) The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Church Literature Third Edition

Cleon Rogers Jr & Cleon Rogers III The New Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament

Andreas J. Köstenberger - John: The Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament

J. Ramsey Michaels - The Gospel of John: The New International Commentary on the New Testament.
Well, I'll say this much. Your understanding of the Greek language is pretty impressive.
But why did you just criticize only those with whom you disagree with?

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Shame shame.
Your disdain toward some of us is shining through, more and more.
Try and tone it down a little please. Maybe take a break like I do.