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P
I would say so.
Those hagin haters are ignorant. Smith wiggleworth operated in faith,and by faith. one of his books is "ever increasing faith"
Thank God he lived at a time when the modern day slime-meisters can not touch him.
God forbid he pushed a little girl in kindergarten or some other rediculous nonsense.
It is comical,however that they think prosperity,blessing and faith are demonic curses. funny actually
Those hagin haters are ignorant. Smith wiggleworth operated in faith,and by faith. one of his books is "ever increasing faith"
Thank God he lived at a time when the modern day slime-meisters can not touch him.
God forbid he pushed a little girl in kindergarten or some other rediculous nonsense.
It is comical,however that they think prosperity,blessing and faith are demonic curses. funny actually
S
Try expounding on that thought, because it is just an accusation without giving anything to back.
I could say "Then they are all cat-lovers. you included." and it would hold the same weight.
I understand that you hold "Word of Faith" in high regard, but then you go and accuse the rest of us, who see WoF as false doctrine, of viewing Faith itself as a "bad thing".
It is clear that "Word of Faith" is a distortion of true Faith, and that it's basic premise is in "mind over matter", just reworded to sound biblical.
I could say "Then they are all cat-lovers. you included." and it would hold the same weight.
I understand that you hold "Word of Faith" in high regard, but then you go and accuse the rest of us, who see WoF as false doctrine, of viewing Faith itself as a "bad thing".
It is clear that "Word of Faith" is a distortion of true Faith, and that it's basic premise is in "mind over matter", just reworded to sound biblical.
P
Jesus is the word.
The word is what a believer stands on for answered prayer.
This whole anti-faith thing is a "broad brush into oblivion"
You can not take a stand against FAITH IN THE SPOKEN WORD.
That is the PROVING/CATALYST of faith.
All you experts make a critical mistake. You find yourselves going against the word of God.
Look how simple and basic it really is;
Heb 11 (the FAITH chapter...for you experts)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Oh,no!!! run for the hills,now God himself is teaching heresay.
Lets see,I can not please God unless I believe he rewards me.
Where will you go now that you have just learned all of christianity is error?
The word is what a believer stands on for answered prayer.
This whole anti-faith thing is a "broad brush into oblivion"
You can not take a stand against FAITH IN THE SPOKEN WORD.
That is the PROVING/CATALYST of faith.
All you experts make a critical mistake. You find yourselves going against the word of God.
Look how simple and basic it really is;
Heb 11 (the FAITH chapter...for you experts)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Oh,no!!! run for the hills,now God himself is teaching heresay.
Lets see,I can not please God unless I believe he rewards me.
Where will you go now that you have just learned all of christianity is error?
P
You are assuming. You would be wrong.
I hold the Bible in high regard.
You do not know that,anymore that you know where they eat out after church. Again you assume much
I see all the broad brushing that indicts God's word and cheapens it.
The bible teaches that If I asks ANYTHING according to his will,I will recieve the thing I ask for.
The hagin haters,and others have called WOF "name it and claim it". What they do not realise is,they take a stand against the word that those WOFers stand on.
Too bad.
You are most likely right
I hold the Bible in high regard.
You do not know that,anymore that you know where they eat out after church. Again you assume much
I see all the broad brushing that indicts God's word and cheapens it.
The bible teaches that If I asks ANYTHING according to his will,I will recieve the thing I ask for.
The hagin haters,and others have called WOF "name it and claim it". What they do not realise is,they take a stand against the word that those WOFers stand on.
Too bad.
You are most likely right
You seem to have a problem with the phrase "word of faith". Do you believe it can only mean something pure? Gee-whiz, I could come up a false doctrine & put a purely biblical name to it..... but that doesn't change the doctrine at all. Remember Jehovah's witnesses? They are anything but that. The church of latter-day saints? neither a church nor saints involved. Just get off it, cuz nobody's buyin' it.
P
Well,to me it is a no brainer. We all fall short in those realms.
Originally Posted by Sophia
Faith isn't the "bad thing".
Self-focus is the bad thing.
Misrepresentation of the power, working, will, and sovereignty of God is the bad thing.
Seems self explainatory to me since I for one am not Abraham or Daniel.
Faith isn't the "bad thing".
Self-focus is the bad thing.
Misrepresentation of the power, working, will, and sovereignty of God is the bad thing.
Seems self explainatory to me since I for one am not Abraham or Daniel.
P
I am no expert on their doctrine,but MOST of it is BIBLE. so when you broad brush,you position yourself against the word.
Sorry but the "you WILL recieve" is in the bible and you guys are apparently oblivious.
I can spell it out easily. If it is in the word,I am never wrong when I agree with his word.
Simple.
What you guys do is line yourselves up against the WORD since most of their DOCTRINE is indeed biblical.
Sorry but the "you WILL recieve" is in the bible and you guys are apparently oblivious.
I can spell it out easily. If it is in the word,I am never wrong when I agree with his word.
Simple.
What you guys do is line yourselves up against the WORD since most of their DOCTRINE is indeed biblical.
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P
I found a statement of faith for WOF;
Beliefs - The Word of Faith Fellowship
pick it,and tell me where the boggeyman is.
Beliefs - The Word of Faith Fellowship
pick it,and tell me where the boggeyman is.
S
I was raised in a health n wealth oriented church. The phrase "declare it!" was constantly said. I never heard of Hagin or Kenyon back then, but it sounds like the same stuff that I came out of when I first started reading the Word for myself, and found that the "faith" that my minister was preaching was not in line with the Faith that saves or the Faith that moved Abraham to leave Ur.
The "faith" and "faith system" that they talked about was how to get God to do what you wanted,
not about how to get yourself to do what God wanted.
Sorry, but if you ask God for worldly things, He is not required to give you them.
He gives GOOD things when we ask for them. Not all things that WE think are good are truly for our best.
Sometimes, suffering is what is best for us. Sometimes, poverty is what's best for us.
If your focus is on health and wealth, and you are actually His Child... expect chastisement in the form of the opposite of your fleshly desires.
Those who are not His Children, they get what the world gives: temporary comfort at the cost of eternal reward.
The "faith" and "faith system" that they talked about was how to get God to do what you wanted,
not about how to get yourself to do what God wanted.
Sorry, but if you ask God for worldly things, He is not required to give you them.
He gives GOOD things when we ask for them. Not all things that WE think are good are truly for our best.
Sometimes, suffering is what is best for us. Sometimes, poverty is what's best for us.
If your focus is on health and wealth, and you are actually His Child... expect chastisement in the form of the opposite of your fleshly desires.
Those who are not His Children, they get what the world gives: temporary comfort at the cost of eternal reward.
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S
Tell me what is wrong with this:
God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall, humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.
As little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence.
God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall, humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.
As little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence.
The problem with you, Popeye, is that you don't have a clue how to rightly divide the Word of God.
That means knowing how to interpret, in terms of context, historical, within the passage, the chapter, the book, the covenant and the whole Bible.
Good hermeneutics means that you start with the "plain meaning" of the text. That means the "original" meaning that the author plainly intended, and that the original readers should have plainly understood.
Although the Bible is a book for all seasons and times, it speaks out of the past directly to our present situation, and it does so because it spoke to the readers first. Therefore, the first task of interpretation is to NOT to find out what the Bible says to us, but what it originally said to the readers. God's Word is not a new word, never before discovered, rather it must be the very same word that He originally spoke back then and there. And this is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture. (No mysteries or hidden revelations!)
These "perfect wealth and health" teachers fail to do adequate exegesis, which has to do with determining the meaning of a text in the original context.
For example, it is often argued by WoF that Isa. 53:4 in Matthew 8:17 and Isaiah 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 that healing is in the atonement the same way as forgiveness of sins.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." Isa. 53:4-5
Even the AoG in their position papers does not see healing in the same way as the atonement, simply because there are not the texts to support. While healing is "provided for" because of the "atonement", we still live in a fallen world, and the consequences of sin, including sickness and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the gospel writer sees it being fulfilled in Jesus' earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrews (elaben= he took; ebateasen= he removed)
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter, does not refer to healing at all, but is metaphorical, pure and simple! in context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even it if means their suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which slaves are to follow. Sin is seen as a "wound," in this metaphor, and we are restored to health from the sickness of our sins!
The Septuagint translates Isa. 53:5 as "He himself bore our sin" rather than "our sickness, " showing that besides this one passage from the Old Testament is disputed, despite the fact that it is a proof text by WoF.
Further, Matthew's clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, for sure - but as part of the Messiah's ministry, not as part of the atonement.
Thus, neither of the New Testament passages see Isaiah 53 as referring to physical healing as part of the atonement. Israel was diseased by her on-going sin, she was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa. 1:6-7), yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver.
Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace, was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." In the context of Isaiah, it refers to the healing of the wounds and disease of sin.
The Bible, therefore does NOT teach explicitly that healing is provided for in the atonement, despite the false teaching by the Wof movement.
I could go more deeply into the heresy of name it and claim it wealth, or more important, a Biblical theology of how God views wealth and the poor, in both the New and Old Testaments, if you want. Suffice it to say, that God is with the poor, chastises the rich for oppressing the poor, and Jesus came to proclaim the good news to the poor. A far cry from the green car which did not come, because it was not named and claimed enough in the eyes of these Word of Faith heretics, as Highwayman has described above.
** based on Gordon D. Fee's book "The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels" (he is a Pentecostal scholar of international repute!)
That means knowing how to interpret, in terms of context, historical, within the passage, the chapter, the book, the covenant and the whole Bible.
Good hermeneutics means that you start with the "plain meaning" of the text. That means the "original" meaning that the author plainly intended, and that the original readers should have plainly understood.
Although the Bible is a book for all seasons and times, it speaks out of the past directly to our present situation, and it does so because it spoke to the readers first. Therefore, the first task of interpretation is to NOT to find out what the Bible says to us, but what it originally said to the readers. God's Word is not a new word, never before discovered, rather it must be the very same word that He originally spoke back then and there. And this is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture. (No mysteries or hidden revelations!)
These "perfect wealth and health" teachers fail to do adequate exegesis, which has to do with determining the meaning of a text in the original context.
For example, it is often argued by WoF that Isa. 53:4 in Matthew 8:17 and Isaiah 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 that healing is in the atonement the same way as forgiveness of sins.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." Isa. 53:4-5
Even the AoG in their position papers does not see healing in the same way as the atonement, simply because there are not the texts to support. While healing is "provided for" because of the "atonement", we still live in a fallen world, and the consequences of sin, including sickness and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the gospel writer sees it being fulfilled in Jesus' earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrews (elaben= he took; ebateasen= he removed)
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter, does not refer to healing at all, but is metaphorical, pure and simple! in context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even it if means their suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which slaves are to follow. Sin is seen as a "wound," in this metaphor, and we are restored to health from the sickness of our sins!
The Septuagint translates Isa. 53:5 as "He himself bore our sin" rather than "our sickness, " showing that besides this one passage from the Old Testament is disputed, despite the fact that it is a proof text by WoF.
Further, Matthew's clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, for sure - but as part of the Messiah's ministry, not as part of the atonement.
Thus, neither of the New Testament passages see Isaiah 53 as referring to physical healing as part of the atonement. Israel was diseased by her on-going sin, she was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa. 1:6-7), yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver.
Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace, was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." In the context of Isaiah, it refers to the healing of the wounds and disease of sin.
The Bible, therefore does NOT teach explicitly that healing is provided for in the atonement, despite the false teaching by the Wof movement.
I could go more deeply into the heresy of name it and claim it wealth, or more important, a Biblical theology of how God views wealth and the poor, in both the New and Old Testaments, if you want. Suffice it to say, that God is with the poor, chastises the rich for oppressing the poor, and Jesus came to proclaim the good news to the poor. A far cry from the green car which did not come, because it was not named and claimed enough in the eyes of these Word of Faith heretics, as Highwayman has described above.
** based on Gordon D. Fee's book "The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels" (he is a Pentecostal scholar of international repute!)
S
Grace is not "God's divine influence upon the heart and it's reflection in the life."
Where did they get that from?
Grace is God's unmerited favor upon elect sinners. It is the trait of God that prompts the gifts of Faith, Salvation through His Son, and the Spirit, and all the works, gifts, and fruit that the Spirit brings.
Faith is not a mystical force for us to use to alter reality.
Faith is God's gift to the elect, enabling us to believe God.
Where did they get that from?
Grace is God's unmerited favor upon elect sinners. It is the trait of God that prompts the gifts of Faith, Salvation through His Son, and the Spirit, and all the works, gifts, and fruit that the Spirit brings.
Faith is not a mystical force for us to use to alter reality.
Faith is God's gift to the elect, enabling us to believe God.
P
Could be. There are no perfect people or ministries. Yourself included. We all have certain things wrong.
You begin your magnificent broad brush defense with a personal attack.
Pick up a bible and debate specifics.
I have several bibles and can read enough to know the things wrong with WOF. Many things you say are true. Just as many are lies.
Ok here is your deep,correct ,theological statement in a nutshell
Poor=good
Rich= bad
Got it
And you accuse me of doctrinal defectiveness?
You begin your magnificent broad brush defense with a personal attack.
Pick up a bible and debate specifics.
I have several bibles and can read enough to know the things wrong with WOF. Many things you say are true. Just as many are lies.
Ok here is your deep,correct ,theological statement in a nutshell
Poor=good
Rich= bad
Got it
And you accuse me of doctrinal defectiveness?
R
well I think we need to look at the true meaning of faith. and how to apply that to our Daily walk with Christ. You cant beleive without faith, and you cant have faith without belief. Those two seperate words merge and bonds and relate to each other and for each other. Its like that question, what is better: believing in faith, or having faith to believe?
Its not a denominational thing, and faith has gone from Churches and people in general, because of all the twisted truth by the devil, and in many case he has blinded us with something that has taken us away from the truth. I heard many people say to me, God don't exist untill I see him, as Christian, we have faith that he is there even though we cant see him in the flesh but we can see his glory and the effects. In the bible, we See Jesus, If you look in the bible, and in every book you will see Jesus, he is mentioned in every book of the Bible. yet just because certain words are not mentioned by a believer, It don't mean that it's not there. Just says something different. Lik the Trinity for one thing, yes I know, a post is talking about the T-word again, but I have faith that Jesus is the son of God, God is teh father, and the holy spirit are all seperate in the God head, but they are all one, It says in 1 John 5: 7, there are 3 thats testifies., and in the KJV it says there are 3 that bears witness in heaven, the father, the son and the holy ghost. how ever which translation you read, it states there are 3.
Going back to faith. Its all down to your own personal journey with Christ. don't care what other people believe or have faith in. Just believe and have faith in God, because when he says something it happens, so you can surely beleive and have faith in God.
The Bible teaches that the proof of faith (what faith is based on) is evidence. Faith is based upon strong, clear, logical, true, historical evidence. Faith is not guesswork. Faith is not a blind leap in the dark. Faith is not grounded in subjective feelings. God provides the objective, rational evidence for belief; man provides the belief based on that evidence. The Bible does not teach that God gives man his faith. John wrote: "but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ..." (John 20:31). Paul wrote: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Unless our faith is based upon sound evidence from God's word, we do not have the right kind of faith.
The Bible teaches that the fruit of faith (what faith produces) is active obedience to God's word. The Bible does not teach that man is saved by faith only. Faith is not just a mental thought; it is a mental thought that leads a person to act, to work, to obey. The outward acts of faith can be seen (Matthew 9:2). Faith takes steps in obedience (Romans 4:12). Unless our faith produces active obedience to God's word, we do not have the right kind of faith
Its not a denominational thing, and faith has gone from Churches and people in general, because of all the twisted truth by the devil, and in many case he has blinded us with something that has taken us away from the truth. I heard many people say to me, God don't exist untill I see him, as Christian, we have faith that he is there even though we cant see him in the flesh but we can see his glory and the effects. In the bible, we See Jesus, If you look in the bible, and in every book you will see Jesus, he is mentioned in every book of the Bible. yet just because certain words are not mentioned by a believer, It don't mean that it's not there. Just says something different. Lik the Trinity for one thing, yes I know, a post is talking about the T-word again, but I have faith that Jesus is the son of God, God is teh father, and the holy spirit are all seperate in the God head, but they are all one, It says in 1 John 5: 7, there are 3 thats testifies., and in the KJV it says there are 3 that bears witness in heaven, the father, the son and the holy ghost. how ever which translation you read, it states there are 3.
Going back to faith. Its all down to your own personal journey with Christ. don't care what other people believe or have faith in. Just believe and have faith in God, because when he says something it happens, so you can surely beleive and have faith in God.
The Bible teaches that the proof of faith (what faith is based on) is evidence. Faith is based upon strong, clear, logical, true, historical evidence. Faith is not guesswork. Faith is not a blind leap in the dark. Faith is not grounded in subjective feelings. God provides the objective, rational evidence for belief; man provides the belief based on that evidence. The Bible does not teach that God gives man his faith. John wrote: "but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ..." (John 20:31). Paul wrote: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Unless our faith is based upon sound evidence from God's word, we do not have the right kind of faith.
The Bible teaches that the fruit of faith (what faith produces) is active obedience to God's word. The Bible does not teach that man is saved by faith only. Faith is not just a mental thought; it is a mental thought that leads a person to act, to work, to obey. The outward acts of faith can be seen (Matthew 9:2). Faith takes steps in obedience (Romans 4:12). Unless our faith produces active obedience to God's word, we do not have the right kind of faith