Works

[KennethC]

I remember Pastor Mike saying that people ask him to heal and his record of healing is not very good because God hasn't healed people through him.

When you empty the hospitals and nursing homes, let me know but until then, faith without works is dead.

This is the thing that upsets me about naysayers, because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not ministered out because a person demands it to be done.

They are done based on faith and the serving of God's will, if God has something for that person to learn by going through their experience He will let them continue. Also He does this also so that the person can be a testimony and a light to others going through similar experiences.

Those who claim the healing is done all the time or can be done on demand know absolutely nothing about the gifts and the way in which they are to be done !!!

 

[3Scoreand10]

Look I am sorry if I sound harsh but I know exactly what the Holy Spirit said to me about being in the lost state I was in.

He did not ever say I would still be saved and receive eternal life if I remained in that stance !!!

The reason why the Lord chastises us is so that we don't get caught up in sin again and be condemned with the rest of the world. Sin is a very dangerous issue that now day doctrines try to down play !!!

The other thing you are taught to do is play the "misplaced blame game" !!!

Every time this subject gets brought up I here the same tactic's used, and that is its Jesus or God's fault:

Jesus isn't strong enough.................

Jesus failed....................

Jesus took back His free gift.............

These are all straw-man arguments that take the focus off of self and places the blame on the Lord, and that is very wrong to do my brother !!!

We need to stop blaming others for the wrongs we have done, that is what those who are weak do !!!

The abusive husband blames the wife for him abusing her..........

The pedophile blames the kids or his past on why he abused the kids.........

The thief blames the system for why they stole..............

The weak believer who does not believe in falling away or departing from the faith blames the Lord our God............

This is sickening and sad, why can't you just admit and acknowledge yourself is to blame for where you ended up ???


The bible speaks of there being a number of people that will be gnashing and wailing at judgment because they thought they were saved but found out they weren't.

You know why it says they weren't saved and did not receive eternal life ???

It does not say because they didn't believe in Jesus, it says because they continued to live deliberate sinful lives or did not help out others in need !!!

Believing in Jesus is more then just believing He existed, came in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins, and rose on the third day. The Word of God shows there is much more to believing in Him then that !!!

Luke 6:46-49 Jesus shows two groups, true believers and false believers, and He shows here what separates the two is that the true believers "DO" what He said and the false one's do not !!!

Ken, I never blame God nor do I believe God is weak.
EVERY time I fail God it is my fault.
I am a true believer and true believers try to do as he says, never blame God for their failures, nor do they live a deliberate sinfull life, nor do they believe that He will cast us aside because of those failures.
God is all powerful and does not need any help from me ( works, living a sinless life) to keep me saved.
You are correct that those false believers will stand before Him believing they are saved and He will say "I never knew you"
False believers INCLUDES those who believer they are saved because of their works, living without sin, baptism, keeping his commandments,church membership etc. False believers will stand before God and say "look what I did for you"

When I stand before God, I will nothave to say a single word because He will see the blood of His Son that covers this wretched, sinfull man.

 

[KennethC]

Ken, I never blame God nor do I believe God is weak.
EVERY time I fail God it is my fault.
I am a true believer and true believers try to do as he says, never blame God for their failures, nor do they live a deliberate sinfull life, nor do they believe that He will cast us aside because of those failures.
God is all powerful and does not need any help from me ( works, living a sinless life) to keep me saved.
You are correct that those false believers will stand before Him believing they are saved and He will say "I never knew you"
False believers INCLUDES those who believer they are saved because of their works, living without sin, baptism, keeping his commandments,church membership etc. False believers will stand before God and say "look what I did for you"

When I stand before God, I will nothave to say a single word because He will see the blood of His Son that covers this wretched, sinfull man.

See the bold above, that is not what you said previously.

This is what you said previously:

"I never said nor do I believe that disobedience does not matter. That statement from you is exactly what you condem others of doing when they confront your false teaching
Disobedience leads to broken fellowship with God. It leads to lost blessings. It leads to conviction and chastisement.
BUT it does not lead to God casting you out. ( Taking back His FREE GIFT of salvation/Eternal life)
Here is where you and I disagree.
I place my hope for eternal life solely in the hands of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His promise to me.
You believe that Jesus is not strong enough, that you must do something (WORKS) or He will renig on that promise, take back His GIFT and cast you out.
I know that I have eternal life because of my faith in what my Lord and Savior promised.
I work very hard at being obedient to His every command because I love Him and want to please Him not because I believe He will cast me out if I fail. When I fail I ask forgiveness and continue on.
Ken you have a good understanding of many Bible truths. Many thing you post I agree with.
I hope you come to the truth about salvation and works before you stand before before God."



That is the same as blaming God as you make a statement that Jesus is not strong enough for when a person walks away from the faith !!!

You just put the blame on Jesus for the person's own choice, it has nothing to do with Jesus being strong enough !!!

The Lord gave us all the tools we need to follow Him, but those tools can be rejected !!!

You also continue to think I believe in a works to maintain salvation, which shows you are not reading what I said or are blinded by bias that you can not see what is truly being said.

Salvation is solely on faith in Jesus, but that faith is an active faith not and inactive one !!!

Again Jesus clearly shows what separates true believers from false one's is the true believers "DO" what He said, and the false believers do not !!!

I don't know how much more clearly Jesus can get on this then Luke 6:46-49 !!!

 

[Chuckt]

There are multiple meanings for words in greek...as showed below....and yes..being sick is a weakness...one of the usages is for this weakness...but sickness violates the work of Christ....it is not from God...God can make good things come from the suckness but He is never the author of it..and it is always His will to heal as shown by Jesus.

ασθενειας, ἡ (ασθενης) (from Herodotus down), “want of strength, weakness, infirmity”;

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

Was Jesus crucified because He has a sickness?..same word being used here.

2 Corinthians 13:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.

Here the writer of Hebrews is saying the priest was doing his work in weakness...we know that priests could not do any work in the temple if they had sickness ..

Hebrews 5:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;
[SUP]2 [/SUP] he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness;

Here is the word being used again only this time called "weak".

Hebrews 7:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Here the word is used of the old hero's of faith that were in weakness but became strong..

Hebrews 11:34 (NASB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

Both Hebrews 5:2 and Hebrews 7:28 in the KJV translate it "infirmities".
Context isn't determined by different passages. Context comes from the passage that Paul is talking about.

The context words are "thorn" and "flesh" and "infirmities" which indicates sickness. Thorns hurt. Flesh is an object. A word picture would be a thorn sticking into the flesh which would indicate injury. That is more of a context than looking outside of the direct passage. The rule of my church is to say what scripture says and not to impose a meaning on scripture.

 

[Chuckt]

This is the thing that upsets me about naysayers, because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not ministered out because a person demands it to be done.

They are done based on faith and the serving of God's will, if God has something for that person to learn by going through their experience He will let them continue. Also He does this also so that the person can be a testimony and a light to others going through similar experiences.

Those who claim the healing is done all the time or can be done on demand know absolutely nothing about the gifts and the way in which they are to be done !!!

The only time God has gone my way is when I go His way. If I am doing evangelism then I can get help but that is basically the only time that God has ever helped me. It is also a very dangerous time because I get opposition and people operating out of the flesh to oppose me of there are incidents that come against me so if you want to live in the supernatural then you are also going to have bad supernatural coincidences happen against you as well which doesn't mean we have a demon but we're in a spiritual war.

The second reason I discount a lot of these claims is that God hasn't repealed the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is set in motion. It is a law. There is really no appeal in this life because death will be one per person. There is no escaping this fact because we shall all die in Adam because you have to die or you couldn't be born again and you won't get the new body or upgrade without the law of sin and death. Healing guaranteed would make us escape death and it isn't happening.

 

[3Scoreand10]

See the bold above, that is not what you said previously.

This is what you said previously:

"I never said nor do I believe that disobedience does not matter. That statement from you is exactly what you condem others of doing when they confront your false teaching
Disobedience leads to broken fellowship with God. It leads to lost blessings. It leads to conviction and chastisement.
BUT it does not lead to God casting you out. ( Taking back His FREE GIFT of salvation/Eternal life)
Here is where you and I disagree.
I place my hope for eternal life solely in the hands of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His promise to me.
You believe that Jesus is not strong enough, that you must do something (WORKS) or He will renig on that promise, take back His GIFT and cast you out.
I know that I have eternal life because of my faith in what my Lord and Savior promised.
I work very hard at being obedient to His every command because I love Him and want to please Him not because I believe He will cast me out if I fail. When I fail I ask forgiveness and continue on.
Ken you have a good understanding of many Bible truths. Many thing you post I agree with.
I hope you come to the truth about salvation and works before you stand before before God."



That is the same as blaming God as you make a statement that Jesus is not strong enough for when a person walks away from the faith !!!

You just put the blame on Jesus for the person's own choice, it has nothing to do with Jesus being strong enough !!!

The Lord gave us all the tools we need to follow Him, but those tools can be rejected !!!

You also continue to think I believe in a works to maintain salvation, which shows you are not reading what I said or are blinded by bias that you can not see what is truly being said.

Salvation is solely on faith in Jesus, but that faith is an active faith not and inactive one !!!

Again Jesus clearly shows what separates true believers from false one's is the true believers "DO" what He said, and the false believers do not !!!

I don't know how much more clearly Jesus can get on this then Luke 6:46-49 !!!

Ken, read carefully what I said.
I do not beleive God is not strong enough, I said that is what you and other are saying when you teach that a person must do this or that to be saved or to remain saved.
Any time you say a person can loose their salvation, or choose to walk away from God YOU ARE SAYING GOD IS WEAK by your false belief and teaching.
You are saying YOU can override the power of God. That God is not strong enough to keep you if YOU choose to walk away.

Wake up Ken. GOD DOES NOT NEED YOUR HELP. It never has been and never will be what you do it is what Jesus did.

 

[Grace777x70]

When Paul was constantly getting beaten and stoned and persecutions all the time because of his preaching of Christ...are these not the flesh getting hurt?...the word "buffet" means to beat with the fists in verse 7...Paul was constantly getting beat caused by a messenger of satan to stir up people to persecute him.

The reality is there are different meanings for the same word "infirmities" as has been shown...your church taught you man's interpretation on 2 Cor 12 because they don't believe that healing is in Christ's finished work...and that is ok..as I said..everyone can believe whatever they want....it's ok...



2 Corinthians 12:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Both Hebrews 5:2 and Hebrews 7:28 in the KJV translate it "infirmities".
Context isn't determined by different passages. Context comes from the passage that Paul is talking about.

The context words are "thorn" and "flesh" and "infirmities" which indicates sickness. Thorns hurt. Flesh is an object. A word picture would be a thorn sticking into the flesh which would indicate injury. That is more of a context than looking outside of the direct passage. The rule of my church is to say what scripture says and not to impose a meaning on scripture.

 

[coby]

Ken, read carefully what I said.
I do not beleive God is not strong enough, I said that is what you and other are saying when you teach that a person must do this or that to be saved or to remain saved.
Any time you say a person can loose their salvation, or choose to walk away from God YOU ARE SAYING GOD IS WEAK by your false belief and teaching.
You are saying YOU can override the power of God. That God is not strong enough to keep you if YOU choose to walk away.

Wake up Ken. GOD DOES NOT NEED YOUR HELP. It never has been and never will be what you do it is what Jesus did.

Demas left Paul because he loved the world.
Paul watched out not to be rejected after having preached to others.

12*Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;*13*for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for*His*good pleasure.

14*Do all things without complaining and disputing,*15*that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,*16*holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

 

[KennethC]

Ken, read carefully what I said.
I do not beleive God is not strong enough, I said that is what you and other are saying when you teach that a person must do this or that to be saved or to remain saved.
Any time you say a person can loose their salvation, or choose to walk away from God YOU ARE SAYING GOD IS WEAK by your false belief and teaching.
You are saying YOU can override the power of God. That God is not strong enough to keep you if YOU choose to walk away.

Wake up Ken. GOD DOES NOT NEED YOUR HELP. It never has been and never will be what you do it is what Jesus did.

I did read and those are your words, not mine !!!

I nowhere said that Jesus is not strong enough, you did as you assume things on others.

People are not forced to believe and follow Jesus, we are given the free choice to choose who to serve, and the Word of God says "Many will fall away from the faith."

So still if you want reverse it on me then you are assuming which is also wrong to do, assuming things on others will make the one doing the assuming guilty of sin.

Why ??? Because you are bearing false witness on others without proof !!!

Why do you choose to reject the multiple verses from the Word of God that says people will walk away and depart from the faith ???

Jesus states this for the first time in Matthew 24:10-13 and Paul mentions it first in Acts 20:28-31, and from here on through the epistles Paul mentions this falling at least 5 more times. James, Peter, and John speak on this as well !!!

You may not like it but it is taught in the Word of God, therefore it is Truth !!!

 

[Chuckt]

When Paul was constantly getting beaten and stoned and persecutions all the time because of his preaching of Christ...are these not the flesh getting hurt?...the word "buffet" means to beat with the fists in verse 7...Paul was constantly getting beat caused by a messenger of satan to stir up people to persecute him.

The reality is there are different meanings for the same word "infirmities" as has been shown...your church taught you man's interpretation on 2 Cor 12 because they don't believe that healing is in Christ's finished work...and that is ok..as I said..everyone can believe whatever they want....it's ok...



2 Corinthians 12:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Doesn't fit the context. The beatings weren't all the time so to ask the Lord to remove something you don't have all the time doesn't fit the context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did read and those are your words, not mine !!!

I nowhere said that Jesus is not strong enough, you did as you assume things on others.

Your like your brother PeterJens.

You scream one thing (Jesus is strong enough) which is great

then you claim Jesus is not strong enough to keep someone from falling away to loss of salvation..

in other words.. You speak one thing, but do not believe it, in reality, You teach jesus is not strong enough, if he was, you would believe in eternal security.. and not this wishy washy, works based gospel which has no hope.

 

[Grace777x70]

Just before 2 cor 12:1 comes the end of 2 cor 11...now this looks like a lot was happening to Paul....this is context..the letter was not in chapters and verses..it all goes together...

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
[SUP]26 [/SUP] In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Doesn't fit the context. The beatings weren't all the time so to ask the Lord to remove something you don't have all the time doesn't fit the context.

 

[3Scoreand10]

Your like your brother PeterJens.

You scream one thing (Jesus is strong enough) which is great

then you claim Jesus is not strong enough to keep someone from falling away to loss of salvation..

in other words.. You speak one thing, but do not believe it, in reality, You teach jesus is not strong enough, if he was, you would believe in eternal security.. and not this wishy washy, works based gospel which has no hope.

It is very sad that Ken and many others can not see their just how deceived thay are.
I have come to the conclusion that many good people have a false assurance of eternal life.
Their hope is in their baptism, good deeds, keeping the commands, etc.
They just can not put their total and complete faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross.
They just have to add self to God's perfect plan of redemption.

 

[KennethC]

It is very sad that Ken and many others can not see their just how deceived thay are.
I have come to the conclusion that many good people have a false assurance of eternal life.
Their hope is in their baptism, good deeds, keeping the commands, etc.
They just can not put their total and complete faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross.
They just have to add self to God's perfect plan of redemption.

There you go again passing false witness against us !!!

Are you actually open to hear what another is saying, or are you going to continue reading with the bias goggles on ???

Do you even understand the difference between "proof of salvation" and "works to earn salvation" ???

Because you keep falsely placing the 2nd on us when we are preaching the first !!!

Our faith is completely in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which is why we defend doing as He taught and commanded !!!

Is Jesus your Lord and Savior, or just your Savior ???

Because if He were your Lord why do you argue against those who are speaking of doing exactly as Jesus commanded we would do out of love for Him ???

Jesus said:

"If you love me you will keep My commandments" (Believers)

"Those who don't love me don't keep My commandments" (Unbelievers/Disobedient)

Which group do you belong to ???

 

[coby]

This is the thing that upsets me about naysayers, because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not ministered out because a person demands it to be done.

They are done based on faith and the serving of God's will, if God has something for that person to learn by going through their experience He will let them continue. Also He does this also so that the person can be a testimony and a light to others going through similar experiences.

Those who claim the healing is done all the time or can be done on demand know absolutely nothing about the gifts and the way in which they are to be done !!!

He gave the authority to heal the sick in His Name to the church.
Muslims and atheists are getting healed and saved on the street while there are christians who God wants to heal who stay sick because they believe it is God's will and don't command the devil and the disease to leave in His Name like the disciples did, but say: God if it is Your will do You want to heal me?
My people perish because of lack of knowledge.
I had 2 collegues, one christian, one atheist. They both had prostate cancer. The atheist wanted nothing to do with God.
I asked him: May I please pray for you to be healed? I'll just do it at home. He said: That's so sweet of you. Thanks. He got healed. He still lives.
The other one I prayed for him for a year, hours a day, I fasted for him. Then I asked if we could pray for him. He got furious. Who do you think you are? God doesn't always want to heal. He wanted no prayer. Later he died. Sad. It was a sweet man. Well he's in heaven.

 

[3Scoreand10]

There you go again passing false witness against us !!!

Are you actually open to hear what another is saying, or are you going to continue reading with the bias goggles on ???

Do you even understand the difference between "proof of salvation" and "works to earn salvation" ???




Because you keep falsely placing the 2nd on us when we are preaching the first !!!

Our faith is completely in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which is why we defend doing as He taught and commanded !!!

Is Jesus your Lord and Savior, or just your Savior ???

Because if He were your Lord why do you argue against those who are speaking of doing exactly as Jesus commanded we would do out of love for Him ???

Jesus said:

"If you love me you will keep My commandments" (Believers)

"Those who don't love me don't keep My commandments" (Unbelievers/Disobedient)

Which group do you belong to ???

Ok Ken, I agree that Good works is proof of salvation.
Every one who has eternal will do good works, some more than others.

But answer these questions.
Do you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation?
Do you believe that a person can choose to walk away from the gift eternal life?
Do you believe eternal means eternal or is it conditional?
Do you believe a Holy and Just God would take back the gift of eternal life once he has given it?

I will answer these questions with one word--------NO

What say you Ken?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There you go again passing false witness against us !!!

Are you actually open to hear what another is saying, or are you going to continue reading with the bias goggles on ???

Do you even understand the difference between "proof of salvation" and "works to earn salvation" ???

yeah we do. Sadly you do not

Proof of salvation means one has done work, and this work proves he is saved, (HE HAS ETERNAL LIFE, HE HAS passed from death to life, will never perish,,) .

Works to earn salvation, means one claims he is saved, but teaches that salvation can be lost (it is not secure)

You teach the second soo.....

 

[3Keys2Kingdom]

I'm glad I was wrong. How many times do you see or hear anyone say that?

Not Many! reading can sometimes be harder for interpretation by the other guy. God bless!

 

[coby]

Ok Ken, I agree that Good works is proof of salvation.
Every one who has eternal will do good works, some more than others.

But answer these questions.
Do you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation?
Do you believe that a person can choose to walk away from the gift eternal life?
Do you believe eternal means eternal or is it conditional?
Do you believe a Holy and Just God would take back the gift of eternal life once he has given it?

I will answer these questions with one word--------NO

What say you Ken?

False teachers turning God's grace into lewdness, they died twice:

These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c]*by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;13*raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

14*Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,*15*to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Apostates Predicted

16*These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.*17*But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:*18*how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.*19*These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Maintain Your Life with God

20*But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,*21*keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22*And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d]*23*but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e]hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

 

[KennethC]

He gave the authority to heal the sick in His Name to the church.
Muslims and atheists are getting healed and saved on the street while there are christians who God wants to heal who stay sick because they believe it is God's will and don't command the devil and the disease to leave in His Name like the disciples did, but say: God if it is Your will do You want to heal me?
My people perish because of lack of knowledge.
I had 2 collegues, one christian, one atheist. They both had prostate cancer. The atheist wanted nothing to do with God.
I asked him: May I please pray for you to be healed? I'll just do it at home. He said: That's so sweet of you. Thanks. He got healed. He still lives.
The other one I prayed for him for a year, hours a day, I fasted for him. Then I asked if we could pray for him. He got furious. Who do you think you are? God doesn't always want to heal. He wanted no prayer. Later he died. Sad. It was a sweet man. Well he's in heaven.

I never said that authority to heal in His name wasn't given to the Church.

What I said is that the Word of God shows clearly how these gifts are to be done, we can not and are not to go around and do them in the mannerism contradictory to what God said.

If it is done contradictory to how the Word of God says then there will be no respect for such at judgment !!!

Remember those of Matthew 7:21-23 they did these gifts from the Holy Spirit to, but did they get eternal life ???

No they didn't because they continued to live a lifestyle contradictory to the Way of God !!!

The believer that you mentioned rejected the healing, that does not mean he couldn't have been healed.

As for the unbeliever you mentioned God was trying to work on him through the healing to bring him to God !!!

If that unbeliever continues to stay an unbeliever, remember what Jesus said to the man He healed at the well........

"Go and sin no more, least a worse thing come to you."