Works

KennethC · Feb 6, 2016

Utah said:

I don't know about him but this whole works based salvation thing needs to be clarified, because most to all of the time when one uses these accusation they are really saying works to earn salvation !!!

Nobody is promoting such a doctrine that I know of !!!

However nowhere does the bible say or show as believers we are not required to do anything, as a matter of fact it gives multiple warnings for those who are lazy or disobedient servants !!! (Matthew 25 and Luke 12)

Jesus even said in Luke 12:48 "to much has been given, much will be required."

planitsoon · Feb 7, 2016

That's great! Have you ever seen a miracle happening after praying for the sick? If yes, have you tried to raise a dead person yet? If not, why not as it says that believers will lay hands on the sick, not just pastors or leaders in ministry (today ministry is almost seen as a church career while the root word is serving - diakonos)

Is cancer harder for God to heal than a headache? Or does cancer maybe intimidate us more than a headache and our fear blocks our faith just like with the disciples that most likely were intimidated by the sight of seeing the boy being thrown in the water and fire. Must have been pretty full on. But they had seen by that time already many miracles and yet, that time they could not do it and Jesus rebuked them for having a lack of faith. He was indeed pretty disappointed there and told them

I still don't know what churches have to do with all of this. It is about believers doing the works, and many believers fellowship in small unknown churches as well, even house churches. Yes there are people in leadership that are building their own little kingdoms but has that to do with you or me? But yes, I hear you. I am the same about churchianity.

Believers WILL lay hands on the sick and they WILL recover. And as you know these are just the elementary things and we should go beyond them, the writer of Hebrews 6 says.

Some people say that they believe in healing but when they are then asked how often they have laid hands on the sick you hear never as they don't practice it and well, what does scripture say... that faith is dead in that area.

We all can grow and step out in many areas of faith but somebody who believes something should practice it. Faith without works is dead and the Greek word for knowledge is epignosos meaning literally "experimental knowledge".

If we are not a doer we are deceiving ourseeves the Bible says.

planitsoon · Feb 7, 2016

It's okay that you have trouble with healing. My parents do. We all grow in our faith and authority and in different areas. One might struggle with seeing healing but have great results with providence like for example George Mueller who took care of 2000 orphans without making a penny ( no support or job) and prayed everything in and often these orphans were sitting behind their plates with no food on the table and God provided sending someone who had been preparing something before

Our God is good!

Maybe you want to share how God rewarded your faith for something else, for example a need and what happened and how you applied faith to see it manifested in your life.

Faith is oh so practical. Maybe how you set somebody free from a demon or anything else. In the end, all of this is supernatural and the principle is always the same.

Thanking Him that you have received what you prayed for according to Mark 11:24 and not doubt but hang on in the mean time, until it manifests in the natural

Some unbelievers would argue that is like magic, lol. As if God would listen to us and our faith would have anything to do with what God does in this world. Well, it kinda is......for people who don't have faith and let their doubts and reasoning rule over the Word of God. BUT....... it is much better, I really hope you know that from experience

God, with all respect "is the biggest KID on the block" as Curry Blake ones said and that's what Elijah tried to show to the Baal worshippers and if you go to Africa or other nations people still that kind of confirmation

So feel free to share some of your amazing experiments with us of our Supernatural Father in heaven. God bless you.

RobbyEarl · Feb 7, 2016

New here but like what you say, Robby

planitsoon · Feb 7, 2016

Yes, it sounds like it but at least they have the guts to step out in faith and act on the Word of God. You won't grow your faith with sitting on your blessed assurance.

RobbyEarl · Feb 7, 2016

Who worked t get saved? or was it a free gift?

3Keys2Kingdom · Feb 7, 2016

Utah said:

Salvation is a FREE gift! Not by any works of righteousness. To take that gift and use it in a manor well pleasing to God, you will obey Him and what His word instructs to walk well pleasing to Him and model your life after the word. That is where the works come in. Not works of earning salvation but the works of Him who sent us. Obeying Him doing what He commands as principles of a Spirit lead life in our walk and actions of life. Salvation is indeed a free gift and you are kept by the power of GOD because of HIS sovereignty. From our side in our walk of faith we press on and in with obedience to Him in perseverance and endurance. From His side He keeps us! People with the free gift of salvation are going to demonstrate
the fruit of that salvation. The fruit of their doings, or the works in their life, are going to demonstrate to the world the greatest gift ever offered!

3Keys2Kingdom · Feb 7, 2016

RobbyEarl said:

The Bible teaches Salvation is a free gift that no man can earn. The discussion has been a little misunderstood. Were not discussing Salvation. Were discussing the commands to "go and do" that the Bible gives.

KennethC · Feb 7, 2016

planitsoon said:

I think you need to read and study more if you think all believers will heal, because the Word of God says no such thing.

There is many different gifts from the Holy Spirit and not all believers are given the same gifts !!!

Apostle Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians that the gifts are given by the Holy Spirit only when and where the Holy Spirit deems it to be used to serve God's will, and not all will receive the same gifts !!!

The scriptures do not say faith is dead in that area if the person does not have the gift of healing, and even those who have the gift do not go around willy-nilly healing everybody they come across, and it clearly does say not to do it openly or make a show out of it !!!

Believing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not mean we will be given that gift !!!

Did you know "being a preacher" or "being a teacher" is a gift as well, are you telling me that all believers should be one of those two ??? I can tell that James 3:1 expressly says no !!!

Utah · Feb 7, 2016

3Keys2Kingdom said:

Salvation is a FREE gift! Not by any works of righteousness. To take that gift and use it in a manor well pleasing to God, you will obey Him and what His word instructs to walk well pleasing to Him and model your life after the word. That is where the works come in. Not works of earning salvation but the works of Him who sent us. Obeying Him doing what He commands as principles of a Spirit lead life in our walk and actions of life. Salvation is indeed a free gift and you are kept by the power of GOD because of HIS sovereignty. From our side in our walk of faith we press on and in with obedience to Him in perseverance and endurance. From His side He keeps us! People with the free gift of salvation are going to demonstrate
the fruit of that salvation. The fruit of their doings, or the works in their life, are going to demonstrate to the world the greatest gift ever offered!

I'm glad I was wrong. How many times do you see or hear anyone say that?

Utah · Feb 7, 2016

KennethC said:

In post #4, our brother said the following, "keeping your free gift," and I thought he was promoting works salvation. However he has since clarified himself. What do you do to keep your free gift, Ken?

Grace777x70 · Feb 7, 2016

The Holy Spirit is the One who moves through "believers" as He manifests the kingdom of God and the finished works of our Lord Jesus. Because a the Holy Spirit uses a person one time in a certain manifestation of Him...He could use anyone that is open to Him in any area.

These manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not offices like a "teacher, pastor, apostle, prophet, or evangelist"

The Holy Spirit will work through us as we yield to Him and are open to have Him work through us. He will use the manifestation of Himself in what ever is needed at the moment...see verse 7

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Any believer can lay hands on people in the name of Jesus and speak the finished work of Christ into people's lives in the area of healing. I believe people need to have that unction by the spirit unless sent out specifically as an evangelists does seem in scripture to have "healings" regularly displayed when they preach the gospel..

The operative words in the below scripture is "them that believe"

Mark 16:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

coby · Feb 7, 2016

KennethC said:

There's a gift of teaching, but everyone can teach their kid or theigh neighbour that God loves them. There's the gift of tongues but everyone can speak in a personal prayer tongue.
I hear people say this, but I wonder if they ever tried to just lay hands on themselves or their kid that is sick. When my kid fell from a bike for instance and cried I'm not gonna think: do I have one of the gifts? I have the Holy Spirit in me and I simply rebuke the pain. Or when I had RSI. I just proclaimed healing texts for a year until I believed it. By Your stripes I am healed. It's so handy when you just get saved and know nothing and someone tells you you can heal the sick in Jesus' Name and not hindered by any doctrin you simply believe it and do it and see it works. It was funny. Some big teachers from the USA went to Africa to teach them about Godly healing and they said: Wow you know so much! We don't know all that. Lol they were simply healing the sick already. Surely you must see very great miracles if you know so much about it! They said: No we only teach about it.

Grace777x70 · Feb 7, 2016

I want to test your "prophet" skills ..who's winning the big game today brother?..

Utah said:

seed_time_harvest · Feb 7, 2016

3Keys2Kingdom said:

Faith pleases GOD and as long as we are In these bodies that have not yet been glorified we should renew our minds to what happened on the inside.

Grace through faith and then physical obedience.

3Scoreand10 · Feb 7, 2016

KennethC said:

You say that you do not teach works for salvation But you do teach that one can choose to walk away from God, thus giving back their salvation, or can lose their salvation because they do not work for God.
You place the assurance of eternal life in your own hands.
Either it is entirely in Jesus or it is not. And if not, that is works based salvation where you want to admit it or not.

planitsoon · Feb 7, 2016

Study more into healing? ;-) There is call to go out and proclaim the gospel both in Luke 10 and Matthew 28 including healing the sick, as these are all things that should be taught as Jesus told them, Teach them everything, and, the Hebrew 6 writer says that healing is just part of the very basics of the faith and yes, then we have a gift of healing and the gift of an evangelist.

The reason why people are called to go to an elder if they are sick is because elders are suppossed to be matured enough in the faith and be able to get the sick healed according to their faith level. But in the end we all should mature over time. It does no where mentiones that they have a special gift, instead it say, and the prayer of a righteous man availes much. He should not be tossed around like a wave on the sea like the disciples in Matthew 17:20 and got rebuked by Jesus for a lack of faith at that moment.

We have the sign of tongues (pentacost) and then also the gift of tongues. "believers will lay hands on the sick it says every clearly. It does not mentiones that these are believers with a special gift of healing. Everybody who knew the authority in His Name in the New Testament healed the sick, the 12, the 70 and even a guy who didn't follow the disciples and stepped out on his own? But it is easy though, to say if someone needs healing, sorry, the guy with the special gif is just on holidays, come back in four weeks time!

Or, how do get saved, sorry!... our evangelist is on holidays. Come back later.

Jesus healed everybody He got a hold of. All, it says every single time. Never ever did He leave anyone sick and He as lead by compassion "as faith worketh through love". Yes, ones He also had to pray twice to se a full manifestation and praise God for that example.

The Word also says that we prophecy according to our faith. Everything we do should be by faith and it doesn't matter how much you have been given. The good thing is that our faith can grow if we bring it into practice!

Grace777x70 · Feb 7, 2016

Amen!

There is a documented preaching of the gospel where healing was manifested in one that "believed" what he heard about Christ and His salvation for him.

Acts 14:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and there they continued to preach the gospel.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well, ( this is the same word in Romans 10:9 you shall be saved ) ...the greek word "sozo"

[SUP]10 [/SUP] said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he leaped up and began to walk.

Here we have a man lame listening to the gospel being preached by Paul. Paul must have said that salvation in Christ has healing in it too in order for the man to have faith to be saved/made well.

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Healing is in the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ and in His finished work for us just as is the forgiveness of sins through His blood.

planitsoon said:

Chuckt · Feb 7, 2016

coby said:

My stepsister chased faith healers around and she still died. She brought people who walked with two canes who should have been in wheelchairs to be healed and they left the same way they came in.

Chuckt · Feb 7, 2016

KennethC said:

Much is required but why am I guilty because of sin because Adam sinned? Why does the Bible say that all have fallen short in Romans 3?

Adam was the prototype of man and we can't do better than the prototype.

Man has a sin problem and man is basically sick so the idea that we have to become super human workers to be saved is false. The sinner who brought the sacrifice in the Old Testament was never examined to give a sacrifice because that would have defeated the purpose.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.-Isaiah 1:8

What kind of works would someone have whose sins were scarlet? How bad would that sinner look for a while and how long would it take his works in Christ to be elevated above his sin to equal great works? For some people it takes a while but there are people in the church who tell people to repent before they can come to Jesus and what they're saying is that you have to clean up your life first and then you come to Jesus. No. Jesus died for sinners and they are going to look messed up so their works will never match their faith in the beginning.

In fact, I think that the fact that many will never see eternal life means that a lot of Christianity has failed in saving the lost:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:14)

The fact that people work and the fact that people are going to hell is failure. So if people are going to hell, I would say that on a works basis, your works (not you personally but Christians) look pretty bad because of the number of people going to hell.

American Standard Version
to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
-Jude 1:15

I expect some of people's works to burn up on the day of judgment:

King James Bible
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/3-15.htm

If your "works" can burn up and since you can still be saved, it wasn't your works that got you to heaven in the fist place.

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