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Oct 1, 2009
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Greetings,

I have really been shaken up by this quote from "Ever Increasing Faith" by Smith Wigglesworth. This is right at the beginning of Chapter 3.



The part that is underlined and in bold really struck me. I realized that my mind is always on me, on my problems and on my state of being. I realized that this is unacceptable. God is to be given all of my focus, as He is the only one who deserves all of that attention. I realize that I have to spend my time thanking Him for all that He has done for me.

So, I got down on my knees and, after a little while, I had my arms up in the air thanking God for everything He has done for me! This is an important truth. No man can die for Christ if he spends his time concerned with the suffering he has to endure. Likewise can no man live for Christ, if he spends his time concerned with his problems and not on God's glory.

I've forgotten to do little things I like to call thank bombs. Whenever I would feel down or something was going wrong, I would thank God for everything going right. Car, job, life, food, house... etc. etc. etc. and then after I would forget why I was feeling so grumpy about something not going right. I forgot about that, thanks for the reminder.

Awesome, awesome God we have!

Quest
Amen, I always have that problem, I always try to look at my own works for justification.
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
I always thought it was strange that we should "strive" or "labor" to enter into rest. Until I realized unless I entered into that rest I would still be living under futility.
 

QuestionTime

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Feb 16, 2010
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Amen, I always have that problem, I always try to look at my own works for justification.
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
I always thought it was strange that we should "strive" or "labor" to enter into rest. Until I realized unless I entered into that rest I would still be living under futility.
This comment of yours was part of my quote in your post:

Pete Martinez said:
I've forgotten to do little things I like to call thank bombs. Whenever I would feel down or something was going wrong, I would thank God for everything going right. Car, job, life, food, house... etc. etc. etc. and then after I would forget why I was feeling so grumpy about something not going right. I forgot about that, thanks for the reminder.

The Bible is written in such a difficult way, that it is easy for people to believe that this striving that is described has to do with striving to obey the Law. Of course God wrote the Bible this way on purpose, so as to hide the mystery of Godliness from all who might seek it with wrong intentions.

Those thank bombs can blow you and I right out of our misery for sure. Glad you remembered and glad I have learned!

Quest
 

QuestionTime

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Feb 16, 2010
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I might of posted this before, but just in case I didn't:

The analogy of nature suggests this idea. It is said that, the darkest period of night is that which borders the closest on the break of day. May not this phenomenon furnish an illustration of our thought? How often does conversion transpire at a time when the subject appears the farthest from the day of grace, and yet, perhaps, in reality the nearest! The cup of iniquity is brimmed and running over; the unhappy servant of sin has reached the end of the tether; Satan, the Pharaoh of this world, has demanded of his oppressed and down-trodden slave, the full toll of bricks without the straw- in other words, some task of heinous iniquity, for the performance of which both the physical and mental powers are in capacitated. Sin has exhausted its powers of invention; iniquity has reached its height of guilt; the world can offer no new attractions of folly; infidelity has achieved its boldest stroke; and the unhappy victim, abandoning all hope of amendment, has made 'a covenant with death, and with hell is at agreement.'



It is then that Jesus of Nazareth passes by. It is then the darkest hour of the moral night that the first ray of the Divine Sun breaks upon the soul. Some startling providence, or some impressive sermon, some personal appeal, or some spirit-stirring volume- perhaps a page of God's own word-has roused the soul from its deep sleep of death, and starting from its unconsciousness and its dreams, wakes to behold the dawn of a new day, a new life, a new creation, a new world! O blissful moment when Jesus thus enters the soul, scattering all the clouds of ignorance and sin, of atheism and unbelief, of self-righteousness and worldly folly; and, creating for Himself a new orbit, henceforth fills and floods its entire being with the life and radiance of his grace, glory, and love.


At creation's dawn the "morning stars sang together for joy;" but sweeter far the music of angels when the 'new creation,' emerging from its chaos of darkness and death, floats into being, instinct with life, glowing with beauty, and melodious with song- God's holiest, greatest, and most sublime work!



"That was a time of wondrous love,
When Christ my Lord was passing by;
He felt His tender pity move,
And brought His great salvation near.



"Guilty, and self-condemned, I stood,
Nor thought His mercy was so near;
When He my stubborn heart subdued,
And planted all His graces there.



"My eyes were sealed, the shades of night
Over all my mental powers were drawn;
He spoke the word, 'Let there be light!'
And straight the day began to dawn."



Just feeling an unusual desire to pray right now,



Quest
 

QuestionTime

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Beloved, you are, perhaps, now in a measure assimilated to your suffering Lord. It is with you a night of grief and solitude, of weeping and watching. God has smitten you. The hand of the Almighty is upon you. What is the cup your Father has given you to drink? Have riches fled?has health faded? have friends changed? has death bereaved? Are earthly hopes blighted? worldly expectations disappointed? human schemes frustrated? Is your path shaded? your life lonely? your actions misunderstood? your motives misconstrued? your work unrewarded? your sensibilities wounded? your spirit crushed? Be it so. Jesus passed through all this before you, and you are but treading the lonely, tearful path He trod; and now, like Him, you are "one that watches for the morning."

Thus, beloved, will it be with you. You are whole nights in your watchtower looking for some ray of hope, some means of deliverance, some source of supply, some drop of comfort, some avenue of escape from a present and a crushing trial. You shall not watch in vain.

Child of the day, walking in darkness, anxiously watching for the light, be of good cheer! The morning dawns, the day breaks, there is a bright light in your cloud, and soon the darkness will have passed, and you shall ever more walk in the light of God's countenance, the joy of Christ's person, and the comfort of the Holy Spirit.

"Give to the winds your fears;
Hope, and be undismayed;
God hears your sighs, and counts your tears;
God shall lift up your head.

"Through waves, and clouds, and storms
He gently clears your way;
Wait His time- your darkest night
Shall end in brightest day."


Quest
 

QuestionTime

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Hebrews 4

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Quest
 
Oct 1, 2009
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If it's from gracegems it's probably Spurgeon. He usually weaved poems into his sermons.
 

QuestionTime

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I'm going to post this bit by bit, a little at a time. I want to read it through slowly and prayerfully because it's quite a long list.

The Character of a Methodist
by John Wesley http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/character/


5. "What then is the mark? Who is a Methodist, according to your own account?" I answer: A Methodist is one who has "the love of God shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost given unto him;" one who "loves the Lord his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his mind, and with all his strength. God is the joy of his heart, and the desire of his soul; which is constantly crying out, "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee! My God and my all! Thou art the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever!"

6. He is therefore happy in God, yea, always happy, as having in him "a well of water springing up into everlasting life," and overflowing his soul with peace and joy. "Perfect love" having now "cast out fear," he "rejoices evermore." He "rejoices in the Lord always," even "in God his Saviour;" and in the Father, "through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom he hath now received the atonement." "Having" found "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of his sins," he cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks back on the horrible pit out of which he is delivered; when he sees "all his transgressions blotted out as a cloud, and his iniquities as a thick cloud." He cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks on the state wherein he now is; "being justified freely, and having peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." For "he that believeth, hath the witness" of this "in himself;" being now the son of God by faith. "Because he is a son, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into his heart, crying, Abba, Father!" And "the Spirit itself beareth witness with his spirit, that he is a child of God." He rejoiceth also, whenever he looks forward, "in hope of the glory that shall be revealed;" yea, this his joy is full, and all his bones cry out, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten me again to a living hope -- of an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for me!"

Quest
 

QuestionTime

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Feb 16, 2010
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Alright... Wow...

I printed out John Wesley's "The Character of a Methodist." I then spent time prayerfully reading through each of the 14 paragraphs of characteristics that he provides. As I read through them, I determined in my heart to believe that they are true of me. I could see that some of the characteristics were already in me in a large measure, and that some of the characteristics were hardly to be found.

That was all well and beneficial, but a thought occurred to me. The thought was this: "Ought I just to believe these things be true of me, and wait for God to move me to behave that way? Or ought I - since I believe these things to be true - begin to act like they are true. Should I just focus on changing the way I believe, or should I also start to change my behavior to line up with my beliefs?"

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I ought to go about and start keeping God's Law. I'm not implying that any action is required on my part for salvation, as I know that I am saved by faith in Christ's merits alone. What I am thinking though, is that it may be beneficial to me to start behaving like the person that God says that I am, rather than to just expect my behavior to change automatically. I am frustrated by the lack of change in me. I want to have this Living Faith with the deepest assurance right now!

But is this right? Ought I to start behaving like what Christ says I am? Ought any effort to be put forth on my part, or should everything be from the motions of Christ in my heart? In other words, will I be a puppet on a string that God moves to eat and brush his teeth, etc., or will I exert my own effort, according to what I believe is true about who I am and my relationship to God? Do I put forth effort in small things like brushing my teeth and let God put forth effort in larger matters like serving others?

I remember when I was 16, before my Justification experience. I had some sort of belief in God and a love for God. That love carried me through everyday. That love moved me to be a good son and to keep the house clean. That love made me responsible. Now-a-days, I am anything but responsible. Instead I am often lazy.

Anyway, the point I am making is this: That when I was 16, I remember distinctly times where I would endeavor to clean the house or behave a certain way - not because I felt it was a requirement with God - but because that behavior lined up with who I believed myself to be. I remember going crazy with cleaning when my Dad told me I didn't have the Holy Spirit! I was so upset and so confident that I did, that I went about cleaning up the whole house just to prove it to him!

But anyway...

Gentlemen, if you have opinions to share, please do. I really need to know what is right and wrong. I have to trust God though, that He will lead me in the correct path either way.

I am afraid to step out and start behaving this way, because it's radical. It will take a great effort on my part. The danger too would be that I might begin to trust in my works, or believe that they are necessary to be continued for my salvation. I am beginning though, to be convinced that this new path is one I ought to tread. I am increasingly convinced, that the knowing of who Christ says I am and my claiming to believe Him, ought to result in me putting forth physical efforts in that direction.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

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Feb 16, 2010
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For an example of what I mean, I will analyze part of paragraph 9:

9. And while he thus always exercises his love to God, by praying without ceasing, rejoicing evermore, and in everything giving thanks, this commandment is written in his heart, "That he who loveth God, love his brother also."

If I read this, and believe that this is who I am in Christ, it says that I will pray without ceasing, rejoice evermore and in everything give thanks. This is who I am, therefore this is how I should logically behave. Not because it's a Law, but rather because this is who I am. It's logical, right?

So then, ought I to now read this and then go about behaving in this manner? Should I determine in my heart, that because this is who I am, that I should then put forth effort to act in just this way? Is a determined effort required of me, or should I just be so enraptured with God's love for me, that I do this without any determination at all?

Probably my analogy - regarding the puppet on the strings - in the post above was not exactly what I was attempting to portray. Obviously God isn't going to make me pick up the toothbrush and brush my teeth. But, will He so convince me that brushing me teeth is good, that I do it with no determined effort? Or do I say: "God, I know that brushing my teeth is good and that I am your child and you love me, so I am going to discipline myself to brush my teeth?"

I find this very difficult and frustrating.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

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Feb 16, 2010
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Upon LivingByGrace's suggestion, I have begun reading Charles Spurgeon's "All of Grace."

I have to admit shamefully that though I quote Wesley often; that we ought to love all sincere Christians regardless of their beliefs - Calvinism/Arminianism - yet, I have not always practiced this in my own heart. There is a whole lot of Finney bashing on the Internet and it makes me angry to see that man of God slandered so often. Most of the slander I have seen comes from a website related to Charles Spurgeon. This therefore has been my struggle regarding reading Spurgeon of late, though in times past I did occasionally read a writing from him.

Anyway, even if others should do evil in this regard, I must not.


Alright, with that aside, the reason I am making this post is because I believe I have found some confirmation to the understanding I have. I am continually subject to a mind-battle of late, Satan always telling me I ought to do certain things before I come to God for salvation. What he tells me - I am nearly certain it is the devil, from his condemning tone - is contrary to my experience. I experience God working in my life, so if something were required of me to be acceptable to God, than how can God be working in my life right now?


Charles Spurgeon:
I would like to make this very plain. I hope that I have done so already; but still, plain as it is, it is only the Lord that can make a man see it. It does at first seem most amazing to an awakened man that salvation should really be for him as a lost and guilty one. He thinks that it must be for him as a penitent man, forgetting that his penitence is a part of his salvation. "Oh," says he, "but I must be this and that," —all of which is true, for he shall be this and that as the result of salvation; but salvation comes to him before he has any of the results of salvation. It comes to him, in fact, while he deserves only this bare, beggarly, base, abominable description, "ungodly." That is all he is when God's gospel comes to justify him.

The Bible says that God grants repentance. If God grants it, it is a gift just like faith is a gift. So both the repent and believe are gifts of God, given in a moment.

Quest
 
Oct 1, 2009
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Yea the reason there is so much Finney bashing is that overall he placed much emphasis on the will of man. At the end of his life much of his revivals fell into deep apostasy, which is why I'm not such a big fan of Finney. Wesley, on the other hand, I can enjoy. While I feel he places too much emphasis on the will of man he knew where to draw the line as far as when man's responsibility had met it's limit. I still remember a convicting paper by Wesley called "Almost Christian" which is still in my mind to this day. It actually made a big impact on me. A.W. Tozer is another I enjoy reading. While he's not exactly arminian he does love taking potshots at calvinists. But his vision of God is absolutely amazing. So yes, we can all get along.

I feel though, that if a person emphasizes what we must do or what we haven't done, he should after point us directly to the cross, and have us look upon Christ. If he does not, then the only thing he has accomplished is stir us up on emotionalism, which does not save. The only thing emotionalism does is have us run around like headless chickens until we burn out.

You'll like Spurgeon. He does emphasize on our failure and what we haven't done or should do, but he immediately makes a beeline for the cross. He emphasizes looking unto God and relying on him instead of ourselves.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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Yea the reason there is so much Finney bashing is that overall he placed much emphasis on the will of man. At the end of his life much of his revivals fell into deep apostasy, which is why I'm not such a big fan of Finney. Wesley, on the other hand, I can enjoy. While I feel he places too much emphasis on the will of man he knew where to draw the line as far as when man's responsibility had met it's limit. I still remember a convicting paper by Wesley called "Almost Christian" which is still in my mind to this day. It actually made a big impact on me. A.W. Tozer is another I enjoy reading. While he's not exactly arminian he does love taking potshots at calvinists. But his vision of God is absolutely amazing. So yes, we can all get along.

I feel though, that if a person emphasizes what we must do or what we haven't done, he should after point us directly to the cross, and have us look upon Christ. If he does not, then the only thing he has accomplished is stir us up on emotionalism, which does not save. The only thing emotionalism does is have us run around like headless chickens until we burn out.

You'll like Spurgeon. He does emphasize on our failure and what we haven't done or should do, but he immediately makes a beeline for the cross. He emphasizes looking unto God and relying on him instead of ourselves.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Hi Pete,

Enjoyed that post. I have several Finney books, and there are some really good points. Sadly, you are correct that he over emphasized the will of man. It is through the work of the Spirit we rely on for Sanctification, Mortification on the other hand is our battle against the flesh, yet we still have the strength of the Holy Spirit helping and leading in this area also.

I like Wesley, even though I am reformed, yet I don't agree with his soteriology or Holiness theology, yet I understand what he is trying to say, but cannot agree. I enjoy reading alot of arminian writers and listening to arminian preachers, for they are Born again also, but from my point of view they just have not grasped that God is the initiator to Salvation not man. AW Tozer is great to read.

A good read for anyone would be, Martin Lloyd Jones along with John Stott.

And Spurgeon, not matter what I have from him always points to the cross.

Thanks for your post.

Phil
 
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There is a great question that is being asked in this forum lately. The question is: "What is a Christian?"

My personal definition of a Christian is someone who: "Loves the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, strength and mind."
Hi QuestionTime,
A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheisticreligion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who they believe is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, and the Son of God. The term "Christian" is also used adjectivally to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense "all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like."
KayCee
 
Oct 1, 2009
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Phil36, thank you for your recommendations, I have heard much about Martin Lloyd Jones and John Stott, I will look into them.
 

QuestionTime

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Hi QuestionTime,
A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheisticreligion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who they believe is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, and the Son of God. The term "Christian" is also used adjectivally to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense "all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like." KayCee

Wow, that's a fantastic response KayCee, very knowledgeable. I especially like this part:
"all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like."

Quest
 
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QuestionTime

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YAt the end of his life much of his revivals fell into deep apostasy, which is why I'm not such a big fan of Finney.
Thanks for the reply Pete,

It's conclusions like this that upset me, because I have noticed that these conclusions are contrary to the conclusions others have drawn regarding Finney. It's all a matter of the source where people get their info. I remember too finding a comment on that Spurgeon page which was completely contrary to Finney lectures that I had saved on my computer at the time.

This is identical to the two camps which debate how much responsibility - if any - John Calvin had for the murder of Michael Servetus.

This is why I judge Finney by what I have read, and I have many times been blessed by what I read, as have a great many other people (Keith Green being a prominent name). I don't get into debates on these issues because I don't have sufficient and reliable enough information to make conclusions either way. This is where my complaint lies.

Keith Green's life and the lives of the people in his ministry were radically impacted by Finney. That's good enough for me.

Quest
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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Thanks for the reply Pete,

It's conclusions like this that upset me, because I have noticed that these conclusions are contrary to the conclusions others have drawn regarding Finney. It's all a matter of the source where people get their info. I remember too finding a comment on that Spurgeon page which was completely contrary to Finney lectures that I had saved on my computer at the time.

This is identical to the two camps which debate how much responsibility - if any - John Calvin had for the murder of Michael Servetus.

This is why I judge Finney by what I have read, and I have many times been blessed by what I read, as have a great many other people (Keith Green being a prominent name). I don't get into debates on these issues because I don't have sufficient and reliable enough information to make conclusions either way. This is where my complaint lies.

Keith Green's life and the lives of the people in his ministry were radically impacted by Finney. That's good enough for me.

Quest

Hi Question time I have read Much of 'Finneys' work:

God's Love for a sinning world'
True Saints,
Victory over the world,
The guilt of sin,
So great Salvation.

Charles Finney's theology is nothing to be admired to be honest. I am fully aware of what Charles Finney was teaching.
To get information you have to go to the source, in this case finney himself.


[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] in Finney’s theology, God is not sovereign, man is not a sinner by nature, the atonement is not a true payment for sin, justification by imputation is insulting to reason and morality, the new birth is simply the effect of successful techniques, and revival is a natural result of clever campaigns. In his fresh introduction to the bicentennial edition of Finney’s Systematic Theology, Harry Conn commends Finney’s pragmatism: "Many servants of our Lord should be diligently searching for a gospel that ‘works’, and I am happy to state they can find it in this volume."

As Whitney R. Cross has carefully documented, the stretch of territory in which Finney’s revivals were most frequent was also the cradle of the perfectionistic cults that plagued that century. A gospel that "works" for zealous perfectionists one moment merely creates tomorrow’s disillusioned and spent supersaints. Needless to say, Finney’s message is radically different from the evangelical faith, as is the basic orientation of the movements we see around us today that bear his imprint such as: revivalism (or its modern label. the Church Growth Movement), or Pentecostal perfectionism and emotionalism, or political triumphalism based on the ideal of "Christian America," or the anti-intellectual, and antidoctrinal tendencies of many American evangelicals and fundamentalists.

Not only did the revivalist abandon the doctrine of justification, making him a renegade against evangelical Christianity; he repudiated doctrines, such as original sin and the substitutionary atonement, that have been embraced by Roman Catholics and Protestants alike. Therefore, Finney is not merely an Arminian’, but a Pelagian. He is not only an enemy of evangelical Protestantism, but of historic Christianity of the broadest sort.

Of one thing Finney was absolutely correct: The Gospel held by the Reformers whom he attacked directly, and indeed held by the whole company of evangelicals, is "another gospel" in distinction from the one proclaimed by Charles Finney. The question of our moment is, With which gospel will we side? (Extract from M.Horton)

I for one will not side with Finneys Gospel.

In Love

Phil
[/FONT]
 

QuestionTime

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[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]in Finney’s theology, God is not sovereign, man is not a sinner by nature, the atonement is not a true payment for sin, justification by imputation is insulting to reason and morality, the new birth is simply the effect of successful techniques, and revival is a natural result of clever campaigns.[/FONT]


I bet this was a cut and paste from the Spurgeon page.

God is not sovereign as far as choosing to send the majority to hell and save a few for no special reason. I agree with that.

Man is not a sinner by nature. It's a minority doctrine such as Annihilationism. Hardly worth condemning a man to hell for.

The atonement is not a true payment for sin. I have never seen anything of the sort from Finney.

Justification by Imputation is insulting apparently. I have not read this either.

The new birth is the result of successful techniques I know for a fact from what I was reading yesterday this is not true. He said salvation is a gift of God agreeing with Wesley.

I just don't see this stuff. The only thing I remember seeing that I disagree with is his denial of Original Sin. There are preachers on YouTube that preach that. It's hardly uncommon.

Quest