You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee Christ is not the Thief but to the ignorant and lost Those who have false doctrines of peace, and safety .

Hello OtherWay210,

I would have to respectfully disagree with that, in that Jesus is telling us, the believer, to watch because he is going to come as a thief in the night, just as the scripture that I provided makes clear. Here it is again:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

In the scripture above, the message is directed to believers to stay awake, because he is going to come like a thief to gather his church. Like the home owner not knowing at what time the thief would could come, believers don't know at what time the Lord is going to appear. Why would it be referring to the ignorant and the lost, they aren't reading God's word?

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak.But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

It is obvious from the scripture above that Jesus is represented by the thief and the owner of the house represents the believer, who like the owner of the house must watch and that because the Lord will be coming like a thief to gather the church.

The phrase ( we are not appointed to wrath ) was never meant to convey a false narrative of being raptured, or removed from the Tribulation itself.

The wrath of God, also known as the day of the Lord, will take place in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Since the wrath of God is initiated by the opening of the first seal, then the church must be gathered prior to that first seal being opened, ergo, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or the wrath of condemning judgment at the great white throne.

Scripture also states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath:

"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath."

The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place in between now and when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. Some have said that the wrath spoken of is in reference to those who are thrown into the lake of fire. But the fact is that, the believer is not appointed to suffer any kind of wrath and that because the wrath that every believer deserves was poured out on Jesus and has therefore been satisfied completely. The church cannot go through God's coming wrath, which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. The promise of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 will take place prior to that wrath.

The impulse to run to a rapture doctrine; or familiar comforting catch phrases they hear from so many confused brothers and sisters;

No one is running to a rapture doctrine, but we are believing what the word of God says regarding the subject. We believe just as the Lord said, that those are still alive will be changed and caught up with those who will have previously resurrected. And this must take place prior to the first seal being opened because God's wrath has already been satisfied on every believers behalf.

I believe is made more desperate or pressing in the mind , due to the false narrative bad teachers paint the tribulation to be. One of death agony , or pain and physical torments .

That response would only work on those who were taught this by teachers. However, my conclusions come from over 40 years of studying the word of God and end-time events. Their my own studies and not from any man.

That is just Not what Christ taught in Matthew 24, nor any other place this subject is taught in the Bible.

Matt.24 is not in reference to the church, but reveals the signs leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Those gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 is not the gathering of the church, but will be those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom. According to the parable in Matt.13, the weeds will be gathered first and then the wheat, which is referring to the great tribulation saints. These will be in their mortal bodies and will be those who repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom, along with the woman/Israel.

Jesus also said that he would keep us out of that time of trial that is coming upon the earth:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

As I said, the underlying principle is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves and we therefore are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

“First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” Matthew 13:30

This has always bothered me. It don't match our thinking about the rapture.

True. Some believe this is not a verse concerning the rapture but is instead after the millennium. The very end of the harvest.

 

[heartofdavid]

True. Some believe this is not a verse concerning the rapture but is instead after the millennium. The very end of the harvest.

Yes,because it says they are burned.
It HAS TO BE the GWT Judgement.
It is definately after the millineum

 

[heartofdavid]

Hello OtherWay210,

I would have to respectfully disagree with that, in that Jesus is telling us, the believer, to watch because he is going to come as a thief in the night, just as the scripture that I provided makes clear. Here it is again:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

In the scripture above, the message is directed to believers to stay awake, because he is going to come like a thief to gather his church. Like the home owner not knowing at what time the thief would could come, believers don't know at what time the Lord is going to appear. Why would it be referring to the ignorant and the lost, they aren't reading God's word?

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak.But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

It is obvious from the scripture above that Jesus is represented by the thief and the owner of the house represents the believer, who like the owner of the house must watch and that because the Lord will be coming like a thief to gather the church.



The wrath of God, also known as the day of the Lord, will take place in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Since the wrath of God is initiated by the opening of the first seal, then the church must be gathered prior to that first seal being opened, ergo, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or the wrath of condemning judgment at the great white throne.

Scripture also states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath:

"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath."

The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place in between now and when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. Some have said that the wrath spoken of is in reference to those who are thrown into the lake of fire. But the fact is that, the believer is not appointed to suffer any kind of wrath and that because the wrath that every believer deserves was poured out on Jesus and has therefore been satisfied completely. The church cannot go through God's coming wrath, which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. The promise of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 will take place prior to that wrath.



No one is running to a rapture doctrine, but we are believing what the word of God says regarding the subject. We believe just as the Lord said, that those are still alive will be changed and caught up with those who will have previously resurrected. And this must take place prior to the first seal being opened because God's wrath has already been satisfied on every believers behalf.



That response would only work on those who were taught this by teachers. However, my conclusions come from over 40 years of studying the word of God and end-time events. Their my own studies and not from any man.



Matt.24 is not in reference to the church, but reveals the signs leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Those gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 is not the gathering of the church, but will be those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom. According to the parable in Matt.13, the weeds will be gathered first and then the wheat, which is referring to the great tribulation saints. These will be in their mortal bodies and will be those who repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom, along with the woman/Israel.

Jesus also said that he would keep us out of that time of trial that is coming upon the earth:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

As I said, the underlying principle is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves and we therefore are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

No,and i will tell you why.
THEY ARE CUT TOGETHER. The workers had previously requested what you believe,for the tares to be remived FIRST. That idea was rejected. They are harvested TOGETHER....Then separated into two groups. THEN the tares are gathered from THAT SEPARATE PILE,previously REMOVED from the wheat pile.
That idea that the weeds are harvested leaving the wheat standing is literally impossible. Then adding that they are burned by the gatherers places it at the GWT Judgement.
Besides that,armageddon is not a worldwide event,so only limited tares are destroyed.

Plus,at the GWTJ the tares and wheat are gathered together to be judged.
Again,there is no rapture of any sort after the gt. The closest thing would be the gathering of the elect FROM HEAVEN (us already there) BY ANGELS, not Jesus in mat 24

 

[louis]

The entire seven years is God's wrath, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues of the two witnesses and the beasts kingdom. It is all apart of God's wrath. His wrath is not against those who worship the beast, but the proud, arrogant and all of those who will have rejected Christ.

Good morning Ahwatukee,
Do you understand what true worship means? It means the people who will worship the beast will love the beast and what its image represents which is peace and prosperity (Daniel 8:24-25).
Put one and one together now. Is Gods wrath falling upon those who are experiencing peace and prosperity during the 3.5 year reign of the beast? Answer: No they are not.
Even the saints will be worn out by the beast mouth/the little horn during the beasts 3.5 year reign of peace and prosperity (Daniel 7:25), because they will have no logical retort. But at the conclusion of the beasts 3.5 year reign of peace and prosperity the judgment shall sit to take away the beasts kingdom and to consume it to the end (Daniel 7:26), at which time the kingdom on earth is awarded to the saints (Daniel 7:27).
The consumption of the beasts kingdom (the seven vials of Gods wrath upon the faithless), therefore commences following the 3.5 year reign in which the beast and its worshippers are riding high in some type of hedonistic euphoria.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Only the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period will be a false peace. But in the middle of the seven he will set up that abomination and proclaim himself to be God. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation throughout the entire seven years to the very end just be fore the Lord returns.

I on the other hand see the first 3.5 years consisting of all the preceding chaos described in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24, which ushers in the beast and his system that temporarily resolves all the bad, and as a result has all the world worshipping the beast and the image its system represents.

 

[heartofdavid]

Matt 25, comes after Matt 24 which describes the trib, so that makes the virgins post trib.




Nothing happens after the virgins except the last judgment.




I don't think it says all, maybe they will be shot or bombed.



Yes.



Yes, but they are not part of the Pentecost kingdom.



.......................

No,one event in one chapter does not necessarily fit another chapter chronologically.
Amazing that you would need lot and noah delivered post flood-post judgement.
You literally thumb your nose at Jesus two vivid analogies.

 

[louis]

I do not believe Christians will be here to worship the beast.

I hold to a dispensational view of the scriptures. The Christian church is not Israel, or “spiritual Israel”.

I believe the Christian church began on the day of Pentecost, and will end with the rapture, which will precede the 7 year trib. The trib was prophesied for Israel, not Christianity.

Nor do I believe that true believers in Christ will be here to worship/love the beast and what its image will represent. Nevertheless, we will be here according to Daniel 7:25, and have no retort to all the peace and prosperity its system will bring in for 3.5 years.

 

[louis]

The "angels gathering of the faithful from the four winds" is referring to Matt.24:31 which takes place at the same time that the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath. In that verse, the angels will be gathering living people, the tares first and the wheat after. This has nothing to do with the church, for the church will have been gathered seven years prior to that event. If you have the church being gathered at Matt. 24:31, then it would mean that the church would have gone through the entire wrath of God. Also, when the Lord appears to gather his church, angels do not gather them. The living will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air where according to John 14:1-3 he will take the entire church back to the Father's house.

I see the gathering from the four winds representing the awarding of Gods kingdom on earth to the saints in Daniel 7:27.

Daniel 7:27 [FONT=&quot]And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.[/FONT]

 

[OtherWay210]

Hello Ahwatukee

Given the current environment of false teachings, and just people forgetting how to read, we have a lot of problems here.
In the comments i see a lot more of commentary, with peppering of scripture totally out of context. A lot of whats said, is contradictory in large part, which is sad to see.
People give an impression they might actually have a clue, but the next breath reveal totally that a commentary from some book is leading the discussion.

We're not permitted to interpret scripture . So when you cite a verse, having to do with The Day Of The LORD, we better not omit something . So when you say " look Christ said I came as a thief -believe me when i say its rapture"" .. That just illustrates the level people have sunk and how much the Bible has been neglected ..

The thief is mentioned in a broader context of All Christ's teachings . And the thief was a warning of what to avoid, not a any moment return doctrine . Where in Matthew 24 does Christ evens state the thief term is understood as " a return at any-moment ;unexpectedly ": Before Satans' tribulation" ????

The answer is; it is not there.

The passage says stay awake, because the false-christ comes first. The phrase " I cam as a thief " is understood as a warning, to not be taken by surprise by all signs Christ taught would precede His return . Satan is the thief in the full report of the passage.


John 10:10(KJV)
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Why would it be referring to the Ignorant ? Because that is what the passage says . Like what i quoted before in my first posts, in 1 Thessalonians 5.


Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Christ is not trying to brake families up . It was the fault of the watchmen sleeping , Not guarding against the thief. What is a shepherd to do , if not protect the sheep from the wolf ?
Christ said there would be many come in His name ; saying they did many wonderful works in His name, and Christ will say in That Day, get away from me, i never knew you .


Jesus's return follow on the tail end of Satans tribulation. That is why the Day of the Lord is said to be as a thief .Because Satan claims to be Christ return, before Christ even gets here.
""I come as a thief " was a warning of a negative consequence to avoid Not to cheer for !



Its obvious Christ is presenting that teaching to say watch for the events leading up to His return that is taught throughout the Bible .

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

The reason they are not aware is because they received not the love of the truth, which warns about the coming apostasy . If they insist on saying "peace and safety", which the raptures teaching aims to do; its the same equivalent as whats said there in Luke 12:45- 46. They exclaim : " The Lord delays His coming" , so the first Lord that arrives, is accepted .

Drunken on false doctrines such as rapture ; the beating they dish out to the maidens and menservants, would be equivalent to of the braiding of anyone that's actually trying to warn the false Christ comes first . Its a like teaching of the mark of the beast in a sense. And as 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 states; they are compared to the whore. She says I sit a queen. And really Christ is the King, and shes just a whore by the time He actually arrives. The deception of Satan , and these false teachings that set people up for it, is what is leading to this disaster of the Christian churches ...


Its strange how a false doctrine, only permits a widening of some scriptures ( out of context ) convenient to sustain it .
You said " well the wrath of God pertains to the day of the Lord," but then you said ; the term thief in the night, has no context to the day of the Lord !
.Many people in the thread follow that same folly . ..

You said the church must be gathered before the first seal, yet that is not what Christ ever said in Matthew 24 , nor is that thought found any place. Got Scripture that actually explains that ? ( without commentary ) .

Id ask why is tribulation put on hold so they can be sealed ; if they were just going to be taken out ?
What is shown is they are sealed with truth that sustains them . That is the only way to avoid the deception or Wrath of God is by having truth .


I'd ask Who is Gods wrath directed against ? Its not Christians .. The only ones who would want to run, or be removed from the tribulation, are those expecting wrath. If God's not angry at the Saints, why would they be subject to Gods Wrath ? The Wrath is the tribulation, in the context of those who Apostatizes during it . 2 Thess 2 explains that .

Gods Wrath is not poured on Christian . Unless that Christian apostatizes, that is the only scenario the Bible gives where one ought to be concerned about Gods wrath.
Don't worship Satan by listening to Christ's for-warnings about that tribulation ;
then Wrath can be averted.

If we apply your thinking to the apostles, we'd conclude Wrath came upon Stephen and the early Church or any number of Christians today that die for their faith ? But even with that extreme, the Satans tribulation is not narrated as one being a physical battle against the saint, but a spiritual one where the state of the soul is at stake .

That is the prophecy plainly shown in Revelation 20. They all went through the tribulation of Satan .Some to everlasting life, others to shame, and everlasting contempt.

Just saying that "Christians don't deserve to have hardships" does not make it biblical ..
I'm not even sure where you're getting that idea; since you've provided No scriptures for that.

Was Paul for example ; ever taken from adversity for Christs name sake ?

2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

No where does John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 indicate any subject of taking anyone anywhere before the tribulation ..
1 Thes.4:13-18 is comfort for those concerned about their dead loved ones. Paul simply mentions Christ rose and so does a believer .
In that context we all will be together at the very end . No place is the tribulation eluded to for one to insert a rapture before the tribulation ..Because Paul is not teaching about it ..
The subject is just life after death and the return of Christ is added to that through to for comforts sake .
If read for what it says, at the Trump of God the voice of the Angel, indicates Christs return at the Last trump.
That is the only mentioning of the events of the end in that Chapter. We're Not allowed to form a doctrine in this passage from thin air ; such as "" rapture before the tribulation " ..

Christ's return is taught in for one in Revelation 11:15 . He returns with armies and Paul is saying, those Christians who have passed on, in Heaven with Christ, will be brought back here to earth so will be ever be with the Lord ..


No rapture mentioned . No one can provide one verse stating such.
All i see are people piling commentary onto one or two verses without regard to the Bibles whole narrative .




If someone stands for Christs name, which Matthew 24 is teaching that defines a Christian, and a Church .
.. No where does the chapter state " not for Christians don't worry " When i hear that, that is like saying
" Don't listen to Christ, listen to me " .
.
Those gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 The elect are mentioned .The elect are Christians . Saints are Christians .These terms are used interchangeably throughout the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

These people are preparing the brothers and sisters with the truth . they are teaching the Word of God Bringing many to the faith. They do not bring us to faith of Christ, then to ignore the gospel armor. The passages are taught, for the edifying of the Body, and when Christ Himself states, there will be a tribulation, Hes doing so for a reason . The opening Chapters of Revelation is addressed to the Churches .


Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The verse does not say, its just for this group or that group or not the church . Just just not add to or subtract from the Bible.


Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is a plain statement. Those that believe in Christ, are Christians . There is dividing this chapter up here.


At the point of the gathering of the tears and wheat, the tribulation s over. Christ has returned.
There are no verses indicating a overpopulation of the earth, or even a need for one .
That is yet another fake doctrine spun from another false doctrine, which says the lubrication is going to be a world war or nukes .That is not written anywhere in the bible...Only place that is found is in commentary's of men and works of fiction ..

People being in flesh bodies, is in direct opposition to Paul's letter 1 Corinthians 15

1 Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit in corruption. Heaven being here on earth, there is no way anyone is going to be in flesh bodies during the Lords day.


We are kept from the Wrath, the negative consequence of falling into the deception by heeding the warning before the fact .
Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

 

[OtherWay210]

Correction :
This is a plain statement. Those that believe in Christ are Christians . There is NO dividing this chapter up here to fit book someone authored .
lubrication- Tribulation etc
Overpopulation - re population

i rely too much on spell check.

 

[louis]

From what I know through scripture, Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the result of the 7th trumpet and is the 3rd woe and which is also the reason for his wrath which will cover that last 3 1/2 years. His "knowing that his time is short" is referring to the fact that when Jesus returns to the earth 3 1/2 years later, he will be thrown into the Abyss and locked up for a thousand years. But even though Satan will have wrath at that time, the seven years is still the time of God's wrath. Everything going on during that time period is related to God's wrath.

See if this sounds less dogmatic, and a little more logical.
In Revelation 12:9 we see the devil and his angels cast out of heaven to the earth where the dragon realizes he has a short time remaining (Revelation 12:12), upon which he then gives his power to the beast (Revelation 13:2), causing the beast to rise from the sea (Revelation 13:1), aka, the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2).
Now if we realize that prior to the dragon giving his power to the beast, the world had been experiencing the worst of times as indicated in Mark 13, Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Revelation 8; the dragons world systems being in such dissaray would then indicate his governing of the world under the current status quo having collapsed, and thus requiring change.

Revelation 12:9 [FONT=&quot]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 9:And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star (the dragon, the deceiver, and false illuminater) fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.[/FONT]

 

[louis]

louis You are correct . The one taken is taken in lies and deception . Remember Revelation 12,a flood goes after the Christian with a flood from the mouth of The Serpent ..

So Christs' actual return , will be unexpected, because the rest were taken by the lies of the false Christ ; which is The subject of that passage you quoted.

The thief is Satan ; and tribulation of Satan will confuse Christians to where Christ appearing wont be expected .

Christ is not the thief. But people who have not regarded the Bible or been mislead, will be taken as a thief. Consider exactly the language Christ used when addressing the Church of Sardis .

Correct; it is the same mouth (aka the little horn) who shall wear out the saints for a time, times, and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25.
This time, times, and dividing of time (Daniel 7:25), is the same time, times, and half a time in Revelation 12:14 in which the dragon casts a flood of argument against the woman (saints) in Revelation 12:15 through his mouth.



Daniel 7:25 [FONT=&quot]And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[/FONT]Revelation 12:14 [FONT=&quot]And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.[/FONT]

 

[OtherWay210]

I didnt read your full reply Lois to Ahwatukee

But Ill mention this before i sign out. The woes, are 5th 6th and 7th ( last ) ..

Satan at the point between the 5th and 6th, are equivalent to the midst of the week in Daniel .

But the passage in Revelation 9 explains why Satan said to have a short time. Because in Matthew 24, Christ shorted the days
.. So you'd have to shorten the 3.1/2 years to five months as that chapter indicates .

The confirming the covenant with many for one week, can be understood as the Last 2.5 months the 5th trump.
The 6th trump which is the second woe, is when Satan makes his full show as false messiah. Which would be the ((second beast)) mentioned in Revelation 13. Christ shows up to dispel the lies, and take over at the Last Trump ( 7th ) . The return of Christ is said to be a woe, because of the wrath poured out. The state Satan and his system leaves people in; the souls of many believers, is what is being described with much of the symbolism . Christ is not going to be happy about that...

Paul says as much in 1 Cor 15 , at the end, about verse 50 an on .


Seeing the dragon really there at the 2.5 mark, Revelation 13:1 probably would be better translated, as the Dragon stood upon the stand of the sea, and John observed the also the beast rise out of the sea."


ill probably return later ..

 

[louis]

I didnt read your full reply Lois to Ahwatukee

But Ill mention this before i sign out. The woes, are 5th 6th and 7th ( last ) ..

Satan at the point between the 5th and 6th, are equivalent to the midst of the week in Daniel .

But the passage in Revelation 9 explains why Satan said to have a short time. Because in Matthew 24, Christ shorted the days
.. So you'd have to shorten the 3.1/2 years to five months as that chapter indicates .

The confirming the covenant with many for one week, can be understood as the Last 2.5 months the 5th trump.
The 6th trump which is the second woe, is when Satan makes his full show as false messiah. Which would be the ((second beast)) mentioned in Revelation 13. Christ shows up to dispel the lies, and take over at the Last Trump ( 7th ) . The return of Christ is said to be a woe, because of the wrath poured out. The state Satan and his system leaves people in; the souls of many believers, is what is being described with much of the symbolism . Christ is not going to be happy about that...

Paul says as much in 1 Cor 15 , at the end, about verse 50 an on .


Seeing the dragon really there at the 2.5 mark, Revelation 13:1 probably would be better translated, as the Dragon stood upon the stand of the sea, and John observed the also the beast rise out of the sea."


ill probably return later ..

Hello OtherWay210,
In Revelation 12:14 the time the travailing woman is fed the Word of God in the wilderness for the time, times, and half a time in Revelation 12:6 is explained as 1,260 days.
If we then take the time (1), and times (2), and half a time (1/2), which add up to 3.5 times and divide them into the 1,260 days, (1,260/3.5), we end up with 360 days equaling a time.
As such, I believe the shortened years represent these 360 day (time) periods.

Revelation 12:6 [FONT=&quot]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.[/FONT]

I agree with your perspective about the dragon standing on the sand of the sea, as it represents his last stand.
The sea is that from which the beast shall rise, thereby indicating the power the dragon provides the beast.
By my understanding of the environmental catastrophes in Revelation 8 that are caused by the love mankind has for material goods his hands produce according to Revelation 9:20; I then surmise that the power from the sea the dragon provides the beast will be fusion (the same power that powers the sun), that scientists claim will be a clean source of energy relative to fossil fuel use that is responsible for the events in Revelation 8.
The dragon will provide the key to attaining this bottomless pit of energy that will bring about the far worse consequences described in Revelation 9, thereby indicating that fusion energy will not be the benign clean source of energy scientists currently claim it will be.

Revelation 9:20 [FONT=&quot]And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues[/FONT][FONT=&quot] yet repented not of the works of their hands[/FONT][FONT=&quot], that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:[/FONT]

 

[louis]

Fusion energy will bring about the great prosperity that will have all the faithless woshipping the beast, along with the dragon who will have provided the beast with the key to its attainment (Revelation 13:4).

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[louis]

By the way, "who is able to make war with him" in regards to the beast in Revelation 13:4, does not represent a military type battle; but instead indicates anyone contending with the beast's system will be unable to bring up anything of substance against his system that will provide mankind with all the material goodies and ushers in hedonistic lifestyle comparable to that as in the days of Noah (Matthew 24:37-38; Luke 17:26-27).

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

 

[abcdef]

No,one event in one chapter does not necessarily fit another chapter chronologically.
Amazing that you would need lot and noah delivered post flood-post judgement.
You literally thumb your nose at Jesus two vivid analogies.

Brother Heart,

Somehow you must have gotten mixed upon those passages.

The time of trouble/tribulation for Noah was before the flood, when He was surrounded by sin and temptation. When he left on the ark, his time of trouble was over.

Lot's time of trouble and sin was before the fire from heaven, when he was in the city, his trouble ended when he left.

So both of those analogies show post trib evacuation.

 

[davida]

No, brother, it shows God delivered them from judgement.

The angels could do nothing until Lot has left the city.

 

[abcdef]

Hi davida,

No, brother, it shows God delivered them from judgement.

Well, I think that the judgments were already made.

Maybe you want to say that they were saved from the wrath of God, and I agree with you on that.

In Noah's case, he was delivered from the flood waters. In Lot's case the destruction of fire.

--------

When was the tribulation of Noah? The time before the flood, or after the flood began, when God shut the door on the ark and His wrath was poured out (the withdrawing of blessings on the earth, and the waters came flooding in)?

The time of Noah's trouble was before he was evacuated. He lived with sin of the worst kind, it seems that it was about everything evil that you could imagine. Things that corrupted even the very flesh of the animals and plants. Everything living that Noah knew about in his world. Perhaps even the very earth itself, was filled with the blood of righteous men calling from the earth.

It may have been that Noah was the last Jehovah worshiper of the human souls that was left. Alone in worship, except for his family, the outlook for the worship of the true God by the human souls was looking,.....bad. The temptation to give up and give in to sin was probably greater for Noah's family, especially if Noah was to pass away.

Oh, and then God tells Noah to build this huge ark, I bet that was something to see Noah's face when he learned that!

So Noah had to resist sin, keep his family close, fight off ridicule, and obey God to save the entire race of human souls. I would say that would be great trouble.

What about after the flood came? When Noah was in the ark? Was he confident in faith towards God, that God had prepared a plan? Was there temptation like there was before the flood began? Was there sin like there was before the flood began? What sin and temptation was there now?

Once Noah was evacuated, and under the protection of God, he had nothing to fear, really.

But what happened to the human souls who didn't get in the ark? Did any survive? Did any survive the wrath of God?

1 Peter 3:1-13, 7, 12, 13. This heavens and earth are reserved for fire. Who will escape the fire of God when the elements melt with intense heat? No one will, except those in the ark covenant of Jesus.

We will escape, but then it is the new heavens and earth of eternity, after we are changed.

---

When was the tribulation of Lot? The time before the evacuation or after he left the cities?

Lot was in the same situation as Noah, his righteous soul was vexed every day because of sin and temptation, for himself and his family. He was getting pulled into temptation every day. He may have been some kind of marketer, who had to interact with the people around him, he might have been making so much money that it was hard to get out. If he didn't leave, it meant his eternal soul.

Once he left, temptation like he had known was gone, sin like he had known was gone.

Who in the cities survived the wrath of God when Lot left? It may be assumed that God did not withdraw His blessings until Lot left. He blessed the cities by not destroying them while Lot was there.

Who will survive the fire from God that melts the elements with intense heat and brings us to the new heavens and earth? Only the ones who are evacuated with the angels at the rapture/resurrection (rapt/resur).

---

So the trouble was before the evacuation for Noah and Lot, they were saved from the wrath of God.

------

Now here is where the problem lies, some think, that after we are rapt/resurrected, that there will be survivors. But there will not be any one who survives the fire from heaven, after Jesus comes for the kingdom.

That's like saying, "I'll wait until the door is shut and it starts to rain, then I'll become a Christian." Or, "I'll wait until after Lot and his family leave and the fire starts to fall, then I'll become a Christian."

People think that they can wait until after Jesus comes for the kingdom to be saved, then they will not need faith, they will have proof. They will not turn to Jesus until then. But then it will be too late. The wrath of fire will end the time of earth.

---

When the time of trouble is over, then it is the time for wrath.

The angels could do nothing until Lot has left the city.

Why were they in such a big hurry then?

The wrath was on the way, they had to hurry to escape.

What if Lot had said, "Hey let's stop and pick up some bagels for the trip, and some coffee to go."

Or maybe, "Let's just stop at the top of this hill, and look back, one more time," would God have spared him?

 

[heartofdavid]

Hello Ahwatukee

Given the current environment of false teachings, and just people forgetting how to read, we have a lot of problems here.
In the comments i see a lot more of commentary, with peppering of scripture totally out of context. A lot of whats said, is contradictory in large part, which is sad to see.
People give an impression they might actually have a clue, but the next breath reveal totally that a commentary from some book is leading the discussion.

We're not permitted to interpret scripture . So when you cite a verse, having to do with The Day Of The LORD, we better not omit something . So when you say " look Christ said I came as a thief -believe me when i say its rapture"" .. That just illustrates the level people have sunk and how much the Bible has been neglected ..

The thief is mentioned in a broader context of All Christ's teachings . And the thief was a warning of what to avoid, not a any moment return doctrine . Where in Matthew 24 does Christ evens state the thief term is understood as " a return at any-moment ;unexpectedly ": Before Satans' tribulation" ????

The answer is; it is not there.

The passage says stay awake, because the false-christ comes first. The phrase " I cam as a thief " is understood as a warning, to not be taken by surprise by all signs Christ taught would precede His return . Satan is the thief in the full report of the passage.


John 10:10(KJV)
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Why would it be referring to the Ignorant ? Because that is what the passage says . Like what i quoted before in my first posts, in 1 Thessalonians 5.


Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Christ is not trying to brake families up . It was the fault of the watchmen sleeping , Not guarding against the thief. What is a shepherd to do , if not protect the sheep from the wolf ?
Christ said there would be many come in His name ; saying they did many wonderful works in His name, and Christ will say in That Day, get away from me, i never knew you .


Jesus's return follow on the tail end of Satans tribulation. That is why the Day of the Lord is said to be as a thief .Because Satan claims to be Christ return, before Christ even gets here.
""I come as a thief " was a warning of a negative consequence to avoid Not to cheer for !



Its obvious Christ is presenting that teaching to say watch for the events leading up to His return that is taught throughout the Bible .

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

The reason they are not aware is because they received not the love of the truth, which warns about the coming apostasy . If they insist on saying "peace and safety", which the raptures teaching aims to do; its the same equivalent as whats said there in Luke 12:45- 46. They exclaim : " The Lord delays His coming" , so the first Lord that arrives, is accepted .

Drunken on false doctrines such as rapture ; the beating they dish out to the maidens and menservants, would be equivalent to of the braiding of anyone that's actually trying to warn the false Christ comes first . Its a like teaching of the mark of the beast in a sense. And as 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 states; they are compared to the whore. She says I sit a queen. And really Christ is the King, and shes just a whore by the time He actually arrives. The deception of Satan , and these false teachings that set people up for it, is what is leading to this disaster of the Christian churches ...


Its strange how a false doctrine, only permits a widening of some scriptures ( out of context ) convenient to sustain it .
You said " well the wrath of God pertains to the day of the Lord," but then you said ; the term thief in the night, has no context to the day of the Lord !
.Many people in the thread follow that same folly . ..

You said the church must be gathered before the first seal, yet that is not what Christ ever said in Matthew 24 , nor is that thought found any place. Got Scripture that actually explains that ? ( without commentary ) .

Id ask why is tribulation put on hold so they can be sealed ; if they were just going to be taken out ?
What is shown is they are sealed with truth that sustains them . That is the only way to avoid the deception or Wrath of God is by having truth .


I'd ask Who is Gods wrath directed against ? Its not Christians .. The only ones who would want to run, or be removed from the tribulation, are those expecting wrath. If God's not angry at the Saints, why would they be subject to Gods Wrath ? The Wrath is the tribulation, in the context of those who Apostatizes during it . 2 Thess 2 explains that .

Gods Wrath is not poured on Christian . Unless that Christian apostatizes, that is the only scenario the Bible gives where one ought to be concerned about Gods wrath.
Don't worship Satan by listening to Christ's for-warnings about that tribulation ;
then Wrath can be averted.

If we apply your thinking to the apostles, we'd conclude Wrath came upon Stephen and the early Church or any number of Christians today that die for their faith ? But even with that extreme, the Satans tribulation is not narrated as one being a physical battle against the saint, but a spiritual one where the state of the soul is at stake .

That is the prophecy plainly shown in Revelation 20. They all went through the tribulation of Satan .Some to everlasting life, others to shame, and everlasting contempt.

Just saying that "Christians don't deserve to have hardships" does not make it biblical ..
I'm not even sure where you're getting that idea; since you've provided No scriptures for that.

Was Paul for example ; ever taken from adversity for Christs name sake ?

2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

No where does John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 indicate any subject of taking anyone anywhere before the tribulation ..
1 Thes.4:13-18 is comfort for those concerned about their dead loved ones. Paul simply mentions Christ rose and so does a believer .
In that context we all will be together at the very end . No place is the tribulation eluded to for one to insert a rapture before the tribulation ..Because Paul is not teaching about it ..
The subject is just life after death and the return of Christ is added to that through to for comforts sake .
If read for what it says, at the Trump of God the voice of the Angel, indicates Christs return at the Last trump.
That is the only mentioning of the events of the end in that Chapter. We're Not allowed to form a doctrine in this passage from thin air ; such as "" rapture before the tribulation " ..

Christ's return is taught in for one in Revelation 11:15 . He returns with armies and Paul is saying, those Christians who have passed on, in Heaven with Christ, will be brought back here to earth so will be ever be with the Lord ..


No rapture mentioned . No one can provide one verse stating such.
All i see are people piling commentary onto one or two verses without regard to the Bibles whole narrative .




If someone stands for Christs name, which Matthew 24 is teaching that defines a Christian, and a Church .
.. No where does the chapter state " not for Christians don't worry " When i hear that, that is like saying
" Don't listen to Christ, listen to me " .
.
Those gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 The elect are mentioned .The elect are Christians . Saints are Christians .These terms are used interchangeably throughout the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

These people are preparing the brothers and sisters with the truth . they are teaching the Word of God Bringing many to the faith. They do not bring us to faith of Christ, then to ignore the gospel armor. The passages are taught, for the edifying of the Body, and when Christ Himself states, there will be a tribulation, Hes doing so for a reason . The opening Chapters of Revelation is addressed to the Churches .


Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The verse does not say, its just for this group or that group or not the church . Just just not add to or subtract from the Bible.


Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is a plain statement. Those that believe in Christ, are Christians . There is dividing this chapter up here.


At the point of the gathering of the tears and wheat, the tribulation s over. Christ has returned.
There are no verses indicating a overpopulation of the earth, or even a need for one .
That is yet another fake doctrine spun from another false doctrine, which says the lubrication is going to be a world war or nukes .That is not written anywhere in the bible...Only place that is found is in commentary's of men and works of fiction ..

People being in flesh bodies, is in direct opposition to Paul's letter 1 Corinthians 15

1 Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit in corruption. Heaven being here on earth, there is no way anyone is going to be in flesh bodies during the Lords day.


We are kept from the Wrath, the negative consequence of falling into the deception by heeding the warning before the fact .
Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Where in Matthew 24 does Christ evens state the thief term is understood as " a return at any-moment ;unexpectedly ": Before Satans' tribulation" ????

The answer is; it is not there.

Jesus uses Noah in mat 24 and lot in Luke to describe the rapture.
You have 2 "taking of the righteous" before judgement. (according to the king)


Pretrib rapture is defended by many verses.
Postrib rapture has zero verses.