You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

[heartofdavid]

The one taken is a slave, the one left behind is dead.



Yes, but the trib begins when Israel rejects the kingdom and is broken off. and ends when the natural branches are restored to military control of Jerusalem, Lk 21:20-24.



Look, it was revealed By the dest of Jeru that Jesus is God, because only God could do that.

But it wasn't a resurrection coming as the preterists claim.

Jesus let himself be shown many times after His resurrection.

But they weren't resurrection comings.

There are only 2 resurrections, Jesus and those at His coming 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24. Then it is the end.

The 2nd resurrection unto salvation has not happened yet, that is where Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom.





Then you shouldn't be afraid to talk about it, if you are so sure.

Only what the truth is, is what matters, not who says it.

If you get into the details, pre-trib falls apart. The beast is Rome.

Both pre-trib and preterists have something in common,

They both deny that the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist.

(Please don't associate me with the Locust, I don't play troll games like him.)

I understand the bride who makes herself ready in Matthew 25 the same as they who make themselves ready and not go around naked in Revelation 16:15 which represents Armageddon (Revelation 16:16).
And as the seven vials of Gods wrath is being poured out on the faithless in Revelation 16, the Lord will then have previously gathered His people to the Middle East (Revelation 16:12) to keep them from His wrath poured out on the rest of the world.

Revelation 16:15 [FONT=&quot]Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.[/FONT]

You need a post flood gathering dynamic. A post trib gathering for lot.
Start with the no brainers and THEN proceed.
The Jew is hidden because of the beast.
There are several players left behind.
Orthodox and nominal Jews
Heathen
Backslidden and carnal christians

Those refusing the mark are killed ( carnal christians)
The christians left behind refusing the mark ALL DIE. None are left.
Start with those facts,then proceed.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Brother Ahwatukee,

What would be you thoughts about the possibility, that the scroll held by Jesus in the Rev., is the same scroll that is seen in Dan. 12:4.

Hello abcde,

The scroll that Daniel is told to seal up, is referring to the prophesies written in the book of Daniel regarding those end-time events. The reference to sealing up the words of that information, is that the meaning of them would not be revealed until the end times, which we are now in and which is why we now understand the information contained in Daniel. And that because much of the information in Daniel coincides with the book or Revelation. The scrolls of Daniel and Revelation are two different scrolls regarding the same end-time events. In other words, the scroll that is spoken about regarding Daniel is not that same scroll that Jesus takes out of the Father's hand in Revelation. Daniel's scroll, which makes up the book of Daniel was not sealed with seven seals and does not contain the trumpets and the bowl judgments.

In addition to the above, you made the claim that "The seals are events that are required to happen before the scroll can be opened. Dan 12:4-7." Yet I presented scripture that shows that the breaking of the seals is how the scroll is opened, i.e. the opening of the seals is the opening of the scroll. Therefore, the seals cannot take place prior to the scroll being opened because it is the opening of the seals which opens the scroll.

We agree that the 1st seal is showing the Antichrist, and I have told you that I believe that it is Caesar.

The problem with Caesar being the antichrist is that, he does not fit the criteria. For example, when did Caesar fulfill the prophecy regarding the mark of the beast where everyone on the earth will be required to receive in order to be able to buy and sell? When did Caesar establish a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple and begin sacrificing. And when did Caesar set up the abomination? And who was the false prophet performing those miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of Caesar? The Answer is that none of those mentioned have been fulfilled. The antichrist will appear on earth in conjunction with the time of God's wrath and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

If the Antichrist is revealed at the 1st seal, how can he come out of the abyss (thank you), at the 5th trumpet?

Because the antichrist will be a literal man, or as Paul referred to him as, the man of lawlessness. At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, that angel of the Abyss, who is also called the beast, will come up out of the Abyss and will be the power behind the antichrist. So the antichrist will be a literal man and that angel of the Abyss, the beast, will be the controlling power behind the antichrist. See Rev.9:11

Again I agree, but I believe that the plagues, etc., are against Israel and Rome, not the planet.

When it says the whole world, it usually means the whole world of Israel, in my opinion.

First of all, the wrath of God is not only for Israel, but the entire planet. If you believe that the "the world" only represents Israel, you would be dead wrong! Below are a few examples demonstrating that the entire globe, including every nation on the earth will be exposed to God's wrath.

"When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword."

The scripture above says that peace is taken from the earth to make people kill each other. This being the second seal demonstrates that this is not restricted to Israel.

 

[abcdef]

Daniel 12:6-7 refer to the events at the end of the age which are written about in Daniel 11.

Brother louis,

The end of the age, was the end of the Law age which ended on the cross and the dest of Jeru.

As Paul stated in Heb., it was the last days at the time of his writing.

As such the scattering of the power of the holy people for the time, times, and an half in Daniel 12:7 constitutes an end time event.

The angel was asked "how long to the end of these things"?

The angel said, 3 1/2 t's.

So from the time of the statement of the angel, in Babylon, until the power is scattered 70 ad approx., would be the 3 1/2t's.

There are only two other areas with a simiar reference, which are in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:14.
In Daniel 7:25 the saints are worn out by the 10 horned beasts mouth (aka the Antichrist) for a time, times, and dividing of time.

We know that the iron of the statue in Dan. 2 is Rome, and that the 4th beast of Dan. 7 is Rome.

So it must be assumed that the horn is related to Rome.

So how long does Rome have power over Israel? The time is shown by the Dan 2 statue.

Since the first 3 1/2t's is from Babylon until the scattering 70 ad ish, then the second 3 1/2t's would begin when the first 3 1/2t's ended.

So the time period of the second 3 1/2t's would start at the scattering, and last until Israel is restored to military control of Jerusalem.

This would make the 7 times, the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.
--
The sea beast of Rev 13, which has 7 heads/10 horns (Rome) is also seen being given the power over Israel for 3 1/2t's.

Now please consider this, Rev 17:11, The horn is "of the seven heads", Roman. And the little horn lives during the time of the 10 kings. So how long is the period of the 10 kings?

From the fall of the Roman Empire (10, complete division, not literal), until the power of the people is restored, unscattered.

So the time indicated by the 3 1/2t's is much longer than 3 1/2 literal years.

And in Revelation 12:14 a travailing woman is fed Gods Word for a time, times, and half a time, away from the face of the serpent.

The dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12:3. After the fall of Jeru., Israel was driven and chased by the waters, people,
for the 3 1/2 t's.

This would be the times of the gentiles, described in Lk 21:20-24, 24. When the woman returns from the wilderness of the gentile nations, then the 3 1/2t's would end. so the 3 1/2 t's shown here would be the second 3 1/2t's, lasting much longer the 3 1/2 literal years.

Revelation 12:6 describes this time, times, and half a time as 1,260 days.
If we then take 1 time, and 2 times, and half a time, we have 3.5 times that constitute 1,260 days, thereby indicating each time as 360 days.
1,260 days/3.5 = 360 days (a shortened year).

The numbers are symbolic, and are in the context of symbolic passages.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The first 3 1/2t's, Babylon until 70 ad ish.

Daniel 7:

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time .

The second 3 1/2 t's, 70 ad until Israel is restored to military control of Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The second 3 1/2 t's

Revelation 12:

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[heartofdavid]

Brother Ahwatukee,

What would be you thoughts about the possibility, that the scroll held by Jesus in the Rev., is the same scroll that is seen in Dan. 12:4.



We agree that the 1st seal is showing the Antichrist, and I have told you that I believe that it is Caesar.

If the Antichrist is revealed at the 1st seal, how can he come out of the abyss (thank you), at the 5th trumpet?




Again I agree, but I believe that the plagues, etc., are against Israel and Rome, not the planet.

When it says the whole world, it usually means the whole world of Israel, in my opinion.

The key is always the gentile bride.
The book of Ruth.
Boaz( Jesus) is the kinsman that takes the deed( scroll)
It is almost simultaneous with the consumation of Ruth and Boaz marriage.

Every detail points to pretrib.
Amazing

 

[MattforJesus]

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

God's purpose is to gather all nations together against Jerusalem,for it is the time for God to end this sin business on earth,and when God comes to fight the world all the saints are with Him.

The first attack on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. God allowed to happen,and did not stop them.

The second attack on Jerusalem in the future God will stop them.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Nobody will acknowledge any god or religious figure but the LORD,and the heathen that God spared have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

All the people of the earth shall be gathered together against it.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The fourth beast shall devour the whole earth,tread it down,and break it in pieces,and then God will put them down,and the saints will possess the kingdom,but the saints do not possess the kingdom yet.

God's purpose is to gather all nations together against Jerusalem,Israel,but how could that happen in the first century,which the beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues.

The whole world will attack Israel,but it could of not happened in the 1st century.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

The book is sealed until the time of the end,but how could they understand the book of Daniel in the first century,but today we can understand it.

Daniel did not understand what was told him,but was told to go his way,for the book cannot be understood until the time of the end,for many shall run to and fro,advanced travel,and knowledge shall be increased,advanced technology,which makes it possible for the world to know about each other,communicate with each other,and travel to each other,to come together as one to try to achieve peace on earth,but they will rebel against God,which Paul said when they say Peace and safety the saints will not be deceived by that for they know it is not the operation of God,and the world will rebel against Him.

Today we can see and know what is happening on earth,and how it is possible that the world can come together in which they will rebel against God,so the book is unsealed at the end time,but at the time of Daniel he could not understand what was told him.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The disciples would be in the same position as Daniel that they could not see and know what the world is doing.

But the things Jesus told them that would occur on different places on earth how could the disciples know that back then,for there would be no way possible to understand that nations are going against nations,and kingdom against kingdom,and natural disasters,and famines,and pestilences,that occur on different places on earth,for they would have a limited view of the world.

If there was no advanced travel,but chariots,and no technology,how much would you know of what is going on in the world,that is why Daniel could not understand the book for he had a limited view of the world,and what is going on,and that would be the same with the disciples when Jesus told them of things that would occur in the world.

But today we can hear and see what is going on in the world,and we know of things that happened years ago,and know of WW1,and WW2,and know of natural disasters,and pestilences,and famines,that occur on different places on earth.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Also the saints shall be hated of all nations,not a few,but all nations.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And the Gospel will be preached in to all the world for a witness unto all nations,not a few,all nations,and then the end shall come.

Also the disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom on earth to the Jews at that time,and Jesus said the Father will do it in His time,but the kingdom has not been restored to them yet.

Also God said He would make an end of all Gentile nations,their operating governments,but not make a full end of Israel,but we see there is still operating Gentile governments.

Also God said that He is going to bring back the captivity of Jacob,the whole house of Israel,every tribe back to their land,and leave none of them in the nations,and turn them to the truth,and He will not hide His face from them ever again,and they will know the LORD from the day and forward.

But there are Jews in Gentile nations,and Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and so all Israel shall be saved,and Israel is not in the truth for the most part,and they do not know the LORD as a nation.

When God brings Israel to their land,and leaves none of the Jews in the Gentile nations then they will know the LORD from that day and forward,and He will never hide His face from them again,but if this were a prophesy of the past then Israel as a nation would be in the truth right now,but they are not.

If people think it is talking of the Jews returning to their land at the time of Babylon then Israel would of been in the truth from that point in time,and would of never rejected Jesus but as a nation accepted Him,but Israel as a nation has not been in the truth ever since Jesus was on earth until now.

The man of sin will establish peace in the Middle East in the future,and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel,and the Jews and Gentiles will be separated.

The Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety,as they try to achieve peace on earth,but the saints will know it is not the operation of God,and the world will rebel against Him.

Because of advanced travel,and advanced technology,the saints can hear and see the things that occur on earth,and understand how the world can come together,and know that it is not of God.

At the time of Daniel he could not,so the book was sealed until the end time,so the end time could of not been in the first century,and all prophesy could of not happened in the first century,for the saints would be in the same position as Daniel having a limited view of their world.

When God brings the whole house of Israel to Israel,and leaves none of them in the Gentile nations,they will know the LORD from the day forward,and He will never hide His face from them again,and they will be in the truth from that point and forward,but we see Israel as a nation is not in the truth.

Future event.

The kingdom will be restored to Israel,and there will be no operating Gentile nation,but it has not happened.

Future event.

God will gather all nations together against Jerusalem,Jews,for it is the time for God to end this sin business on earth,which He will punish the world for their sins and iniquities against Him,but we see sin is still in the world,and all nations have never attacked Jerusalem,for without advanced technology,and advanced travel,they could not come together as one to do that.

Future event.

The first attack on Jerusalem,because they rejected Christ,which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say,blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,which God allowed that attack.

The world will attack the Christians in the future,and the resurrection of the saints will happen.

The second attack on Jerusalem,because they accepted Jesus,which they will see Jesus for they say,blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and Jesus comes back with all His saints,and saves Israel,and defeats the world,and the kingdom restored to the Jews,and they will rule over the people that God spared at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[abcdef]

Mat 25 is a vivid picture of the pretrib gathering.

Matt 25, comes after Matt 24 which describes the trib, so that makes the virgins post trib.

Also a vivid picture of half staying behind.

Nothing happens after the virgins except the last judgment.

Makes sense there will be saints present for the GT. The AC kills them all that refuse the mark. All belivers refusing the mark are beheaded.

I don't think it says all, maybe they will be shot or bombed.

The GT is Jacobs-Israels trouble. It involves the testing and harvest of the Jews.

Yes.

The bride is noah, lot,and Ruth.

Yes, but they are not part of the Pentecost kingdom.

The bride is pretib. It is a no brainer. Jesus made it a no brainer

.......................

 

[Ahwatukee]

abcde, I copied this from the previous post in order to continue because something freaky happened which saved my post before I was finished with it.

Brother Ahwatukee,

What would be you thoughts about the possibility, that the scroll held by Jesus in the Rev., is the same scroll that is seen in Dan. 12:4.

Hello abcde,

The scroll that Daniel is told to seal up, is referring to the prophesies written in the book of Daniel regarding those end-time events. The reference to sealing up the words of that information, is that the meaning of them would not be revealed until the end times, which we are now in and which is why we now understand the information contained in Daniel. And that because much of the information in Daniel coincides with the book or Revelation. The scrolls of Daniel and Revelation are two different scrolls regarding the same end-time events. In other words, the scroll that is spoken about regarding Daniel is not that same scroll that Jesus takes out of the Father's hand in Revelation. Daniel's scroll, which makes up the book of Daniel was not sealed with seven seals and does not contain the trumpets and the bowl judgments.

In addition to the above, you made the claim that "The seals are events that are required to happen before the scroll can be opened. Dan 12:4-7." Yet I presented scripture that shows that the breaking of the seals is how the scroll is opened, i.e. the opening of the seals is the opening of the scroll. Therefore, the seals cannot take place prior to the scroll being opened because it is the opening of the seals which opens the scroll.

We agree that the 1st seal is showing the Antichrist, and I have told you that I believe that it is Caesar.

The problem with Caesar being the antichrist is that, he does not fit the criteria. For example, when did Caesar fulfill the prophecy regarding the mark of the beast where everyone on the earth will be required to receive in order to be able to buy and sell? When did Caesar establish a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple and begin sacrificing. And when did Caesar set up the abomination? And who was the false prophet performing those miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of Caesar? The Answer is that none of those mentioned have been fulfilled. The antichrist will appear on earth in conjunction with the time of God's wrath and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

If the Antichrist is revealed at the 1st seal, how can he come out of the abyss (thank you), at the 5th trumpet?

Because the antichrist will be a literal man, or as Paul referred to him as, the man of lawlessness. At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, that angel of the Abyss, who is also called the beast, will come up out of the Abyss and will be the power behind the antichrist. So the antichrist will be a literal man and that angel of the Abyss, the beast, will be the controlling power behind the antichrist. See Rev.9:11

Again I agree, but I believe that the plagues, etc., are against Israel and Rome, not the planet.

When it says the whole world, it usually means the whole world of Israel, in my opinion.

First of all, the wrath of God is not only for Israel, but the entire planet. If you believe that the "the world" only represents Israel, you would be dead wrong! Below are a few examples demonstrating that the entire globe, including every nation on the earth will be exposed to God's wrath.

"When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword."

The scripture above is the second seal, which says that peace is taken from the earth to make people kill each other. This being the second seal demonstrates that this is not restricted to Israel, but is referring to other nations as going to war against one another.

"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

How can the plagues of God's wrath be restricted to Israel, if here at the first trumpet a third of the earth and a third of the trees are being burned up? This would demonstrate that this plague extends to much more than Israel, as it would affect a third of the entire earth.

"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."

Here again, how could the plague above which is the second trumpet, affect only Israel when a third of the creatures in the sea over all the earth are killed and a third of the ships are destroyed? Again it would demonstrate that the entire earth is exposed to God's wrath.

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."

Regarding the fourth bowl judgment, it is said that the sun scorches people with fire, searing them with intense heat, that this only referring to Israel? Doesn't the sun shine on the entire planet? Then why would you claim that it only affects Israel? Obviously from the scripture, all of the inhabitants of the earth are going to be scorched by the sun as a result of the 4th bowl judgment.

Now I have just listed a few to demonstrate to you that God's wrath will be world-wide and that because it is the day of the Lord and will be for the purpose of God pouring out his wrath upon Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world.

 

[louis]

You need a post flood gathering dynamic. A post trib gathering for lot.
Start with the no brainers and THEN proceed.
The Jew is hidden because of the beast.
There are several players left behind.
Orthodox and nominal Jews
Heathen
Backslidden and carnal christians

Those refusing the mark are killed ( carnal christians)
The christians left behind refusing the mark ALL DIE. None are left.
Start with those facts,then proceed.

Anything like this flood in Daniel 9:26, and 11:22?

Daniel 9:26 [FONT=&quot]And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

11:[/FONT]22 [FONT=&quot]And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

The end of the age, was the end of the Law age which ended on the cross and the dest of Jeru.

We must look to scripture as the definition to the meaning of the "end of the age." That said, it is the wrath of God taking place first, with the Lord physically returning to the earth and bringing an end to that time of wrath and all human government. That said, we are still living in this current age, which will come to its end when the Lord returns to the earth.

Regarding the end of the age, Jesus said that he would arrive on the clouds and that every eye would see him. At that same time he also said that he would be sending his angels throughout the earth to gather the wicked. Neither of these events have take place.

 

[louis]

Brother louis,

The end of the age, was the end of the Law age which ended on the cross and the dest of Jeru.

Your perspective about the end of the Law age contradicts the Lords Word in Matthew 5:18-19.
How the Lord fulfills the Law in us, is through love.
Through love, one completes the law, one does not abolish it.

Matthew 5:18 [FONT=&quot]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]

 

[zone]

It is also important to understand that Peter is generalizing in the scripture above and is not something that happens in chronological order. For the world is not destroyed when the Lord returns to end the age. There will be some kind of maintenance performed on the earth after the Lord returns to end the age and that because HIs thousand year reign follows his turn to the earth to end the age and therefore the earth cannot be destroyed at that time. It is not until after the thousand years that the earth is destroyed and a new heaven and new earth are created.

when O when will the dispensational nonsense end?

 

[louis]

when O when will the dispensational nonsense end?

I heard this brought up before, but I do not know what it means; what is dispensational?

 

[preacher4truth]

when O when will the dispensational nonsense end?

At the "pre-trib rapture?" LOL!!!!!!

 

[louis]

I heard this brought up before, but I do not know what it means; what is dispensational?

OK, I've looked it up and see that dispensational means a belief that the Lord will dispense certain attributes to different people at different times.
I can agree with this, but it also appears that there are many contradicting perspectives as to what will be dispensed and to who.

 

[shrume]

At the "pre-trib rapture?" LOL!!!!!!

Assuming you’re a Christian, yes. Then is when you will come to understand the difference between Israel and the Christian church.

 

[louis]

At the "pre-trib rapture?" LOL!!!!!!

What of all the current Christians throughout the world who are either being persecuted or killed; where's their pre-trib rapture?

 

[shrume]

What of all the current Christians throughout the world who are either being persecuted or killed; where's their pre-trib rapture?

There will only be one pre-trib rapture. Every Christian will participate, regardless of how much persecution they experienced in their lives.

 

[louis]

There will only be one pre-trib rapture. Every Christian will participate, regardless of how much persecution they experienced in their lives.

If someone experiences persecution/tribulation, even if they were then raptured, it would then be a post tribulation event.
I think you may be confusing the tribulation/travailing of the faithful with Gods wrath on the faithless.

 

[shrume]

If someone experiences persecution/tribulation, even if they were then raptured, it would then be a post tribulation event.

When I refer to the pre-trib rapture, I mean the rapture will precede the coming seven year period, Daniel’s 70th week, AKA the great tribulation.

I think you may be confusing the tribulation/travailing of the faithful with Gods wrath on the faithless.

No, I understand the difference. Christians frequently go through persecution and tribulation in life. The tribulation we go through is not the same as the coming “great tribulation”, which no Christian will go through.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If someone experiences persecution/tribulation, even if they were then raptured, it would then be a post tribulation event.
I think you may be confusing the tribulation/travailing of the faithful with Gods wrath on the faithless.[/QUOTE

Hi Louis,

The tribulation and persecution that Jesus said all believers would suffer, comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness, which has been taking place from the on-set of the church. The coming wrath of God however will be unprecedented and will be accomplished by God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is God's wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer. The church must be removed prior to the opening of the fist seal, which initiates Gods' wrath. Everyone that is upon the earth after the church has been removed will be exposed to God's wrath.