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In the Bible people were always immediately baptized when they accepted the gospel. I would even go as far as to say that it seems that their baptism was their physical expression of their repentance (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21). Also I know people who say that they were saved when they were baptized. This is not necessarily "heresy". We don't necessarily have to pinpoint the exact moment of regeneration, but anyway it's quite possible that some people "call on the Lord"/"repent" whatever at/through their baptism.
But having said that, to say that a peson is definitely not saved before they're baptized, is wrong.
There's the theif on the cross -- I know you'll say that's before Jesus' death/resurrection/pentecost/new-covenant/whatever.
But how about this:
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Clearly, they received the Holy Spirt before they were baptized. And this was after the cross/resurrection/Pentecost/etc.
And in my own case, I was clearly born again, in that I was totally changed by God -- set free from some bondage of sin that I myself never could break free of -- months before I was baptized. I know that I was born again at that point (months before I was bapitzed) -- when I "called on the name of Lord" from my living room, crying out to Him about my sin that I couldn't stop. Little did I know at the time, that I was actually repenting, and calling on Him, and that is why God changed me and regenerated me right then and there. Then I noticed over time that my particular bondage of sin had amazingly disappeared. Likewise I had a personal experience of "being filled with the Spirit", all before I was baptized. I should have been bapitzed immediately after I first called on the Lord about my sin, but I simply didn't know. When I was instructed to be baptized, I did it. But I know that I was born again long before.
So I would not say what you are saying Burch. It is wrong. But I would tell people to be baptized immediately upon truly believing in Jesus. I have pesonally baptized a number of Asian students, and I always encouraged them to do it as soon as possible. And we did -- in the local university swimming pool -- and it was great -- it made their committment and their new life more real to them, that hey something really happened (and the angels were having a party in heaven -- the baptism makes all that more reall and apparent to them).
But having said that, to say that a peson is definitely not saved before they're baptized, is wrong.
There's the theif on the cross -- I know you'll say that's before Jesus' death/resurrection/pentecost/new-covenant/whatever.
But how about this:
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Clearly, they received the Holy Spirt before they were baptized. And this was after the cross/resurrection/Pentecost/etc.
And in my own case, I was clearly born again, in that I was totally changed by God -- set free from some bondage of sin that I myself never could break free of -- months before I was baptized. I know that I was born again at that point (months before I was bapitzed) -- when I "called on the name of Lord" from my living room, crying out to Him about my sin that I couldn't stop. Little did I know at the time, that I was actually repenting, and calling on Him, and that is why God changed me and regenerated me right then and there. Then I noticed over time that my particular bondage of sin had amazingly disappeared. Likewise I had a personal experience of "being filled with the Spirit", all before I was baptized. I should have been bapitzed immediately after I first called on the Lord about my sin, but I simply didn't know. When I was instructed to be baptized, I did it. But I know that I was born again long before.
So I would not say what you are saying Burch. It is wrong. But I would tell people to be baptized immediately upon truly believing in Jesus. I have pesonally baptized a number of Asian students, and I always encouraged them to do it as soon as possible. And we did -- in the local university swimming pool -- and it was great -- it made their committment and their new life more real to them, that hey something really happened (and the angels were having a party in heaven -- the baptism makes all that more reall and apparent to them).
N
Well said, personally, when my children were born i had a dedication ceremony, ( in other words I thanked God for the gift he bestowed upon me with giving me these beautiful babies), now, as they got older, asked questions, about baptism, I wanted them to fully understand the commitment they were making and know what it meant. Even tho I myself had walked with God many years I wasnt baptised until I was 26. I actually gave my life to God fully at 19, even tho i wasnt baptised at that time, it didnt make me any less born again, like you I called out to God, asked him to change my life, committed my life to serving him, knew i was nothing without his saving grace, and havent regretted a single minute . So I agree, while its good to be baptised, and shows your commitment God loves you irregardless.
C
You can know every tadpole by name in every pond across the country and still not be saved. Baptism doesnt save you , it is an outward act of obedience *yes Jesus said to be baptised* showing an inward change BUT unless you are born again , of the heart ..that inward change ...you just went down a dry sinner and came up a wet one . Have a blessed day 
S
Christian baptism based on the Great Commission derives from the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ.
Jesus was not yet dead, buried, let alone resurrected. Jesus stated that he had power on earth to forgive.
The Thief was not eligible for Christian Baptism. But that does not mean that he had not been baptized under John's baptism. After all he understood an awful lot about Jesus being the Christ and about the Kingdom. He also apparently expected Jesus to be resurrected.
Jesus was not yet dead, buried, let alone resurrected. Jesus stated that he had power on earth to forgive.
The Thief was not eligible for Christian Baptism. But that does not mean that he had not been baptized under John's baptism. After all he understood an awful lot about Jesus being the Christ and about the Kingdom. He also apparently expected Jesus to be resurrected.
S
The Gospel contains Facts, Commands, and Promises
FACTS: Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection
COMMANDS: Repentance and Baptism
PROMISES: Forgiveness and Eternal Life
The gospel must be obeyed (Romans 10:16; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17)
Baptism is the only act of obedient faith that depicts a death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4)
FACTS: Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection
COMMANDS: Repentance and Baptism
PROMISES: Forgiveness and Eternal Life
The gospel must be obeyed (Romans 10:16; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17)
Baptism is the only act of obedient faith that depicts a death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4)
When an unbeliever is dead in trespasses and sins, alienated from the life of God and groping in the darkness of this world system, the only thing that unbeliever can do, when the light of the glorious gospel shines unto them, is BELIEVE IT! Nothing more, JUST BELIEVE. Believers repent of sin every day and never get victory over the sin. You know why? Because God wants them to receive His grace, which is the only thing that will keep them from continuing in sin. Repentance, without grace and the cross, will never stop believers from sin. Water baptism saves no one, never has and never will. Baptism is a simple commandment that the believer obeys by faith and from the heart, because they are a new creature in Christ and the old man and old things are passed away. If anyone makes water baptism part of God's salvation, which is by grace and through faith, they are adding works to grace and making grace no more grace (Rom 11:6).
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I like what RoboOp had to say. You know, back in the early church, there was no argument over whether baptism saves. They just baptised people as soon as they believed, or close enough to. It's just something that they did. If you did say baptism is not necessary, you most likely would have been excommunicated as a heretic. Seriously, how far Christianity has slipped away from the truths. As it is the last days and the falling away into un-sound doctrine, if there are 100 doctrines around today about this issue on baptism, you can guarantee that 99 of them are false and only 1 is true.
We know from scripture that it is the faith which justifies, not the corresponding actions which show that faith in obedience. God who knows the heart, really saves a person at that moment of belief. Yet, faith without works, i.e. a christian who does not want to get baptised, their faith is dead, and they have a problem.
In a way, baptism is necessary to show faith, which then leads to salvation. But if a believer dies who has not been baptised, due to their own innocence not purposefully, they certainly are not going to hell IMO. Is baptism really "necessary", to that I'd say no. But is it required...i.e. something we should do, that I'd say yes.
But why is everything about the issue of baptism only about "getting saved". In a selfish way, that's all we really care about. Just doing enough to get ourself in the door, so we can live a happy life on earth ever-after. Save ourself the trouble of getting immersed in water. What about obedience, what about following in the footsteps of the apostles and early church, what about being baptised because we love Jesus and want to do what He says we should do. Have you ever thought that there's more to baptism than just your selfish reasons of "getting saved". If you get baptised, and next week start stealing , don't suppose that the baptism has saved you. Like this one bible college from a certain denomination I will not name, they all believed that it is baptism which saves you, and if you are baptised you are on your way to heaven. But they were having sex with each other, unmarried fornicators , so called "bible believers", hypocrites. Are they on their way to heaven? I think not.The sadder thing is, that these will one day become pastors.
We know from scripture that it is the faith which justifies, not the corresponding actions which show that faith in obedience. God who knows the heart, really saves a person at that moment of belief. Yet, faith without works, i.e. a christian who does not want to get baptised, their faith is dead, and they have a problem.
In a way, baptism is necessary to show faith, which then leads to salvation. But if a believer dies who has not been baptised, due to their own innocence not purposefully, they certainly are not going to hell IMO. Is baptism really "necessary", to that I'd say no. But is it required...i.e. something we should do, that I'd say yes.
But why is everything about the issue of baptism only about "getting saved". In a selfish way, that's all we really care about. Just doing enough to get ourself in the door, so we can live a happy life on earth ever-after. Save ourself the trouble of getting immersed in water. What about obedience, what about following in the footsteps of the apostles and early church, what about being baptised because we love Jesus and want to do what He says we should do. Have you ever thought that there's more to baptism than just your selfish reasons of "getting saved". If you get baptised, and next week start stealing , don't suppose that the baptism has saved you. Like this one bible college from a certain denomination I will not name, they all believed that it is baptism which saves you, and if you are baptised you are on your way to heaven. But they were having sex with each other, unmarried fornicators , so called "bible believers", hypocrites. Are they on their way to heaven? I think not.The sadder thing is, that these will one day become pastors.
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D
I came across this while reading the book, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Srobel interviews a man named D.A. Carson whose expertise surpases most in theology. Here's what he said.
"Hell is not a place where people are cosigned because they were pretty good blokes but just didn't believe the right stuff. They're cosigned there, first and foremost, because they defy their Maker and want to be at the center of the universe. Hell is not filled with people who have repented, only God isn't gentle enough or good enough to let them out. It's filled with people who, for all eternity, still want to be at the center of the universe and who persist in their God-defying rebellion."
"Hell is not a place where people are cosigned because they were pretty good blokes but just didn't believe the right stuff. They're cosigned there, first and foremost, because they defy their Maker and want to be at the center of the universe. Hell is not filled with people who have repented, only God isn't gentle enough or good enough to let them out. It's filled with people who, for all eternity, still want to be at the center of the universe and who persist in their God-defying rebellion."
man, does no one ever take into account on this matter That Jesus and John the Baptist taught that John's Baptism was going to change :
Mt 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Ac 1:5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
and paul the Apostle to the gentile church taught this same teaching .
Ac 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,Ac 19:2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.Ac 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.Ac 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.Ac 19:5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Ac 19:6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
in the old testament it went from a fleshly circumcision, to the new testament a spiritual (heart) circumcision, with baptism it went from the fleshly baptism to the spiritual baptism, now before any go there speaking in tongues was not the only evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, they also prophesied in these scriptures.
Mt 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Ac 1:5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
and paul the Apostle to the gentile church taught this same teaching .
Ac 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,Ac 19:2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.Ac 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.Ac 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.Ac 19:5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Ac 19:6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
in the old testament it went from a fleshly circumcision, to the new testament a spiritual (heart) circumcision, with baptism it went from the fleshly baptism to the spiritual baptism, now before any go there speaking in tongues was not the only evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, they also prophesied in these scriptures.
What's this strange idea of "fleshly baptism" , ALL baptisms were spiritual, including water baptism. The same for the circumcision. That was in the flesh yes, but it always was a spiritual circumcision as well (Jer 9:26). Circumcision of heart is not something that just started in the New Testament. It was throughout the old testament as well.
D
Greetings to all,
Baptism is a subject that has been debated for many years now and is important.
This post is not direct at anyone in particular, I would just like to show a list of the teachings in the bible on Baptism, it is not an exhaustive list though.
1. 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Romans 6:4
2. 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;Ephesians 4:5
3. 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,1 Peter 3:21
4. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.Galatians 3:27
5. 3:5 Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.John 3:5
This is plenty for now but there are more scriptures on baptism if needed, I would also like to mention that in every scriptural account of people being saved they where also baptized, should we not follow the scriptural example as we are commanded to do.
May God bless
Macarius
Baptism is a subject that has been debated for many years now and is important.
This post is not direct at anyone in particular, I would just like to show a list of the teachings in the bible on Baptism, it is not an exhaustive list though.
1. 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Romans 6:4
2. 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;Ephesians 4:5
3. 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,1 Peter 3:21
4. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.Galatians 3:27
5. 3:5 Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.John 3:5
This is plenty for now but there are more scriptures on baptism if needed, I would also like to mention that in every scriptural account of people being saved they where also baptized, should we not follow the scriptural example as we are commanded to do.
May God bless
Macarius
1pe 3:21The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1co 7:19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
sorry snail, I try to break things down a little more so that it won't confuse you, it is a heart (spiritual) issue not a flesh issue that needs to be addressed with either baptism or circumcision., no strange idea, you can get circumcised or baptized all you want but unless you receive that new heart unless you receive the Spirit unless we walk in the newness of Christ. neither one will do you abit of good. and If we have the Spirit then we won't need any evidence of being saved. they will know us by our fruits.
Eph 5:8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:Eph 5:9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truthEph 5:10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.Eph 5:11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
now snail on a personal note I don't know if you caught my thread "an Apology " or not, but i know that the way you and I strive over His word can not be pleasing to God, I have apologized for my past practice in here and You are not dragging me back into that. Go ahead and see it your way, i hope you are right because I would rather see you make it in over me any how. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to die and have to face eternity without Christ, But for the record as I have stated in here before, I confess that the Christ Jesus has came in the flesh.
1jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.1jo 4:2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:1jo 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
and believe with all my heart the His love and His salvation is unconditional and without respect of persons, and That he promised me that He would never leave me nor forsake me.
1co 7:19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
sorry snail, I try to break things down a little more so that it won't confuse you, it is a heart (spiritual) issue not a flesh issue that needs to be addressed with either baptism or circumcision., no strange idea, you can get circumcised or baptized all you want but unless you receive that new heart unless you receive the Spirit unless we walk in the newness of Christ. neither one will do you abit of good. and If we have the Spirit then we won't need any evidence of being saved. they will know us by our fruits.
Eph 5:8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:Eph 5:9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.Eph 5:11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.now snail on a personal note I don't know if you caught my thread "an Apology " or not, but i know that the way you and I strive over His word can not be pleasing to God, I have apologized for my past practice in here and You are not dragging me back into that. Go ahead and see it your way, i hope you are right because I would rather see you make it in over me any how. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to die and have to face eternity without Christ, But for the record as I have stated in here before, I confess that the Christ Jesus has came in the flesh.
1jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.1jo 4:2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:1jo 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
and believe with all my heart the His love and His salvation is unconditional and without respect of persons, and That he promised me that He would never leave me nor forsake me.
Thankyou for clarifying, what you mean by fleshly baptism. The phrase was a bit confusing to me since fleshly to me implies carnal, how can a person be baptised carnally? baptised into sin? Anyway, I think I understand your point of view now.
Re: the personal note.
I had/have no intention of dragging you back into anything. I do apologise for any ill-intent you may have interpreted from my posts.
Re: the personal note.
I had/have no intention of dragging you back into anything. I do apologise for any ill-intent you may have interpreted from my posts.
We also see pre baptism regeneration in Acts 10
Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Here we see that these were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit even before their water baptism, not to mentioned the thief on the cross. Not to minimize the importance of baptism, but it is not what saves you. Faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is.
Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Here we see that these were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit even before their water baptism, not to mentioned the thief on the cross. Not to minimize the importance of baptism, but it is not what saves you. Faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is.
Well being a baptist I can tell you that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. It is a public statement that you want to follow Jesus.. that you do after salvation.
Baptism is also an ordinance that gives you membership to a body of believers.. again.. not a have to.. but what you do if you want to declare your commitment to God and be part of one of His churches.
There are numerous examples of people believing before being baptised.. and people without baptism who have believed. This is water baptism.. different from baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Water baptism.. is for an individual.. is after salvation
Baptism of the Holy Spirit.. happens to groups in the New Testament.. is not part of salvation either.. but is the Holy Spirit empowering a congregation of believers. Just read the NT every time it happens..
that's my 2 cents
Baptism is also an ordinance that gives you membership to a body of believers.. again.. not a have to.. but what you do if you want to declare your commitment to God and be part of one of His churches.
There are numerous examples of people believing before being baptised.. and people without baptism who have believed. This is water baptism.. different from baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Water baptism.. is for an individual.. is after salvation
Baptism of the Holy Spirit.. happens to groups in the New Testament.. is not part of salvation either.. but is the Holy Spirit empowering a congregation of believers. Just read the NT every time it happens..
that's my 2 cents
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