Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Apr 22, 2023

That shows you really didn't read what I posted. I'm not the one making that implication - YOU are.

I'm just going to repost the last paragraph of my previous post:

The Bible teaches that God will eventually fulfill the promise to give Israel full control over the Promised Land. Israel’s full territory will ultimately be ruled by the Messiah during the Millennium (Revelation 20:1–6). God’s promises, partly fulfilled throughout history, will have complete, literal, fulfillment prior to God’s creation of new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21—22; cf. Psalm 72:8).

You're already lost on all this since you hate Jews so much, but other Christians need to know this about God's ability to keep promises and how much He still loves His people, Israel.

To all of you Christians, this is important! His loving the Jews reflects His love for His gentile people, the Christians as well. How many times have we failed God and yet God continues to love us and reconcile us to Him? If God doesn't give up on Israel, that means God will not give up on us either!

❧

iamsoandso · Apr 22, 2023

cv5 said:

And John 5:43 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5-43.htm they rejected him and kept looking for a different Messiah and are still looking. As Jesus stated to them one will come in his own name(666) and they will receive him(man of sin),,build him a Temple and worship him as God. They (those who worship the image/Zionism) wont see him until they fulfill Luke 13:35 and Matthew 23:39 though as Jesus said. They have that remaining to do(receive the MoS,,,wise up,repent and confess Jesus) they have already fulfilled Revelation 13:14 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-14.htm when they healed the wound it received in ad70... All who worship it will fulfill this also https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/19-21.htm

HeIsHere · Apr 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Where did she state she hates Jews? Wow!

HeIsHere · Apr 22, 2023

Beckie said:

Agree 100%

Beckie · Apr 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

I was not going to bug you but this is just plain ugly and rude. So sorry that is what you think of me. That is just not so.

Beckie · Apr 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Psa 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

IDK what you mean by Revelation 21—22

Beckie · Apr 22, 2023

Judaism is antichrist, along with some other religions Notice i did not say Jews are , Judaism is the religion . This understanding comes from the Books of John .

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Beckie · Apr 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Here is a Passage copied from post # 280

Remember God fulfilled His Covenant i think means the same as keeping His promises
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

HeIsHere · Apr 23, 2023

ButterflyJones said:

I think @Beckie has already done a great job explaining why the state of present day Israel is not a fulfillment of prophecy.

It is a problem because truth matters.

cv5 · Apr 23, 2023

Beckie said:

You need to first understand the difference between a "royal grant covenant" and a "suzerain-vassal covenant" before making any unfounded assertions. Conflating the two distinct covenants is cause for confusion, faulty doctrine and mayhem.

Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties
Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties (gracelife.org)

"The purpose of this paper is to provide a brief overview of the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will evaluate the nature of each; specifically how each can be likened to the ancient near eastern (ANE) Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaties. I will provide stipulations of each covenant, the time aspect, and the promised rewards and/or consequences of disobedience of each. Before beginning though it will be helpful to define what a covenant is and then more specifically what a Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaty is; and then compare and contrast this with the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will conclude with the importance of each and how each of the covenants relates to the modern believer."

ThereRoseaLamb · Apr 23, 2023

HeIsHere said:

She's gonna whop me again... But she hasn't done a good job. (I just ducked) lol

I'm glad some of us can be friends and still discuss some hard things. We go back to the Abrahamic Covenant again. It cannot be explained away. Again, covenants were both conditional and unconditional. This was unconditional. Sharing the Scripture didn't work, so let's give some reasons why this covenant was unconditional.

1. In a blood covenant the two parties would agree on the terms of the covenant, with each committing himself to the fulfillment of certain promises being covenanted, and they would walk hand in hand through the animal sacrificed pieces. In this case, Abraham fell asleep( God put him into a deep sleep)... this makes Abraham a “recipient” and not a “participant”

2. “The Abrahamic Covenant is expressly declared to be eternal and therefore unconditional in numerous passages.

3.The Abrahamic Covenant is confirmed repeatedly…In none of these instances are any of the added promises conditioned…”

4. The promises of the covenant were given before the act of circumcision.

5.When the covenant is confirmed by the birth of Isaac and Jacob, the promises are repeated in their original form (Genesis 17:10; 23:12-13).

6. “The New Testament declares the Abrahamic Covenant immutable (Heb. 6:13-18; cf. Gen 15:8-21). It was not only promised but solemnly confirmed by the oath of God.”

Gen 12 Now mthe Lord said1 to Abram, “Go from your country2 and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 nAnd I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 oI will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and pin you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”3
15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.

The entire covenant says " I WILL" no where does it say " if you will". It was an unconditional covenant, and oath that God swore to uphold Himself.

Gen 15-18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, y“To your offspring I give3 this land, from zthe river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Genesis 17:7
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Ps. 105

He has remembered His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.
Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the portion of your inheritance,”

Gen 35

“Your name is Jacob;
You shall no longer be called Jacob,
But Israel shall be your name.”
Thus He called him Israel. God also said to him,
“I am God Almighty;
Be fruitful and multiply;
A nation and a company of nations shall come from you,
And kings shall come forth from you.
“The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac,
I will give it to you,
And I will give the land to your descendants after you.”

Joshua 1:2-6

Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory.
No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you. Be strong and courageous, for you shall give this people possession of the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

1 Chronicles 16:15-18
Remember His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.
He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,

Ezekiel 37:21-25
Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.
“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever.

Hebrews 11:8-10
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Ok I see Sister Beckie comin' with the broom for me. Gonna scoot before she gets me.

ThereRoseaLamb · Apr 23, 2023

Beckie said:

But we looked at the map and they have not yet possessed all the land. So we know the Word is true. God will give them all the land He promised to a thousand generations. Just because He hasn't done so yet doesn't mean He won't keep ALL of His promise. Either that or God cannot be trusted.

iamsoandso · Apr 23, 2023

Just curious but in Genesis 12, those decedents of Abraham do they include "Ishmael, Zimran,Jocshan,Medan,Midian,Ishbak and Shuah(Abrahams other children) or just Isaac?

Beckie · Apr 23, 2023

iamsoandso said:

Gen_17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Some times we label things and that causes confusion. Other time labeling gives understand as to the topic.

Nehemiah6 · Apr 23, 2023

iamsoandso said:

It was Isaac who was "the son of promise". Just ignore all the others. So what do we have?

Adam---Seth---Noah---Shem---Eber---Abraham --- Isaac -- Jacob --- Judah---David --- Christ

iamsoandso · Apr 23, 2023

Beckie said:

I'm meaning Genesis 12:7 in specific "the land" https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 12&version=KJV is the promise to all of Abraham's children or just one?

iamsoandso · Apr 23, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Your referring to the everlasting kingdom in Daniel 7:27 or the land in Genesis 12? https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-27.htm It seems that in Joshua 1:2-6 Joshua is referring to all of those who descended from Abraham while Daniel 7 is speaking of an whole other everlasting kingdom.

cv5 · Apr 23, 2023

ThereRoseaLamb said:

She's gonna whop me again... But she hasn't done a good job. (I just ducked) lol

I'm glad some of us can be friends and still discuss some hard things. We go back to the Abrahamic Covenant again. It cannot be explained away. Again, covenants were both conditional and unconditional. This was unconditional. Sharing the Scripture didn't work, so let's give some reasons why this covenant was unconditional.

1. In a blood covenant the two parties would agree on the terms of the covenant, with each committing himself to the fulfillment of certain promises being covenanted, and they would walk hand in hand through the animal sacrificed pieces. In this case, Abraham fell asleep( God put him into a deep sleep)... this makes Abraham a “recipient” and not a “participant”

2. “The Abrahamic Covenant is expressly declared to be eternal and therefore unconditional in numerous passages.

3.The Abrahamic Covenant is confirmed repeatedly…In none of these instances are any of the added promises conditioned…”

4. The promises of the covenant were given before the act of circumcision.

5.When the covenant is confirmed by the birth of Isaac and Jacob, the promises are repeated in their original form (Genesis 17:10; 23:12-13).

6. “The New Testament declares the Abrahamic Covenant immutable (Heb. 6:13-18; cf. Gen 15:8-21). It was not only promised but solemnly confirmed by the oath of God.”

Gen 12 Now mthe Lord said1 to Abram, “Go from your country2 and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 nAnd I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 oI will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and pin you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”3
15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.

The entire covenant says " I WILL" no where does it say " if you will". It was an unconditional covenant, and oath that God swore to uphold Himself.

Gen 15-18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, y“To your offspring I give3 this land, from zthe river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Genesis 17:7
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Ps. 105

He has remembered His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.
Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the portion of your inheritance,”

Gen 35

“Your name is Jacob;
You shall no longer be called Jacob,
But Israel shall be your name.”
Thus He called him Israel. God also said to him,
“I am God Almighty;
Be fruitful and multiply;
A nation and a company of nations shall come from you,
And kings shall come forth from you.
“The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac,
I will give it to you,
And I will give the land to your descendants after you.”

Joshua 1:2-6

Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory.
No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you. Be strong and courageous, for you shall give this people possession of the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

1 Chronicles 16:15-18
Remember His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.
He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,

Ezekiel 37:21-25
Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.
“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever.

Hebrews 11:8-10
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Ok I see Sister Beckie comin' with the broom for me. Gonna scoot before she gets me.

"He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,"

The very night before entering into Egypt. Which started the clock ticking for the 430 years sojourn to the very day.

Gen 46:1
And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac.
Gen 46:2
And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.
Gen 46:3
And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:
Gen 46:4
I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up again: and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes.

cv5 · Apr 23, 2023

iamsoandso said:

Triple redundancy bro. You can't ask for more than that.

Gen 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:16
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Beckie · Apr 23, 2023

iamsoandso said:

Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

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