Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,367
2,913
113
#21
Please share scripture indicating the need for water baptism ceased.
The keywords are REQUIRE and NEED. I agree that it is good and important, just like Holy Communion. But I think we all know that the thief on the cross is not going to go to hell just because he didn't get dunked in the lake.

Matthew 22
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#22
One thing I recommend before trying to declare whether baptism is a necessity or not, is to look at what the Bible says it does and is for. Then it might be a little more obvious.

For one example... Acts 2:38 says that baptism in Jesus name is for the remission (washing away) of sins. Is Remission of sins a necessity? ( I think so)

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,726
9,430
113
54
#23
One thing I recommend before trying to declare whether baptism is a necessity or not, is to look at what the Bible says it does and is for. Then it might be a little more obvious.

For one example... Acts 2:38 says that baptism in Jesus name is for the remission (washing away) of sins. Is Remission of sins a necessity? ( I think so)

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* (y)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,367
2,913
113
#24
One thing I recommend before trying to declare whether baptism is a necessity or not, is to look at what the Bible says it does and is for. Then it might be a little more obvious.

For one example... Acts 2:38 says that baptism in Jesus name is for the remission (washing away) of sins. Is Remission of sins a necessity? ( I think so)

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Sorry, my dumb:( I thought the title of this thread narrowed things down to WATER baptism.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,871
500
113
#25
Sorry, my dumb:( I thought the title of this thread narrowed things down to WATER baptism.
The thread is about water baptism.

Acts 2:38 expresses the need of water baptism for the remission of sin and receiving the Holy Spirit; water baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the gift, which is the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The need for water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost is evidenced by the following scriptures:
Acts 2:1, 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6.

Also, Ananias told Paul to submit to water baptism in order for his sins to be washed away. (Acts 22:16)

Acts 22:16 teaches not WHAT washes away sin; that's Jesus' blood, but WHEN one's sins are washed away. (water baptism)
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#26
Sorry, my dumb:( I thought the title of this thread narrowed things down to WATER baptism.
Water baptism is what we're talking about.

The baptism that Jesus sent his disciples to do was water baptism. That's the kind Peter was telling them to submit to for remission of sins. (Physical baptism. Born of water. )

"Whose soever sins ye remit (wash away), they are remitted unto them ..and whose soever sins ye retain (don't remit) , they are retained".

Water baptism is directly tied to remission of sins.


Also, water baptism can happen before or after receiving the Holy Ghost. (Which poses a problem for those suggesting that the Holy Ghost comes at moment of belief and baptism comes after.)


Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,726
9,430
113
54
#27
Water baptism is what we're talking about.

The baptism that Jesus sent his disciples to do was water baptism. That's the kind Peter was telling them to submit to for remission of sins. (Physical baptism. Born of water.)
In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. *The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted

Water baptism is directly tied to remission of sins.
In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water for repentance.. (NASB) Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? (which makes no sense at all) or was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? The answer is obvious. Water baptism does not obtain repentance or the remission of sins, but is done "in regards to/on the basis of" remission of sins received upon repentance.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." *This was prior to receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).

*So once again, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* (y)
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#28
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* (y)
Hi Mailmandan,
I read this post earlier and wanted to reply but oyster67's was easier to address with the time I had available.

What impresses me about your posts is that you recognize that Baptism and Repentance are linked.

I might suggest your explanation of the link is somewhat flawed or incomplete...BUT you recognize and express the connection where others seem to totally miss it.

Only a day or so ago did I really begin to appreciate and realize the need to explore and be able toverbalize that connection. That's why I didn't reply to your post when I first read it right before I went to bed last night. You hit on a major vein of importance that deserves more than a generalized answer. I'm heading to work now but i have time for this much....

Baptism is very much tied to repentance, and vice-versa.

(I wish my phone would let me put that sentence in bold ) And I want to take time to explore it thoroughly.

Hopefully I'll get back to you in a few hours.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,367
2,913
113
#29
Only through the Blood.

John 14
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Your sacramental shananagans cannot save you, Kelby.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#30
Only through the Blood.

John 14
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Your sacramental shananagans cannot save you, Kelby.
Who established water baptism? God or man?
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#31
Hi Dan,
I guess I'll start by addressing the points as they show up paragraph by paragraph. and I'll address each as their own post for easier replies.
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
FIRSTLY: I might ask which bible version you are using. The KJV puts "Repent, " first, then separates "and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," between commas (which have the same function as parentheses), and concludes with the promise "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This may sound trivial, but you'll need to designate a specific new location with your claim that the commas need to be moved... otherwise you might be claiming we're not supposed to be baptized in the name of Jesus (if that portion also applies ONLY to the first part of "Repent" And we both know the bible later tells us to do ALL in the name of Jesus.)

SECONDLY: Have you considered that the word "Repent" in the new testament means to THINK differently. Repentance is about changing the loyalties. Whereas Baptism has to do with death... which is a severing or separating of one thing from the other. (<--See Romans 6:3-5 to verify that statement)

Repentance was available in the OT, but there wasn't remission (true separation) without the shedding of the Lamb of God's blood. (which is why Baptism is an effective thing in the NEW covenant).

Please not that baptism (not repentance) is the similitude(likeness) of his DEATH given to us in order for us to be partakers of his death. Jesus couldn't be free from the burden of sins without going down into death. And we can't be free from our sins without going down into the likeness of his death, in his name. (1Peter 3:21)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#32
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
I have no problem with the idea that Baptism comes either before or after receiving the Holy Ghost. Like Peter, if I see someone receive the Holy Ghost (which was evidence by the fact that they started speaking in tongues) I, too, tell them they need to be baptized.


Water baptism does one thing. Spirit baptism does something different. One is not a substitute for the other.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#33
Please not that baptism (not repentance) is the similitude(likeness) of his DEATH given to us in order for us to be partakers of his death. Jesus couldn't be free from the burden of sins without going down into death. And we can't be free from our sins without going down into the likeness of his death, in his name. (1Peter 3:21)
oops... That should have said "Please note that baptism (not repentance) is the similitude(likeness) of his DEATH..."
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#34
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.
Why do people read the word SHALL as if it means "already has"? Shall is a future tense word...or used in commandment.

Consider this....People that don't believe they need to be baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins don't GET baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins. Jesus said that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...he that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is the remission part of that statement (again, baptism is for remission of sins)

Have you ever considered the fact that Jesus told his disciples that THEY are the ones doing the remitting? NOT that the person remits their own sins by either repentance or belief... but that they shall RECEIVE remission. The people shall submit to the washing established by God(not man) or they, like Peter when he at first refused to allow Jesus to wash his feet, shall remain at great risk.

It is free. It is written. yet people reject it.

........

I'll continue to address your posts tomorrow...

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,726
9,430
113
54
#35
Hi Dan,
I guess I'll start by addressing the points as they show up paragraph by paragraph. and I'll address each as their own post for easier replies.
Just out of curiosity, where do you attend church? Oneness Pentecostal or church of Christ perhaps?

: I might ask which bible version you are using. The KJV puts "Repent, " first, then separates "and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," between commas (which have the same function as parentheses), and concludes with the promise "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This may sound trivial, but you'll need to designate a specific new location with your claim that the commas need to be moved... otherwise you might be claiming we're not supposed to be baptized in the name of Jesus (if that portion also applies ONLY to the first part of "Repent" And we both know the bible later tells us to do ALL in the name of Jesus.)
Regardless of which translation, the structure of Acts 2:38 illustrates that the command to be baptized is parenthetical and is not syntactically connected to remission of sins. When Peter commanded the people to repent, he was speaking to the crowd. Then the command to be baptized was directed to each individual. In the "remission of your sins" phrase, Peter again directed his words to the crowd collectively.

As Greek scholar A. T. Robertson points out - “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. "My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.” (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: It is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol (although only the reality remits sins). In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

SECONDLY:
Have you considered that the word "Repent" in the new testament means to THINK differently. Repentance is about changing the loyalties. Whereas Baptism has to do with death... which is a severing or separating of one thing from the other. (<--See Romans 6:3-5 to verify that statement) Repentance was available in the OT, but there wasn't remission (true separation) without the shedding of the Lamb of God's blood. (which is why Baptism is an effective thing in the NEW covenant).
The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. So we change our mind when we repent and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin in obtaining salvation. In regards to water baptism and Romans 6:3-5, being buried and raised with Christ is the picture, but not the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Please not that baptism (not repentance) is the similitude (likeness) of his DEATH given to us in order for us to be partakers of his death. Jesus couldn't be free from the burden of sins without going down into death. And we can't be free from our sins without going down into the likeness of his death, in his name. (1Peter 3:21)
Jesus freed us from our sins and provided for us eternal life through His death, burial and resurrection. Being united in the likeness of His death and resurrection is pictured, but not procured in the waters of baptism. Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,726
9,430
113
54
#36
Why do people read the word SHALL as if it means "already has"? Shall is a future tense word...or used in commandment.
The future which immediately follows "BELIEVES IN HIM." (Acts 10:43)

Consider this....People that don't believe they need to be baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins don't GET baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins.
You sound like a Oneness Pentecostal.

Jesus said that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...he that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is the remission part of that statement
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(again, baptism is for remission of sins)
Water baptism is for (in regards to/on the basis of) remission of sins received upon repentance/faith.

Have you ever considered the fact that Jesus told his disciples that THEY are the ones doing the remitting?
NOT that the person remits their own sins by either repentance or belief... but that they shall RECEIVE remission. The people shall submit to the washing established by God (not man) or they, like Peter when he at first refused to allow Jesus to wash his feet, shall remain at great risk.
If you were standing at the gates of heaven and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Exactly what are you trusting in for salvation? Jesus Christ ALONE? (that is my answer) or Jesus Christ + baptism and other works?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,726
9,430
113
54
#37

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,871
500
113
#38
Have you ever considered the fact that Jesus told his disciples that THEY are the ones doing the remitting? NOT that the person remits their own sins by either repentance or belief... but that they shall RECEIVE remission. The people shall submit to the washing established by God(not man) or they, like Peter when he at first refused to allow Jesus to wash his feet, shall remain at great risk.

It is free. It is written. yet people reject it.

........

I'll continue to address your posts tomorrow...

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Thank you very much for sharing! Yet another great confirmation of God's truth concerning when one's sins are remitted.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,367
2,913
113
#39
Who established water baptism? God or man?
That is not the title of this thread. Are you going to attempt another bait and switch maneuver? Until you can get a better grasp on what the sacraments are really for and about, they will profit you nothing.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,061
438
83
#40
That is not the title of this thread. Are you going to attempt another bait and switch maneuver? Until you can get a better grasp on what the sacraments are really for and about, they will profit you nothing.
I wasn't attempting a bait and switch. I was addressing your use of the word shenanigans.

If man created and established Baptism, then "shenanigans" seems appropriate.

But if it was God that established it, sent John the Baptist to establish its use, and had Jesus incorporate it's use in his ministry and to command his disciples to continue its use, and recorded that they continue it's use even after the Holy Ghost is given...then "shenanigans" doesn't seem appropriate.