's' no such thing as human freewill

Bless you, my thread is pretty plainly titled. Predestination is a good old bible word, I didn't learn it from Calvin and I do not believe it as Calvin believed it.

I believe it like Paul believed it.

Say aren't you glad that God pre-planned your life?

Hello Joe, thanks, I LOVE that circular word of Jesus " the first will be last and the last first" brilliant. the future for the Jews is glorious. I certainly believe they will reign on earth with Christ and the rest of mankind can come in.

I do not believe [alas] in universal salvation. I believe in a much WIDER MERCY than is generally taught or believed in by evangelicalism, never-the-less there are some wicked men and women in this world and these will depart into eternal punishment.

Dear Evmur,
Since you believe that mankind does not have the "free will" to save themselves, why do you believe that Christ cannot save them? Paul said of himself that he was the "chief of sinners". If Paul can be saved, being the worst sinner who has ever lived, then why do you believe Christ won't be able to save everyone else?

Also, if Christ cannot save all mankind, then a great portion of scripture is a lie and not only that, Christ would be a sinner. After all, sin is "missing the mark" and the mark the Father set for Christ is to save the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Since all mankind has died in Adam and that same "all" will be made alive "in Christ", who can that leave out?

Christ has a glorious and wonderful plan to accomplish this great work of saving mankind but it is hidden in scripture by the spiritual language in which scripture is written.

If you would like to discuss this more or have any questions, I would be happy to continue with you on this subject.

Joe

1. True Evmur It was The Holy Spirit who drew me to Jesus. 2. I always saw Jesus statement “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me”. As the Lord referring to His death as a substitute for all men . Not as some would like it and some would not. Not all will respond to the ministry of the Holy Spirit but the Christ died for the sins of the “whole world”.

Also on the authority of Gods Word I can assure you that God can be both sovereign and desire freewill at the same time. Matter of factly that is exactly why you are accountable for what you teach. You won’t be able to say God or the devil made me do it . 1. God created man in His own image. With a freewill 2. Mans heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps. 3. "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes. “ All we like sheep have gone astray we have turned every one to His own way. “ 4. Out of the heart of men proceed. If you never got off your knees it would be hard for you to walk downtown to play poker. ( I am amazed literally at the idea that someone who says they are Christs can also say that freewill is an affront to God. Rebellion is an affront to God. Freewill is Gods own image.

God created man in His own image that's good, that's bible with a freewill is not bible ... I think there are about three places in the whole bible which speaks about freewill in relation to man, none whatever in the NT. The three or so mentions on the OT are in relation to freewill offerings. This is because God does not demand we give back something He has given us.

God said to the man "of every tree in the garden thou mayest freely eat but of the tree at the centre thou shalt not eat of it for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die."

This is the law of God ... man was created for a purpose.

Now man was created in the image of God but you and I are not born in the image of God. God's image was marred and it is that which was God's image, our spirit which died, we have been spiritually dead since the day Adam partook of that tree and we are born, not in God's image but in Adam's image. Adam had the ability to choose, we do not have the ability to choose.

After he disobeyed he no longer had freewill ... if he had he would have stayed in the garden but God drave him out of it and set an angel to guard the way back. Instead he was put under heavy bondage.

Hi Joe Jesus can indeed save mankind ... He saved me. God will have all men to be saved, God never willed for any man to ever be lost. That is God's will ... sadly it is not every man's will to be saved. The Light has come into the world, the Light which lighteth every man but men preferred darkness to the Light because their deeds were evil.

I am not a hell-fire preacher, I like to preach the GOOD NEWS. Anyone who preaches the good news soon learns that while some are attracted and saved the most people are indifferent and some there are who loathe and detest it. It's just that way.

You think everyone is like YOU, inwardly but everybody is not like you. You do not see the inner man to know what is there.

When folks looked at the Pharisees, Christ's mortal foes, they saw doves for that was their outer appearance. But Christ saw vipers. The people saw sheep but Christ saw wolves.

You have to learn to trust God's judgement, He sees what you do not see. Nobody understands fully, we understand in part. But God does know and He has told us.

He must reign [your quote,] until He has put His enemies under His feet. God has enemies, He is not the enemy, they are the enemy.

They hate God.

All I can do is lead you to authority of the Word of God . You believe the scripture or you do not. On you Evmur. The scripture is there to show you the truth. You have a freewill. Not even a point of debate with me, I'll go with Gods Word.

All I can do is lead you to authority of the Word of God . You believe the scripture or you do not. On you Evmur. The scripture is there to show you the truth. You have a freewill. Not even a point of debate with me, I'll go with Gods Word.

The bible nowhere says God gave man freewill. Paul says before Christ set you free you were in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe. A slave to sin, sin making you obey it's passion.

Nor do you have freewill in regard to life itself ... God may call you into His presence at any time.

Well yes it does, in the scriptures I mentioned previously. With regard to man having a freewill I am referring to a non-robotic power to choose. Not the power of life and death . Paul said the good that he wanted to do he did not . His choice was to do good that was free will sin nature worked to effect a different result. As far as the power of life and death that is Gods providence. Psalm 22 : "All that go down to the dust shall bow before him and none can keep alive his own soul. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart is in the Old Testament. God does not do that trusting for you . Yet He is sovereign and will direct your paths when you do so.

Well yes it does, in the scriptures I mentioned previously. With regard to man having a freewill I am referring to a non-robotic power to choose. Not the power of life and death . Paul said the good that he wanted to do he did not . His choice was to do good that was free will sin nature worked to effect a different result. As far as the power of life and death that is Gods providence. Psalm 22 : "All that go down to the dust shall bow before him and none can keep alive his own soul. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart is in the Old Testament. God does not do that trusting for you . Yet He is sovereign and will direct your paths when you do so.

I am not a robot, what I have is an inner life, it is the life of Christ. HE is obedient to the Father's will, not my "own free will"

Paul sets out my position perfectly. the good that he wanted to do he did not, the evil he did not want to do is what he did. He had a will but it was not free, it was bound.

The life that I now I live by the faith of Jesus Christ who loved me and gave Himself for me. So He DOES do that trusting for us, I live by His faith.

Death is not just turning your toes up and croaking, it actually governs our life. We set our alarm clocks so that we do not oversleep, if we oversleep we will lose our job, if we lose our job we will lose our home and starve.

Before Jesus came we were without God and without hope in this world and we did not choose Him, He chose us and ordained us that we might bear fruit.

We had to lay aside our old lives, our own will in order to receive Jesus as our Lord.

don't go back to your old self, your old will. That is exactly what what freewill doctrine is and it is exactly what 90 % of christians do because 90% of christians believe the doctrine of freewill. THAT in a nutshell is why the church is backslidden.

Nobody will lose their salvation, that is secure.

What we are exhorted and encouraged to do is
present our very selves to Him a living sacrifice .... that we might find that good and perfect will of God.

The bible speaks a great deal about God's will and ZERO about man's "freewill"

Choice is not freewill

YOU did not create the options nor can you choose a different option to the ones put before you. You do not even have the freewill to not choose, you must choose.

... but if God does not give you the option you have no choice at all. You are without God and without hope in the world.

Praise God for His glorious grace and mercy, He of His own sovereign will has sent Jesus to set us FREE.

... will be back later ... God willing.

I suppose we would have to be more specific as to what freewill we are discussing. Or what freewill is altogether. Here is a definition I looked up from an online dictionary.
adjective
made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary:a freewill contribution to a political fund.of or relating to the metaphysical doctrine of the freedom of the will:the freewill controversy.

You have an inner
OK Christ in You the hope of Glory congrats..also God works in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. Christ is empowering you to do His will ok ...But you were in the poker room playing Texas Hold'em . Was that because you did not have a freewill. ?

Dear Evmur,
I have never met anyone who rightfully believes that mankind does not have a "free will" but then still believes that Christ cannot save 100% of mankind.

All mankind is spiritually the same. We are all descendants of Adam and Eve and are spiritually marred and subject to vanity. No one in their created condition can boast of being better than anyone else. You seem to believe that some people are better - that they are less evil, or smarter, or wiser than others. And for that reason, Christ has the power to save them. But those who commit the worse of evil are too far gone to be saved and are beyond His ability to help them. But I assure you by the authority of God's Word, no one is too sinful or spiritually marred for Christ's blood to be rendered ineffective. His blood can just as easily cover the darkest of sins just as it can cover the most minor of sins. And as for Christ being able to "prepare their hearts and give them the answer of their tongue", their evil nature and their "will" cannot stop Him. Mankind's "will" is "nothing" when matched up to the power of God (Dan 4:35).

However, in this age, Christ is only saving those He has chosen from the foundation of the world (the First Fruits). Don't assume those who have died in their sins are not going to be saved later. They will be, but they simply were not chosen to be a part of the early harvest of mankind. They will be harvested at the end of the growing season, the end of the final age. These TWO harvest events are "typed" by the Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Tabernacles. Read what Christ "typed" for us when He attended the Feast of Tabernacles:

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jesus attended the feast in "secret", meaning that this event is hidden in scripture from those who do not have "eyes that can see". But nevertheless, this event at the end of the harvest season (end of the ages) will come to pass and all mankind will then be saved.

For those chosen to be First Fruits, scripture says the "ends of the ages" when mankind is saved, that time has come (and is coming) upon them now:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

In other words, the Elect's (First Fruits) "days shall be shortened":

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the Elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

God is not a respecter of persons because no man is any better than anyone else. He does the choosing and He did not choose any of us because He knew who would accept Him and who would not. That belief is completely without scriptural support and it negates the power and love of God to accomplish His "will" within mankind. But for the time being, God is causing evil to flourish in most of mankind so most will reject Him. Paul said this about himself:

Acts 28:17 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

In God's eyes, the worst sin a man can commit is the sin of believing that they can be acceptable by their own "works". For that reason, Paul considered himself to be "chief" of sinners. This sin that Paul was committing is the only sin that leads to death after an unbeliever is called out from the world and has received the Early Rain of the Spirit. Salvation comes only by "faith" and not by "works". The ways of Satan (ways of this world) teach that there is something good within mankind - good enough for some to make a "free will" decision to seek out and accept Christ as their Savior. Believing this lie is how Satan "kills" the saints:

2Thes 2:11-14 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned (the sin that leads to death) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God sends the "strong delusion" by the spirit of anti-Christ (Mat 12:43-45) to those who have "pleasure in unrighteous" (all Early Rain Christians). This causes us to "fall away". The "pleasure of unrighteous" is our fifthly rags. These "rags" is our belief in "free will" which teaches us that we are worthy of salvation because we made the right "choice" to accept Christ. We believe we are somehow less evil, or smarter or wiser than those who reject Christ. With this sin, we are trying to serve to masters: Christ and Satan (faith and works, respectively). This sin will leave us desolate (the Abomination of Desolation, Mat 24:15).

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Once we receive an earnest amount of the Holy Spirt (Early Rain), we become the temple of God. But because of Satan's deceptions, we become a "Man of Sin". We have believed the "lie". For those who are chosen though, the Man of Sin whom they have become will be revealed to them. This event equates to seeing the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (the temple who is the believer). This event happens at the return of Christ for His bride (the Latter Rain). Those who have been "chosen" and who have been given the extra flask of Oil (Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit) will "flee into the mountains" and will not "turn back" as Lot's wife did (Luke 17:32). But for those who are not chosen and do not have the extra Oil, they will "turn back" as the Five Foolish Virgins did.

Evmur, can you now "see" the plan of salvation that Christ has for each and every person who has ever lived?

Mankind's salvation is 100% the work and responsibility of Christ. If He fails to save even one person, He will have failed to accomplish the mission the Father gave Him and this would be a sin:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Do you have enough faith in Christ to believe that He can accomplish all the work that the Father gave Him?

Joe

Dear Evmur,
Here is one other verse I forgot to present:

Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Christ was speaking to the chief priests and elders who were the ones who crucified Him. Christ could have very easily said to them that they were going to be eternally tormented in "hell" but He did not. The reason He didn't is because that statement would not be true. Mankind's salvation is 100% certain because it is the work of Christ to save us and He cannot fail. Only the timing of our salvation can vary. In this case, tax collectors and harlots will be saved before the chief priests and elders are. But nevertheless, they will be saved.

Joe

I suppose we would have to be more specific as to what freewill we are discussing. Or what freewill is altogether. Here is a definition I looked up from an online dictionary.
adjective
made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary:a freewill contribution to a political fund.of or relating to the metaphysical doctrine of the freedom of the will:the freewill controversy. Seems like you are going to the hands- on salvation ascribed to the typical Calvinist faith. Namely salvation by election is this where you are going ? Mans will is bound or Man is unable to respond to the gospel so in his inability God must do everything. Is that where you are going Emur ? Just another segway into Calvinism namely through a topic that there is no such thing as freewill ? What do you mean by there is no such thing as freewill. As far as I know to your above comment . "
(YOU did not create the options nor can you choose a different option to the ones put before you. You do not even have the freewill to not choose, you must choose.

... but if God does not give you the option you have no choice at all. You are without God and without hope in the world.” )( unquote ) I think the Bible is pretty clear God has no other methodology of saving a lost person other than the gospel and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says , “ some believed and some believed not “. I look forward to you being more specific and open as to what exactly you consider freewill to be or not to be. "