Hi,
I have to disagree with you, if you look at the history of Pentecostalism, its recent and not theological sound it’s filled with error and really, really bad theology. If you’re not willing to do the hard work and take a serious look at it then we have nothing to discuss and I am ok with that too.
I have to disagree with you, if you look at the history of Pentecostalism, its recent and not theological sound it’s filled with error and really, really bad theology. If you’re not willing to do the hard work and take a serious look at it then we have nothing to discuss and I am ok with that too.
If you are Reformed, you will probably consider Pentecostal theology not to be 'theologically sound' since it has not historically been Reformed.
Cessationism is not theologically sound. It contradicts scripture. That's the real issue, what scripture teaches. You are getting sidetracked by focusing on Pentecostal history, since that is not the real issue. I suspect you have read a selective presentation of Pentecostal history. If you read about slanders or accusations against ministers, conflicts between people, or individual's sins, you may come away with that perspective. But if you read about individuals who poured out their lives for the Gospel, miracles and healings, and large numbers of people won for Christ, you may have another perspective.
The Bible says test the spirits so the first thing you need to figure out was it bad pizza the night before, false guilt or just a crazy hunch, or your emotions. I think you asked and answered your own question and audible voice is different from a nudging.
Rejecting all dreams is not testing the spirits. That disbodience to the command, just as accepting all dreams as being from God would be.
God’s word tells us just the opposite that scripture is sufficient, the cannon is closed and we see that the gifts had stopped as Paul couldn’t heal Timothy’s stomach issues and there was another he couldn’t heal.
Maybe some cessationists suffer from a form of theological dylexia that causes them to mix up words when they read the passage.
Scripture enables the man of God to be fully equipped. But it is clearly not all a man needs to be fully equipped. one also needs the things the Bible teaches about-- like having the Holy Spirit for example. If one has scripture, but not faith, he is not fully equipped.
If a man in a white suit could heal, then MR Hin is a monster for not going to the hospital and doing s
o he would also have no need for glasses.
o he would also have no need for glasses.
Jesus healed one person at the pool who was waiting for the water to stir, instead of healing all of them. Would you call Him a monster?
The issue is whether the Bible teaches that God gives gifts to the church, not Benny Hinn.
You can go one step further and look at history and see no mention of it either until the 19th century.
There is a lot of evidence for healing, miracles, prophecy, and other spiritual gifts after the first century. There is also a fair amount of evidence for speaking in tongues, not an overwhelming amount when compared to prophecy.
It's strange to me to read authors who condemn modern spiritual gifts as Montanism or who quote Benjamin Warfield, and yet claim there were no spiritual gifts after the first century. If you actually read historical criticisms of Montanism, for example in Eusebius' History of Church, the second-century opponents of Montanism clearly endorse the contemporary use of prophecy in the church, and argue that what Montanus had was not the real thing. Eusebius even refers to a debate between a member of the church and a Montanist after Montanus had died. The member of the church argued that Montanus prophecy had died out, while the apostle argued that prophecy would continue until the Lord returned. Cessationism is the new doctrine, not the historical doctrine of the church.
Ireneaus wrote of brethren prophesying, having foreknowledge, speaking in tongues, casting out demons and raising the dead in his own day. B.B. Warfield tried to argue that Ireneaus may have assumed these things were still continuing because when he was young, some of the folks whom the apostles had laid hands on may have still been doing these things, and he may have heard of it. Those who refer to Warfield to support cessationism should at least look up the histories he refers to. Warfield came up with a lame reason (that contradicts Acts) to support a theory that gifts died out after those the apostles laid their hands on died out.
Then there is the reason why it started in the first place was to verify the ministry of the apostles and Christ after that there was no need for it.
This theory also ignores I Corinthians 12, which shows the working of miracles among gifts given to individuals in the body as the Spirit wills in order to profit withal. Then Paul talks about members of the body ministering to one another. So spiritual gifts are also given to build up the body.
Some of the cessationists are dispensationalists and see the two witnesses, who prophesy and work miracles, as yet in the future. There is no justification for saying the gifts ceased but will be restarted again in the future.
Regarding healing Timothy's stomach, it's a weak argument. Belief in healing doesn't mean we don't take some practical precautions for our health. But if you study carefully, Paul likely had an eye illness that led him to the Galatians, probably before the Jerusalem council. Galatians is probably Paul's first epistle. If you go with a later date, he went to Galatia at least by Acts 16. His illness led him to first go to Galatia, so that's still early by comparison.
So Paul, already a miracle worker, had some kind of infirmity BEFORE all those great miracles in Ephesus and other cities. And late in Acts, Paul healed all the sick brought to him on Malta. There is no good reason to assume healing gradually faded away. Paul had an infirmity early on. Timothy had to be concerned with his health later in the century. If the prescense of illness proved cessationism, why would Paul have had an infirmity early on.
By the time Timothy was written the gifts had already ceased.
If all scripture is given that the man of God may be fully equipped, that doesn't mean that all the man of God needs to be fully equipped is scripture.
I think you are putting 'all' in the wrong place in the verse. It's a matter of logic. The passage does not say that scripture is all that is given that a man may be fully equipped.
And it's pretzel logic to say we don't need the things the Bible says we need because we have the Bible.
Keep in mind Timothy probably did not have most of the New Testament. Some parts were written in regions far away.
If the Bible minus the book of Revelation made Timothy fully equipped, why do you accept the book of Revelation as inspired?
That strikes me as pretzel logic, and an argument from silence, fully equipped means fully equipped. If you need something other to complete a task you’re not fully equipped.
And it's pretzel logic to say we don't need the things the Bible says we need because we have the Bible.
Keep in mind Timothy probably did not have most of the New Testament. Some parts were written in regions far away.
If the Bible minus the book of Revelation made Timothy fully equipped, why do you accept the book of Revelation as inspired?
Cessationist would not conclude:
"We don't need love because we have the Bible."
"We don't need faith because we have the Bible."
"We don't need to abstain from sexual immorality because we have the Bible."
"We don't need water baptism because we have the Bible."
No, I was addressing the logic cessationists use when they misread what II Timothy 3 is saying.
I'm saying that it is foolish to say that the Bible is all you need to be fully equipped, and therefore you don't need the Holy Spirit. The Bible shows us that we need the Holy Spirit.
Likewise, it is foolish to say that we don't need spiritual gifts because we have the Bible. The Bible teaches us that we need spiritual gifts.
According to your interpretation, how can you say Revelation is needed for the man of God to be fully equipped if it did not exist yet when II Timothy 3 was written?
"We don't need love because we have the Bible."
"We don't need faith because we have the Bible."
"We don't need to abstain from sexual immorality because we have the Bible."
"We don't need water baptism because we have the Bible."
You are saying we deny the Holy Spirit being in the believer at the time of salvation and saying all gifts when the miraculous gifts are the only ones being disputed.
I'm saying that it is foolish to say that the Bible is all you need to be fully equipped, and therefore you don't need the Holy Spirit. The Bible shows us that we need the Holy Spirit.
Likewise, it is foolish to say that we don't need spiritual gifts because we have the Bible. The Bible teaches us that we need spiritual gifts.
Peter did not even have the complete New Testament canon. Neither did his readers.
How do you know? Epistles were circulated from church to church and other than what John wrote in the 90"s they would of had everything else.
then no one would be able to cast out demons. Why would God leave the demons roaming around with all kinds of power, but withdraw the power that the New Testament teaches that He has given to the church?
It sounds like you are basing scripture on your own conjecture. Christ asked, "by whom do your children cast themout"? So apparently, some Jews who weren't His disciples were casting demons out. Why would Christians be powerless?
Where does the Bible say the church would go back to being powerless to cast out demons? And why would second or third century authors use their power to cast demons, which Greeks considered 'gods', out of people as an apologetic for the faith if Christians weren't going around doing that?
Have you ever read any history on spiritual gifts throughout history? The general belief of the church throughout history has not been cessationist. When it comes ot casting out demons, Gregory winning the king of Armenia over after casting out a demon in the early fourth century comes to mind. Many, many healings and resurrections were attributed to the ministry of St. Patrick, some of them written much later. But the actual bits of writing of his that historians acknowledge tell us that he was directed on occasions by vision and voices he considered to be of divine origin
I think you mean Parham. I know he was accused of something bad, but it seems equally likely that he was slandered by his opponents.
The issue is what the Bible teaches on spiritual gifts, not Parhams life. There were churches operating in spiritual gifts before Charles Parham's Bible school in the US and elsewhere. There was even a prophetic movement in the Reformed movement that continued at least until John Wesley's day. As far as Pentecostalism goes, it emerged in at least three movements independently of each other, in India, South America, and the US. Four if you count Wales.
That’s correct we are not to mess with demons and no one can cast them out. I am not saying God doesn’t remove them because of prayer because he does.
Where does the Bible say the church would go back to being powerless to cast out demons? And why would second or third century authors use their power to cast demons, which Greeks considered 'gods', out of people as an apologetic for the faith if Christians weren't going around doing that?
Have you ever read any history on spiritual gifts throughout history? The general belief of the church throughout history has not been cessationist. When it comes ot casting out demons, Gregory winning the king of Armenia over after casting out a demon in the early fourth century comes to mind. Many, many healings and resurrections were attributed to the ministry of St. Patrick, some of them written much later. But the actual bits of writing of his that historians acknowledge tell us that he was directed on occasions by vision and voices he considered to be of divine origin
Your fully vested I get it, but I would encourage you to study American church history, look at the character of men like Perrin and others.
The issue is what the Bible teaches on spiritual gifts, not Parhams life. There were churches operating in spiritual gifts before Charles Parham's Bible school in the US and elsewhere. There was even a prophetic movement in the Reformed movement that continued at least until John Wesley's day. As far as Pentecostalism goes, it emerged in at least three movements independently of each other, in India, South America, and the US. Four if you count Wales.